KEEPING THE FAITH

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you talking about speaking in tongues?

No.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

Then I think I agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, wondering
It's no trouble.


It seems likely that God Himself set all of this in motion on purpose. Why was there forbidden fruit in the garden? What was the point? It seems to have been a complete setup from the very beginning. To be punished for exercising our own free will. Free will that we are given by this creator but not to ever exercise it. It's bizarre to say the least.

You ask really deep questions!
You're going to get some weird answers.
Who can know exactly why God put Adam and Eve in the Garden.
Maybe it was a test to see if we would freely love Him?
Maybe they were innocent and God didn't want them to know about evil, which was contained in the tree.
So they ate of the fruit and became acquainted with evil...terrible choice. This is what I believe BTW.
Why...because they lost it all after they ate of the fruit. They became aware of the evil and they became infected with it. This would be our sin nature. And they passed it down to each and every human by way of childbirth. Everything was infected, man and nature...even the necessary parts to make babies: sperm and eggs.

Do you think we don't exercise our free will?

Whatever happened, we must admit that those that wrote Genesis sure hit the nail on the head!
They wrote to teach why man's nature is the way it is and why we're so unreconciled to God, to each other and to nature.

This is why I believe God inspired the entire bible...
It may not have happened exactly as is written in Genesis 1,
but it sure explains everything really well. Even how the universe got started.
From nothing.

Well, I think those are great questions. I don't understand how anyone can take the OT stories literally and not come away with a sense that this any extremely evil God indeed.

The flooding of the world, near genocidal act. If not for Noah and his family being spared, it would have been a compete genocide of our species. And for what? For choosing to live how we want to, or how those people chose to live at the time. Again, it's yet another case of God punishing the human race for exercising our free will that have freely gave us.

OK. At some point it must be said that actual history begins in Genesis with the story of Abraham.
We can't be too sure of what happened before that, but we could learn from everything that is written in the stories before the story of Abraham and his descendants.

Another example would be the killing of the first born children of Egypt. These are innocent children that have no part in the struggles of the day, and yet God kills them anyway to push the Egyptians. Again, how is this not evil?

Not easy to answer or even to contemplate.
In the end it was Pharaoh that killed the first born.
I don't say this as an excuse for God...He doesn't need excuses.
But after seeing that 9 curses came true...Pharaoh still didn't believe the 10th could happen?
I guess God had to do something drastic to cause a drastic result.
I'd say that this is proof that we do have free will or God could have just programmed Pharaoh to free the Israelites.

I had someone on this forum just tell me that human beings are equivalent to clay pots and that God has the right to do with us as he wishes. This to me, is a window into the mind of abject slave. And what's more, there appears to be a burning desire among people like this to want to be a slave. To be ordered around and told what to do in ever facet of their lives. For the life of me, I cannot understand where this desire comes from or why anyone would want to live this way.

Agreed. This comes from Romans 9 and is a bunch of nonsense.
God didn't make us so He could torture us. Throughout the NT Jesus keeps talking about how God loves us and how we're to love Him back. I trust Jesus more than anyone that has such odd ideas. It's called Calvinism BTW. Odd ideas indeed.

Romans 6 states that we are slaves of the one to whom we present outselves.
I present myself to God .... keeping away from the evil one.
This allows me to be as free as Jesus said...
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
We are freed from satan when we serve God.
(and that is true freedom).

Certainly one wonders what the animals did to deserve their fate in all of this. Truth be told, probably nothing.

I bring up the animals because of philosophical reasoning.
No real use to get into it.
Do you know who Sam Harris is?
He talks about this a lot.
He's an atheist.

God would have had to intentionally create evil for it to exist. Given the story of the garden, if taken literally, it means he himself manipulated Adam and Eve into eating from a tree that he put there seemingly for no reason other than to cause the fall of man. I don't take the story literally, but there are those that do and I question how they can come away from the story thinking God is the good guy in this story.

It doesn't mean God manipulated Adam or Eve even if the story is real.
Adam used his free will or God would not have warned him about the tree.
If God warned him, it means it was up to him (Adam) to eat or not eat of the fruit.

