What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

    Read daily articles from Focus on the Family in the Marriage and Parenting Resources forum.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

    Read The Gospel Online.

Kids Fighting Back

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,048.00
Goal
$1,038.00
Donate View
Boidae21 said:
You are indeed correct, but be rest assured my salvation is still secure.
Click to expand...
If you are one of those who believe that how we actually live has no consequences in respect to final salvation, I suggest that this is not a Biblical position. Of course, many people believe this, and are, I fear, in some danger. Of course, this issue transcends the issue of "self-defence".

One of the most dangerous heresies of modern times is this belief that "one you're saved", you can "get away" with sinning without placing final salvation at risk. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Drew said:
If you are one of those who believe that how we actually live has no consequences in respect to final salvation, I suggest that this is not a Biblical position. Of course, many people believe this, and are, I fear, in some danger. Of course, this issue transcends the issue of "self-defence".

One of the most dangerous heresies of modern times is this belief that "one you're saved", you can "get away" with sinning without placing final salvation at risk. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that, but I do not believe that defending oneself is a sin. This I believe is where our theologies differ.

I do not go around sinning because I feel I can do whatever I want, but I do sin as do all humans.
 
Drew said:
My intent was to address how Jesus engaged evil.

In this respect:

(1) I suspect he never compromised;

(2) While He may have "run away" before His time (i.e. to avoid getting stoned), I suggest He needed to do this to finish His work. At the end of the day, in the sense that counted, He "faced" evil;

(3) He never used force to engage evil.
Click to expand...
So...what you're saying is that Jesus did not have to deal with life as a human being while on this earth. I thought a big part of His purpose on earth was to humble himself to the point of human existance to be for us the perfect example.
 
WIP said:
So...what you're saying is that Jesus did not have to deal with life as a human being while on this earth. I thought a big part of His purpose on earth was to humble himself to the point of human existance to be for us the perfect example.
Click to expand...
I am saying no such thing.

To be a perfect example for us does not mean that He has to:

1. compromise with evil;
2. avoid engagement with evil;
3. use violence to combat evil.
 
This is a very different POV I'm suggesting, because I'm 44 and just now seeing things differently. I see all these posts arguing for fighting back, and I see all the arguments I made which didn't consider scripture. I don't expect to change anyone's mind about this, because it truly comes down to the heart. someone can espouse a response that makes perfect sense in this world and seldom use scripture to support it. I did it, and now I don't see the value in it when considering what Jesus very clearly Told us. He Said a lot of things that flew in the face of society's thinking. I don't think it's honest to base my stance on my feelings, so I'm forced to put His Word ahead of my natural inclination.

I guess I'm saying, don't stop short of what He Told us and dismiss His statements without considering that you are neglecting it. This is important! If you can weigh what He Said and come away feeling okay with fighting back, then at least you've made an honest choice, but just don't dismiss it. He Told us not to do these things for His Purpose.

I'm not talking about defending ourselves from attacks. I'm talking about fighting back with blows ourselves.
 
We need to learn from Christ.

Christ did face trouble from people who want to take His life right from His childhood. Jesus did self-defend.

The issue really is, how you define self defense. Jesus self defended Himself by running away. When they try to stone Him, He ran away. He did not catch the stones or dodged or fought back but hid and ran. It is the self defense Christ is teaching us. He did not ask us to stay where trouble is and do the act of 'self defending'.

The self-defense which He teaches is to hide and run away. People who do not want to hide and do not want to run away from trouble, have the very intent in their heart to fight back only to justify themselves to call it 'self-defense', which is not a teaching of Christ.

So, what are we supposed to teach our kids? Hide and run away.
 
felix said:
We need to learn from Christ.

Christ did face trouble from people who want to take His life right from His childhood. Jesus did self-defend.

The issue really is, how you define self defense. Jesus self defended Himself by running away. When they try to stone Him, He ran away. He did not catch the stones or dodged or fought back but hid and ran. It is the self defense Christ is teaching us. He did not ask us to stay where trouble is and do the act of 'self defending'.

