Kids Fighting Back

[Lewis]

Drew let me ask you this question, and it is only for you, would you just stand there and let someone beat you to death or your mother or your kids. Now this is a question from me to you. I want a straight answer nothing else.

 

[Drew]

Drew let me ask you this question, and it is only for you, would you just stand there and let someone beat you to death or your mother or your kids. Now this is a question from me to you. I want a straight answer nothing else.

I have already addressed this - please see post 220.

 

[Lewis]

I very much agree with this distinction. Although my posts may lead people to think otherwise, I am not advocating a "stand there and take it" response to violence. I would say that its OK to "fend off blows", or to try to "disarm", even through physical actions. But, as I think you are saying, once you cross the line to one where you make the injuring of your opponent the objective, then I think you have gone too far. I recognize this "line" is not clear in many situations. But I am not suggesting that people "let themselves get punched".

Drew ok, but how about protecting the wife the kids your mom and so on ?

 

[Drew]

Drew ok, but how about protecting the wife the kids your mom and so on ?

I would say that the same general principle applies. You can take defensive actions to protect your family. I suspect you are going to say that, in some cases, the only way to protect your family is to take offensive actions in the context of a general effort to defend kith and kin - to punch in the face, use a gun, etc. Well, I do not think such actions can be reconciled with the gospel. That does not mean that I would do such things - who can say how they will act under such a circumstance?

 

[Lewis]

I would say that the same general principle applies. You can take defensive actions to protect your family. I suspect you are going to say that, in some cases, the only way to protect your family is to take offensive actions in the context of a general effort to defend kith and kin - to punch in the face, use a gun, etc. Well, I do not think such actions can be reconciled with the gospel. That does not mean that I would do such things - who can say how they will act under such a circumstance?

Drew for the first time on this subject and the others that you have been involved in, talking about this very same thing. I can truly say that this is the first time that I heard you say the right thing. and that is

(who can say how they will act under such a circumstance?)

 

[GojuBrian]

Clearly, the distinction between defensive and offensive actions needs to be defined. I don't know why.....seems like common sense to me.

How on earth can any actions I take be seen as offensive if I'm the one being attacked???

Someone breaks in my house to do who knows what and I shoot them..?
Defensive

Someone tries to take my purse and I kick them in the nuggets..?
Defensive

Someone tries to rape me and I squish their Johnson..??
Defensive

Force has to be met with force, but without excessive force.
A physical attack has to be met with a physical defense.
A deadly attack has to be met with lethal force.
You don't meet deadly force with teddy bears and lollipops....

 

[Lewis]

Clearly, the distinction between defensive and offensive actions needs to be defined. I don't know why.....seems like common sense to me.

How on earth can any actions I take be seen as offensive if I'm the one being attacked???

Someone breaks in my house to do who knows what and I shoot them..?
Defensive

Someone tries to take my purse and I kick them in the nuggets..?
Defensive

Someone tries to rape me and I squish their Johnson..??
Defensive

Force has to be met with force, but without excessive force.
A physical attack has to be met with a physical defense.
A deadly attack has to be met with lethal force.
You don't meet deadly force with teddy bears and lollipops....

I am with you

 

[Hitch]

Clearly, the distinction between defensive and offensive actions needs to be defined. I don't know why.....seems like common sense to me.

How on earth can any actions I take be seen as offensive if I'm the one being attacked???

Someone breaks in my house to do who knows what and I shoot them..?
Defensive

Someone tries to take my purse and I kick them in the nuggets..?
Defensive

Someone tries to rape me and I squish their Johnson..??
Defensive

Force has to be met with force, but without excessive force.
A physical attack has to be met with a physical defense.
A deadly attack has to be met with lethal force.
You don't meet deadly force with teddy bears and lollipops....

Yup.

 

[Boidae21]

Yup.

I'll third it.

I'm sorry, but standing there and just blocking blows does absolutely nothing except tick them off some more.

Been there, done that and had the bruises from blocking blows for several days, along with the bruises and bloody nose that I got when he got through my defenses. That was just one time.

It took many years before I finally did what I should have done from day one.

You can go ahead Drew and keep saying that just because it works it doesn't mean its what we should do and you're right, in some cases, absolutely you're right, but we live in a fallen world and sometimes we absolutely must respond with equal force to keep from being a punching bag.

Just because you hit back doesn't mean you're automatically on the offensive, it's still very much defensive when you're attacked first. You are defending yourself against an aggressor.

Drew, I seriously doubt you're going to change minds here and it's obvious that your own mind will not be changed.

Maybe it's time to lay this horse to rest?

 

[Drew]

Someone breaks in my house to do who knows what and I shoot them..?
Defensive

No. This is an offensive action - an action designed to kill. This cannot be reconciled with the gospel imperative to love our enemies.

Shooting someone cannot be construed as an act of love.

Someone tries to take my purse and I kick them in the nuggets..?
Defensive

No. The "defensive" action here is to let the person take your purse.