Well it begs the question, why didn't God write the book himself? One would think that if you're trying to convey a message to mankind about your existence and who you are, you would be the one to write the book so that there are no contradictions and no question whatsoever that this is indeed the word of God.

But that's not what we get. What we get instead is a sort of all you can eat buffet of holy books and religions to choose from that require interpretation and mental gymnastics in order for one to think for a moment that it is divinely inspired.

How would God write the book?
People that lived FOUR THOUSAND years ago, at the time of the Hebrews (the iron age) would have a different way of understanding God...then God would have to write the book again for those living 1,000 years later and so on.

If effect, this is what He did!
That is why you see a change in God as you read on.
It's not that God is changing because that would be ludicrous...
but the way He reveals Himself to man changes.
Jesus, of course, being the last revelation.
Not too much more God can tell us.

The problem is that the religion itself a ton of issues that otherwise wouldn't be present. If you accept that a divine being had to create the universe in order for it to exist, that's fine. You will accept that this is a divine being that you will never understand in your lifetime.

But it becomes a real problem when you read the stories in the bible where God is portrayed as this character that gets directly involved in the lives of people. Either by helping them or killing them. There you have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics in order to try to figure out why he doesn't do this today.

My brother, a born again Christian too, has trouble when reading the bible.
I told him to stop reading it and just be with God and let God be a part of his life.
Pray and commune with Him. This is all many persons do and they have a healthy relationship with God.
But you have a lot of questions and I doubt this would be a good idea for you.
You'll have to come to understand God on your own terms.
(as long as they're biblical ! Don't go buying crystals and stuff!)

So it becomes really messy really fast. To me, the most logical assumption based on observing reality itself, is that God does exist, but he does not interfere with the material world one way or another. It's either that or he stopped interacting with us for seemingly no reason.

That's called Deism. God created everything also the earth and us, and then left us to ourselves.
It's possible.
But then why send Jesus?
Why do miracles happen?
It leaves us with too many questions.
I think God does involve Himself with us.
I think it's this problem of evil that turns everything upside down.
And there's just no answer.

 

[Riven]

Do you think we don't exercise our free will?

If God knows the future, I don't see how we can have free will. If all of the choices that we make in life are already set in stone and unchangeable, then the are no choices to be made. If there are no choices to be made, then how can we be eternally punished for making the wrong choice?

Not easy to answer or even to contemplate.
In the end it was Pharaoh that killed the first born.
I don't say this as an excuse for God...He doesn't need excuses.
But after seeing that 9 curses came true...Pharaoh still didn't believe the 10th could happen?
I guess God had to do something drastic to cause a drastic result.
I'd say that this is proof that we do have free will or God could have just programmed Pharaoh to free the Israelites.

But this depends on how much God knows. If God knows all of the decisions that Pharoh will make from the beginning of his life til the end, then I would argue that he never had the ability to choose. He was always going to say no because his future was already written.

I bring up the animals because of philosophical reasoning.
No real use to get into it.
Do you know who Sam Harris is?
He talks about this a lot.
He's an atheist.

Yes, I know of him. I've seen many of his lectures on free will.

It doesn't mean God manipulated Adam or Eve even if the story is real.
Adam used his free will or God would not have warned him about the tree.
If God warned him, it means it was up to him (Adam) to eat or not eat of the fruit.

But if Adams future was already known to God, how could Adam make a choice?

How would God write the book?
People that lived FOUR THOUSAND years ago, at the time of the Hebrews (the iron age) would have a different way of understanding God...then God would have to write the book again for those living 1,000 years later and so on.

The same way he created the universe? Do you think he couldn't have written the book himself?

If effect, this is what He did!
That is why you see a change in God as you read on.
It's not that God is changing because that would be ludicrous...
but the way He reveals Himself to man changes.
Jesus, of course, being the last revelation.
Not too much more God can tell us.

Well this is why I think having holy books written by human beings is a bad idea. As you know, this is how Islam began. The Qur'an is another book written by men that claims to be the divine word of God, and also claims to be the final revelation from God. Which I find to be most insidious.

