Key insights from Thessalonians that build a foundational understanding about His coming.

[JLB]

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:4



Insight number 1

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13

1. At the coming of the Lord, Jesus will bring with him, those saints who are in heaven, that have died and are to receive their immortal bodies along with those who are to be raptured.

IOW, at His coming, Jesus is coming with the Church in heaven, for the Church on earth.


A view from heaven – context read Revelation 19:1-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14

Also read Zechariah 14:1-5 – the day of the Lord -V.5



Insight number 2


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

2. The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.

We who alive and remain – the rapture
Those who are asleep – the resurrection of the dead in Christ



Insight number 3

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

3. The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs just before the rapture

• the dead in Christ will rise first​

Insight number 4

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

4. The resurrected ones and the raptured ones are caught up together and will always be with the Lord.

This is called the gathering, where the entire body of Christ is gathered together unto him, in which we will always be with him.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him… 2 Thessalonians 2:1



Insight number 5

For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:2

5. The coming of the Lord is the day of the Lord

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul calls this the day of Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2



Insight number 6

For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

6. At His coming the wicked will be destroyed.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



Insight number 7

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4

7. The day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the church.



Insight number 8

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9

8. The coming of the Lord, which is the day of the Lord, is wrath for the wicked but salvation for the church who are caught up together with the Lord in the air and will be with Him as he returns to earth to put an end to the wicked.


Then comes the rest for a thousand years.

 

[JLB]

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:13-17

• These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

• Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

• They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.

• And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:13-17

• These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

• Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

• They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.

• And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

Why no discussion of the first fruits of the harvest?
Them who are sealed before these people are saved?

 

[JLB]

Why no discussion of the first fruits of the harvest?
Them who are sealed before these people are saved?

If you have something to share concerning the topic of this thread then please do so using scripture.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

If you have something to share concerning the topic of this thread then please do so using scripture.

Well you mentioned them who are saved during the great tribulation but them who recieve the name of God in their foreheads,you didn't mention.

The 144,000 who follow the lamb wherever he goes.Them who are the first fruits of the harvest,redeemed from the soil.


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.





The first fruits are gathered at the time of harvest. They are brought to the high priest in Jerusalem .
These are the elect who the angels gather at the time of Christs coming.


Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



First,there are the first fruits
Then later the regular harvest.

 

[Marilyn C]

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:4

Hi JLB,

Some good insight there. Just a point. The word `Day` in Hebrew and Greek means - a period of time and a specific day.
It all depends on the context. Now you have confused the two and made them all appear as though the Day is a specific day when in actual fact some of your scriptures refer to the Day as a period of time.

Day -Specific: 1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18, Rev. 19: 11 - 14, Zech. 14: 1 - 5, 2 Thess. 2: 1 & 8, 1 Thess. 5: 9. also Rev. 6: 12 - 17.

Day - Period of time: 1 Thess. 5: 1 - 5 (note times & seasons, periods of time) 2 Thess. 2 : 3 & 4, also Joel 2: 1- 20, Zeph. 1: 14 - 18.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

Some good insight there. Just a point. The word `Day` in Hebrew and Greek means - a period of time and a specific day.
It all depends on the context. Now you have confused the two and made them all appear as though the Day is a specific day when in actual fact some of your scriptures refer to the Day as a period of time.

Day -Specific: 1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18, Rev. 19: 11 - 14, Zech. 14: 1 - 5, 2 Thess. 2: 1 & 8, 1 Thess. 5: 9. also Rev. 6: 12 - 17.

Day - Period of time: 1 Thess. 5: 1 - 5 (note times & seasons, periods of time) 2 Thess. 2 : 3 & 4, also Joel 2: 1- 20, Zeph. 1: 14 - 18.

The point I made was the coming of the Lord was the Day of the Lord which Paul also calls the Day of Christ.




For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2


again


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

 

[JLB]

Well you mentioned them who are saved during the great tribulation but them who recieve the name of God in their foreheads,you didn't mention.

• These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These were not saved during the great tribulation but they were martyred.

They were in heaven and therefore have died.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

• These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These were not saved during the great tribulation but they were martyred.

They were in heaven and therefore have died.

No,they are saved out of the great tribulation.
They are delivered at that time.
They have not died.I believe most people refer to it as a rapture when someone is delivered and have not died.


Below is when the great tribulation takes place.If you would please notice,no one is being martyred during the great tribulation.They are being delivered and resurected as the text shows.


Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.



The martyrs of Christ are killed during the previous 42 months starting in Daniel 11:33-35 before the great tribulation in Daniel 12:1 even begins.


Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The 144,000 though.They are the first fruits of the harvest as scripture says.

They are redeemed from.earth.
The dead in Christ rise first.

 

[JLB]

No,they are saved out of the great tribulation.
They are delivered at that time.
They have not died.I believe most people refer to it as a rapture when someone is delivered and have not died.

The rapture and resurrection occur at His coming. Revelation 19


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The rapture and resurrection occur at His coming. Revelation 19


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

I know it does.
Christians are not martyred at Christs coming at the time of the great tribulation.They are delivered at that time.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.


The christians in Israel are martyred during the previous 42 months .The persecution ends when the great tribulation begins.

 

[for_his_glory]

At the coming of the Lord, Jesus will bring with him, those saints who are in heaven, that have died and are to receive their immortal bodies along with those who are to be raptured.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

No one that has ever died has gone to heaven. The only thing that returns back to God when we die is the very breath that God breathed in us making us a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This all happens on the last day after the the 3 1/2 years tribulation period such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21. After the tribulation then Jesus returns on the last day as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth as the dead will be raised first and we which are still alive will be caught up with them as all are then changed as we are caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; John 6:40.

 

[JLB]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

No one that has ever died has gone to heaven. The only thing that returns back to God when we die is the very breath that God breathed in us making us a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This all happens on the last day after the the 3 1/2 years tribulation period such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21. After the tribulation then Jesus returns on the last day as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth as the dead will be raised first and we which are still alive will be caught up with them as all are then changed as we are caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; John 6:40.

What is your point?

 

[for_his_glory]

What is your point?

My point comes from what you posted in the OP that I disagree with about there being saints in heaven right now that have died.

You said: "At the coming of the Lord, Jesus will bring with him, those saints who are in heaven, that have died and are to receive their immortal bodies along with those who are to be raptured.