The self-defense which He teaches is to hide and run away. People who do not want to hide and do not want to run away from trouble, have the very intent in their heart to fight back only to justify themselves to call it 'self-defense', which is not a teaching of Christ.

So, what are we supposed to teach our kids? Hide and run away.
Click to expand...

I did that as well. There are only so many places one can run to before the bullies catch you. A bully can be very patient and just wait for the next chance to beat you up. They will keep waiting till they can do what they want to do. Many times running and hiding from them just makes things worse and when they do finally catch you, the beatings can be worse.

Running and hiding only delays the inevitable.
 
You who are saying to not defend yourself have to understand something. I was the only who was bullied from the second grade. I did all your suggestions and then some and none of them ever worked or only worked till the next day.

You're not talking to someone who was beat up once or twice. I can't count how many times I was beat up or bullied. I even got my ankle broken by some kid. My nose busted. Bruised and bloodied up on numerous occasions.

It wasn't till I fought back that it all ended. Just one time is all it took for them to realize that I wouldn't allow them to do what they had been doing for years to me anymore.

My kids will not go through what I did. I will die before allow them to go through what I did. They will continue to defend themselves when needed and they're dad will be proud of them when they do as I was when my oldest son defended his little sister.
 
Mike said:
This is a very different POV I'm suggesting, because I'm 44 and just now seeing things differently. I see all these posts arguing for fighting back, and I see all the arguments I made which didn't consider scripture. I don't expect to change anyone's mind about this, because it truly comes down to the heart. someone can espouse a response that makes perfect sense in this world and seldom use scripture to support it. I did it, and now I don't see the value in it when considering what Jesus very clearly Told us. He Said a lot of things that flew in the face of society's thinking. I don't think it's honest to base my stance on my feelings, so I'm forced to put His Word ahead of my natural inclination.

I guess I'm saying, don't stop short of what He Told us and dismiss His statements without considering that you are neglecting it. This is important! If you can weigh what He Said and come away feeling okay with fighting back, then at least you've made an honest choice, but just don't dismiss it. He Told us not to do these things for His Purpose.

I'm not talking about defending ourselves from attacks.
Click to expand...
If 'turn the other cheek ' is the final word you should take pains to aid your attacker
I'm talking about fighting back with blows ourselves.
Click to expand...
It might take two or three PhDs in philosophy to really grasp the distinction here.

This one is easier for me;
Ecclesiastes 3

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17361">1</sup>To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17362">2</sup>A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17363">3</sup>A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17364">4</sup>A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17365">5</sup>A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17366">6</sup>A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17367">7</sup>A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17368">8</sup>A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17369">9</sup>What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17370">10</sup>I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17371">11</sup>He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.




There is a solitary figure in Scripture.One man described in a way unique in the Bible, and though he lacked no human frailty the Holy Spirit says this;

a man after My own heart


 
Last edited by a moderator:
Boidae21 said:
It wasn't till I fought back that it all ended.
Click to expand...

I was bullied in my childhood and they beat me well. I was hurt and I went to my dad to complain. My dad asked a simple question: "Was your hand plucking flowers when they beat you?". The next day when they bullied, I did a simple and a powerful slap before everyone in the class which no one expected because the other guy nearly fainted. Then 4 guys and all of them 3 years older then me actually surrounded me to beat me. I took the water bottle full of water and swinged towards their head which made their head swollen and a few tooth came out for them. Then I ran and hide myself. The next day the school headmaster called me and my mother along with other 4 guys parents. My mother asked a simple question to headmaster: Do you want me to believe that my son who is half the size of these 4 giants beat and hurt them?

The problem is, every kid is different. I was grown up very differently by my parents who taught me to handle bullying problems myself which I did effectively. Teaching a kid to fight back could backfire in a way he could become a future gangster or a murderer if his act of fighting back in not controlled. Being bullied by his own mates will also abuse him with zero self confidence and isolation.

I believe, what is best for the kid is to handle himself/herself. The kid knows when he will be bullied and how to escape based on learnings from past bullying experiences. When my father didn't do anything, I actually studied why they were bullying me and why can't I do the same to them or stop them. I even learnt that they are not stronger than me (as I am an athlete) but it is the way they portray themselves to be stronger. The moment I showed that they are weaker by a powerful simple slap before everyone in the class, they no longer messed with me. In fact, they actually became friends during the later part of my schooling.