My brother, a born again Christian too, has trouble when reading the bible.
I told him to stop reading it and just be with God and let God be a part of his life.
Pray and commune with Him. This is all many persons do and they have a healthy relationship with God.
But you have a lot of questions and I doubt this would be a good idea for you.
You'll have to come to understand God on your own terms.
(as long as they're biblical ! Don't go buying crystals and stuff!)

Yes, it is interesting because I have no trouble believing in God. The universe had a beginning, this is a scientific fact. Therefore, it is logical to assume that something existed before the universe that set it into motion.

But the bible takes this relatively simple and straight forward premise makes it extremely convoluted. It quickly becomes a Twlight Zone episode where now have to believe in talking snakes, magical fruit, a man walking on water, a man surviving inside the belly of a whale for three days, etc. It's a bit much.

That's called Deism. God created everything also the earth and us, and then left us to ourselves.
It's possible.
But then why send Jesus?
Why do miracles happen?
It leaves us with too many questions.
I think God does involve Himself with us.
I think it's this problem of evil that turns everything upside down.
And there's just no answer.

I don't know why Jesus was sent or even if he was sent. We have to make certain assumptions because all we have to go on is what's written in the bible.

I think a better question would be, why do miracles not happen today, or why are they far less common than they were thousands of years ago? This excludes televangelists performing miracles every Sunday. Don't get cheeky with me. Lol.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If God knows the future, I don't see how we can have free will.

If you open your hand upside down and release a stone, you know it will fall. Did it fall because you foresaw it? God’s knowing is due to superior intellect, but doesn’t affect our choice.

If all of the choices that we make in life are already set in stone and unchangeable, then the are no choices to be made.

They are not set in stone.

But this depends on how much God knows. If God knows all of the decisions that Pharoh will make from the beginning of his life til the end, then I would argue that he never had the ability to choose. He was always going to say no because his future was already written.

Again, His knowing doesn’t affect our choosing.

Yes, I know of him. I've seen many of his lectures on free will.


But if Adams future was already known to God, how could Adam make a choice?

Same answer.

The same way he created the universe? Do you think he couldn't have written the book himself?

Isn’t it preferable to do it as a team? He desires relationships not schooling.

Well this is why I think having holy books written by human beings is a bad idea.

Ah, but relationship is the goal, not communicating information.

As you know, this is how Islam began. The Qur'an is another book written by men that claims to be the divine word of God, and also claims to be the final revelation from God. Which I find to be most insidious.

The history of that book and contents and the faith lived out is insidious. There are fakers.

Yes, it is interesting because I have no trouble believing in God. The universe had a beginning, this is a scientific fact. Therefore, it is logical to assume that something existed before the universe that set it into motion.

But the bible takes this relatively simple and straight forward premise makes it extremely convoluted.

Well, do you think the alternative preferable? Nothing suddenly exploded and became everything. Is that better?

It quickly becomes a Twlight Zone episode where now have to believe in talking snakes, magical fruit, a man walking on water, a man surviving inside the belly of a whale for three days, etc. It's a bit much.

I know a man who walked on water although at the time he thought the river was just shallow. The snake is likely a metaphor although the events certainly not. Jonah likely died in the whale and was resurrected.

I don't know why Jesus was sent or even if he was sent. We have to make certain assumptions because all we have to go on is what's written in the bible.

You can test his teachings in real life.

I think a better question would be, why do miracles not happen today, or why are they far less common than they were thousands of years ago?

They happen today but westerners have trouble believing which limits God. I lived and worked in the 3rd world and their world view is different. Miracles I first saw happened there. They believe the spiritual world is real and so it’s easier for them to believe miracles are real too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Riven,

The Genesis account is a lot deeper than often assumed and what is more, it has explanatory power. I believe it happened as Moses, who talked with God face to face and not in dreams or visions, wrote that account. It explains perfectly why we are as we are. Evolution, the alternative, has huge holes and requires A LOT of faith.

 

[gordon777]

I don't know anyone that casts God into human patterns.
Sometimes I read analogies of how a father is like God in some way or other.
This could help in understanding something...but, personally, I don't care for analogies, although I've used them myself.

But you said the correct word: GLIMPSE
We have a glimpse of how God is.
I truly believe we cannot fully understand God except in the ways He has revealed to us.

What do you think God has not revealed to us.

Your thread is about keeping the faith, while not understanding the purpose of evil.

You also stated that some scholars believed there was no evil, it was the absence of good.

You believed that a hurricane was not the absence of a small breeze.



Did God teach man from the beginning, to rely on a persons reasoning, to rely on the serpents persuasion, or to be instructed by God instead.


Evil exists as that is what opposes God, and for the sake of faith, God is hidden ( Spirit) and the world is visible. ( non faith world)

God will be seen for ever soon, ( not hidden) and it is the time evil, ( all that is not of faith) will disappear. ( destroyed for ever.)



Threads that begin with showing there are no answers, cannot provide any faith, because it is through faith we have answers.

Adam and Eve had no answers to the serpent, but Christ answered the devil when satan came to tempt Him, only by scripture, as Christ came to fulfil all what was written of Him.



The people who are again, seen as in debate, ( even though you began saying it is a relaxed place for the thread) are showing only interest in going around in circles, of passing time, of being seen for their understanding, in a thread that has shown it wont even have answers, it is not the faith of Christ, who told He sent the Holy Spirit to give us understanding in all things He said to us. ( to be simple to what is evil, wise to what is good.)




Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you think God has not revealed to us.

You think we know everything about God?
Or is it an honest question?

Who or What IS God?
How did He begin the universe?
Why?
Did He create evil?
Is evil from a different god?
Why evil?
Why did He make humans?
Was He lonely?
Did He need entertainment?
Did He need to share His love?
Why did Jesus have to die?
God couldn't figure out another way to redeem us?
Did He create everything and then just go away or is He still with us?
Did we get the Trinity right?
How could 3 persons be in 1 God?

I could go on if you wish.

Your thread is about keeping the faith, while not understanding the purpose of evil.

If you understand the purpose of evil, you could share it with us.
Personally, I don't understand it and have as yet to hear a proper explanation for it.

You also stated that some scholars believed there was no evil, it was the absence of good.

You believed that a hurricane was not the absence of a small breeze.

Correct. I believe evil is real and tangible.
It's not the absence of something.

Did God teach man from the beginning, to rely on a persons reasoning, to rely on the serpents persuasion, or to be instructed by God instead.

If we believe in God, then we should be instructed by God.
Whether or not we always listen is a different matter.

Evil exists as that is what opposes God, and for the sake of faith, God is hidden ( Spirit) and the world is visible. ( non faith world)

God will be seen for ever soon, ( not hidden) and it is the time evil, ( all that is not of faith) will disappear. ( destroyed for ever.)

I think I could agree with the first sentence...I mean, God is not THAT hidden,,,
Agreed on the second sentence.

Threads that begin with showing there are no answers, cannot provide any faith, because it is through faith we have answers.

OK.
So answer all my questions at the top post.

Adam and Eve had no answers to the serpent, but Christ answered the devil when satan came to tempt Him, only by scripture, as Christ came to fulfil all what was written of Him.

The fruit looked good.
Most people see what is before them...
not everyone follows God, especially those that don't believe satan even exists.
If they REALLY believed evil was real, they would follow God. (or maybe not).

The people who are again, seen as in debate, ( even though you began saying it is a relaxed place for the thread) are showing only interest in going around in circles, of passing time, of being seen for their understanding, in a thread that has shown it wont even have answers, it is not the faith of Christ, who told He sent the Holy Spirit to give us understanding in all things He said to us. ( to be simple to what is evil, wise to what is good.)

We are not debating here. I don't see any debating going on in the sense that YOU mean it.
We are having a relaxing conversation as far as I can tell. I might have missed something or other.
You are obsessed with having answers. This is interesting - that you would believe you have all the answers.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would give us understanding - not answers to every question we might come up with.
Again, you could answer all my questions if you care to.

And I would say that we should be simple to what is good...
and wise to what is evil.
The opposite of what you stated.

Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Romans 16:19 means something different than what I THINK you believe.

Could you post it and explain how you understand it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We have to make certain assumptions because all we have to go on is what's written in the bible.

No, that's not all we have to go on. We have the testimony of the Holy Spirit to convict us of the truth:

6...it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.