So, what should a weak kid do? He or she will soon learn to become friends with the person who is stronger than the person who is bullying or hurting him. Well, parents cannot see the politics of a kid but they know based on their own experience which cannot be taught but only the kid can learn themselves.
 
felix said:
Teaching a kid to fight back could backfire in a way he could become a future gangster or a murderer if his act of fighting back in not controlled..
Click to expand...

Could backfire? I suppose you're right, but you teach your children as I have that there will be serious consequences if I find out that they hit with out being hit first. Just as a hunter teaches their child to respect the gun that they hunt with.

My children will not grow up to be thugs and murderers just because I taught them to defend themselves.
 
In the Words of our Lord.

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So i guess we are to teach our children to only answer ' yea' or 'nay' while turning the cheek.
 
Boidae21 said:
Could backfire? I suppose you're right, but you teach your children as I have that there will be serious consequences if I find out that they hit with out being hit first. Just as a hunter teaches their child to respect the gun that they hunt with.

My children will not grow up to be thugs and murderers just because I taught them to defend themselves.
Click to expand...
I like your common sense!
 
Drew said:
False choice.

Yes, Jesus came to redeem man, but that truth does not mean that Jesus did not also abolish the law. Jesus clearly challenged the Law of Moses many times:

1. He represented Himself, not the temple as the "location" for forgiveness of sin. This directly contradicts the Law!!!

2. He indicated that all foods are clean. This directly contradicts the Law!!!

3. He came into contact with lepers and other unclean persons - intentionally making Himself "ritually unclean". This violates the Law!!!!

4. He worked on the Sabbath - again, a challenge to the Law;

5. He declared Himself to be the "true temple" - if not a violation of the Law, this was a radical challenge to it.

....and I suspect there are other examples as well.

I am frankly astonished that, given the wealth of evidence that Jesus was announcing a new "order" that replaced the system of the Law of Moses, that anyone would suggest that Jesus affirmed the Law of Moses.
Click to expand...


DIDNT YOU READ I CORRECTED MYSELF

and when did jesus change this from the law
exodus 23
<SUP>4</SUP>If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2150 class=versenum>5</SUP>If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
Click to expand...

and in proverbs
25

<SUP>21</SUP>If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
<SUP id=en-KJV-17136 class=versenum>22</SUP>For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
Click to expand...

I AM Shocked that you didnt know that!

its not new so he cant be talking about that type of stuff as they knew that or he would have quoted that verse to them. funny in two books that is shown and one of them is the law! a command from moses to help your enemy!

wow!
 
Lewis W said:
Yeah they do my little grand kids fight each other over toys all the time. Kids in school have fights all the time and it is a everyday thing here in Philadelphia. Months ago I posted on this board the violence that goes on in the Philadelphia schools on this board, and when I find it I will post it again. But yes Dora that is what kids do they are not mature enough or have not had any home training to deal with conflict so they fight. Here in Philly the kids fight the teachers. And if you think that is not what kids do look at the below link. Here in Philly violence is a way of life, I hate it but what can I do. In one or 2 cases 5 year old,s attacked teachers here in Philly. We have cops stationed in our schools so what does that tell you.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Philadelphia school violence&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2-ytff-tyc

Teacher attacked
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt... teacher attacked&fr2=sb-top&fr=moz2-ytff-tyc
Click to expand...

we have a few kids that do that in church they will punch each other and fight if we dont quickly control them.

it doesnt happen every sunday but alot more then i like.

but i feel for nathan if he ever does that. i will take him to the trees in the distance and properly educate him on personal control.:biggrin
 
If you don't follow Drew's theology then you are going against what is commanded, according to him anyway.

I don't subscribe to Drew's theology. I'm also a saved Christian no matter what his twisted interpretation of the bible is.

We never have agreed on this point and we never will it appears.

I'm teaching my kids to stand up for themselves with only the force that is necessary.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top