9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:6-10

 

[Riven]

If you open your hand upside down and release a stone, you know it will fall. Did it fall because you foresaw it? God’s knowing is due to superior intellect, but doesn’t affect our choice.

I can see myself drop stone in my mind because it's my mind. But if given the choice to drop it or hold onto it, I can't do both at the same time.

If God knows that I'm going to drop the stone and not hold onto it, if he knew this before I was born, then the future is set because I can't perform an action that God has not already foreseen. Therefore, what we have at best, is the illusion of choice.

Isn’t it preferable to do it as a team? He desires relationships not schooling.

No.

Ah, but relationship is the goal, not communicating information.

A relationship requires communication.

The history of that book and contents and the faith lived out is insidious. There are fakers.

How do you know?

Well, do you think the alternative preferable? Nothing suddenly exploded and became everything. Is that better?

No. It's worse.

I know a man who walked on water although at the time he thought the river was just shallow. The snake is likely a metaphor although the events certainly not. Jonah likely died in the whale and was resurrected.

Well, that's the problem. One has to interpret these stories to try to make them more plausible in the modern age.

They happen today but westerners have trouble believing which limits God. I lived and worked in the 3rd world and their world view is different. Miracles I first saw happened there. They believe the spiritual world is real and so it’s easier for them to believe miracles are real too.

So belief in God is directly tied to his ability to manifest in this world? Miracles being more common in third world countries is not surprising. They're far more superstitious and less educated than first world people.

 

[Riven]

No, that's not all we have to go on. We have the testimony of the Holy Spirit to convict us of the truth:

6...it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.

9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:6-10

Which is found in the bible.

 

[Riven]

Riven,

The Genesis account is a lot deeper than often assumed and what is more, it has explanatory power. I believe it happened as Moses, who talked with God face to face and not in dreams or visions, wrote that account. It explains perfectly why we are as we are. Evolution, the alternative, has huge holes and requires A LOT of faith.

Yes, I agree. It does explain the origins of the universe. Frankly, Genesis 1:1 is fantastic. It explains everything in one verse. The inquisitive mind, or perhaps a cynical one, may ask, who then created God? But in order for the universe to exist, there must be an eternal being that exists outside of it.

The only other alternative is that the universe itself is eternal. Many atheists believe this despite it being contradicted by the cosmological evidence which shows that the universe is expanding at a faster and faster rate. It had a beginning.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can see myself drop stone in my mind because it's my mind. But if given the choice to drop it or hold onto it, I can't do both at the same time.

But did your knowing it would drop affect its dropping?

If God knows that I'm going to drop the stone and not hold onto it, if he knew this before I was born, then the future is set because I can't perform an action that God has not already foreseen. Therefore, what we have at best, is the illusion of choice.

You are underestimating God’s cognitive ability. There’s a lot we now know from scientific research, but our knowing has no effect in it happening.

No.

You don’t think team work in relationships is preferable to being alone? Really? Don’t you think family is nice?

A relationship requires communication.

He did that from day 1. He walked in the garden with man daily.

How do you know?

I informed myself as to the origins of the Koran and Mohammed himself and what fully islamic nations are like today and always.

No. It's worse.

Ok we agree. Nothing becoming everything for no reason is worse than a personal beginning.

Well, that's the problem. One has to interpret these stories to try to make them more plausible in the modern age.

I don’t agree but maybe this needs to be explored. I don’t see anyone interpreting these accounts.

So belief in God is directly tied to his ability to manifest in this world?

Well, this requires some thought. Out of the gate I’d say no but it’s not entirely off. I’ll think about it some.

Miracles being more common in third world countries is not surprising. They're far more superstitious and less educated than first world people.

Well, I laughed. The first world teaches people there’s nothing but material substance. It comes not from truth but philosophy. So healing isn’t an option. I mean I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and walked. You can call that “superstition” but her legs were suddenly able to bear weight.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which is found in the bible.

It's not about believing just because it's in the Bible. It's about believing because God shows you that what's in the Bible really is true.

God gives this supernatural ability to know the gospel is true so you can then receive it and be saved if you want to. But most people reject the supernatural testimony of God by the Holy Spirit and are not saved and will not enter into the kingdom at the end of the age.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God knows that I'm going to drop the stone and not hold onto it, if he knew this before I was born, then the future is set because I can't perform an action that God has not already foreseen. Therefore, what we have at best, is the illusion of choice.

The reason this matter of free will is so difficult for people to grasp is because they are always trying to make it either you have complete and total free will or you have no free will at all. It's neither of those. You are free to willingly move about in the confines of the circumstances God has established for you. What you do with the free will you have will determine your eternal fate.

At some point in your life God opens up the opportunity for you to freely receive or reject his offer of life. He does that through the testimony of the Holy Spirit showing you that the gospel really is true. What you do with that freedom to decide determines if you will be saved or not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Riven

You asked if belief in God is directly tied to his manifesting Himself in the world.

There are different reasons why people come to believe. CS Lewis was led there by intellectual reasons. Some have an experience. I think I think God has his part and we have ours. People saw Jesus. They saw obvious miracles. They heard his irrefutable teaching and still refuses to believe. Why?

Most likely they didn’t want to do so. Believing isn’t free. One can no longer live as one chooses. One is aware that Someone is keeping track of one’s behaviour. “Thou shalt not” suddenly has weight. There are other prices to be paid as well.

 

[JLB]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

I put this in The Lounge so it could be a more relaxing conversation
and verses don't necessarily have to be used, however treat it as you like.

They like so many of us when we first start out, struggle to remain in Christ.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The number one thing I would encourage anyone who struggles to remain in Christ is Heaven is overjoyed when you return to Him... so dont give up!




JLB

 

[Riven]

But did your knowing it would drop affect its dropping?

Only in that I could predict the outcome.

You are underestimating God’s cognitive ability. There’s a lot we now know from scientific research, but our knowing has no effect in it happening.

No, I'm not. I'm trying to understand his cognitive abilities. I am not comfortable only observing the surface of the ocean. I want to know what's below the surface.

You don’t think team work in relationships is preferable to being alone? Really? Don’t you think family is nice?

Yes, but in matters of conveying important infornation, one doesn't need a relationship, they need accurate instruction.

He did that from day 1. He walked in the garden with man daily.

And quickly kicked him out for eating an apple.

I don’t agree but maybe this needs to be explored. I don’t see anyone interpreting these accounts.

Maybe change is the better word.

Well, I laughed. The first world teaches people there’s nothing but material substance. It comes not from truth but philosophy. So healing isn’t an option. I mean I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and walked. You can call that “superstition” but her legs were suddenly able to bear weight.

If this is the case, it's a miracle when taken at face value. But what's more likely? That the laws of the universe were temporarily suspended in your favor, and in hers, or that you were under a misapprehension and she was capable of walking the whole time?

 

[Riven]

Riven

You asked if belief in God is directly tied to his manifesting Himself in the world.

There are different reasons why people come to believe. CS Lewis was led there by intellectual reasons. Some have an experience. I think I think God has his part and we have ours. People saw Jesus. They saw obvious miracles. They heard his irrefutable teaching and still refuses to believe. Why?

Most likely they didn’t want to do so. Believing isn’t free. One can no longer live as one chooses. One is aware that Someone is keeping track of one’s behaviour. “Thou shalt not” suddenly has weight. There are other prices to be paid as well.

Yes, I've thought of this before I cannot understand how one could have witnessed Jesus walking on water for instance, and not believe. That would seal the deal for me.

As for big brother watching, I find it deeply disturbing indeed. The idea that even in our most private moments, we are never not under God's supervision. It's sort of like The Truman Show. Great movie, by the way.

 

[Riven]

The reason this matter of free will is so difficult for people to grasp is because they are always trying to make it either you have complete and total free will or you have no free will at all. It's neither of those. You are free to willingly move about in the confines of the circumstances God has established for you. What you do with the free will you have will determine your eternal fate.

At some point in your life God opens up the opportunity for you to freely receive or reject his offer of life. He does that through the testimony of the Holy Spirit showing you that the gospel really is true. What you do with that freedom to decide determines if you will be saved or not.

What are the circumstances?