Someone tries to rape me and I squish their Johnson..??
Defensive

Like the other examples, this is not really a defensive action.

Force has to be met with force, but without excessive force.

Here is the problem:

So many things Jesus said contradict this notion that "force has to be met with force". We are told to turn the other cheek. We are told to love our enemies. We are told to take up our crosses.

As shocking as it may seem to some, our coming out of some encounter "alive and well" is not the prime consideration. For those who would follow Jesus, it is obedience to the kingdom values Jesus taught and modeled.

And Jesus clearly repudiates the use of force to achieve goals. When He was before Pilate he explains that it is the very nature of the kingdom that He is initiating that explains why His disciples are not fighting to procure His freedom.

 

[Drew]

You can go ahead Drew and keep saying that just because it works it doesn't mean its what we should do and you're right, in some cases, absolutely you're right, but we live in a fallen world and sometimes we absolutely must respond with equal force to keep from being a punching bag.

Which is more important to you?

1. Surviving some violent encounter;
2. Obedience to Jesus if, repeat if, Jesus tells us to not use force as a mode of dealing with evil?

 

[Boidae21]

Which is more important to you?

1. Surviving some violent encounter;
2. Obedience to Jesus if, repeat if, Jesus tells us to not use force as a mode of dealing with evil?

If my wife or children are by my side, you better believe I will do my best to survive to be sure that they are ok.

Number two is a huge IF because I do not believe that Jesus wants us to be punching bags in the least.

1 Timothy 5:8 KJV

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Protection also falls under the word provide as in provide protection.

I guess we can't stop beating the dead horse, huh?

 

[GojuBrian]

We have a completely different mindset on the intent of the gospel, Drew.

Let me say this:
If all Christians did what you think the gospel tells us to do, there wouldn't be any Christians alive today.

 

[Lewis]

Drew you can knock someones block off and still love them in the name of Jesus. And even though you have the love of Jesus in you, you are not to stand there and let someone stomp you into the ground until you reach China on the other side of the earth.

 

[jasoncran]

No. This is an offensive action - an action designed to kill. This cannot be reconciled with the gospel imperative to love our enemies.

Shooting someone cannot be construed as an act of love.


No. The "defensive" action here is to let the person take your purse.


Like the other examples, this is not really a defensive action.


Here is the problem:

So many things Jesus said contradict this notion that "force has to be met with force". We are told to turn the other cheek. We are told to love our enemies. We are told to take up our crosses.

As shocking as it may seem to some, our coming out of some encounter "alive and well" is not the prime consideration. For those who would follow Jesus, it is obedience to the kingdom values Jesus taught and modeled.

And Jesus clearly repudiates the use of force to achieve goals. When He was before Pilate he explains that it is the very nature of the kingdom that He is initiating that explains why His disciples are not fighting to procure His freedom.

let them rob you? let them attack you?

hmm thats laughable then so you dont tell the police that you got raped, robbed?

come on drew.

i will ask if the entire earthly goverment are HIS? then law enforcement and the military arent?

drew, with my military id and one could in a remote possibility harm the national security. i dont think i will let that happen.

so if the guy wants to rape my wife, dont fight it, just let him take her and me alive and HOPE that God sends that evil sinner to save us.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

I AM A VICTIM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT! i was assaulted by a bisesxual male. i should have turned him in after a good beat down. but i didnt and God knows how many other men he got if not captured.

their blood if any deaths is in part on my hands. I WILL NOT, make that mistake again.he only groped me, but i cant imagine what other horrid things he did.I doubt i was his first time or if i was it enbolden him.

 

[jruner]

You have to fight back (sometimes), you have to protect others. I have had to carry a concealed weapon for work (animal control job) before, never had to use it but but had talk someone else out of shooting me! Please defend yourselves. You don't ever start the fight as has been stated before.

My wife and I are both abuse survivors her of clergy and I of family. If we didn't fight back we would both be dead right now!

All people have a right to defend themselves.

The sad thing to me is that the underlying cause for the bullying people can endure many times could resolved with love and without returned violence. Love from a friend,mentor, parent and above all God.

John Runer

 

[darkpassenger]

I tried to post once and I don't think it went through, so I'll try to post it again.

I have read through a few pages and I couldn't read anymore. This is my first post and I am going to direct it at Drew.

You say using evil to stop evil is wrong but what do you know of evil? I'd like to know what you do for a living. It is probably an office job or something like that. Something safe where you are not questioned or put into life or death situations.

I am a police officer in a bad city. I have to deal with use of force often whether it be all out fighting or just getting someone in cuffs that's resisting. I have drove 120 MPH towards houses I may get killed in or have to kill in. I have responded to calls where people are getting robbed at gunpoint, where people are getting kidnapped and where houses are getting broken into. You know nothing of evil if you stand by your opinion on what the Bible teaches.

You say you can't shoot someone out of love. That is a horrible lie. If someone pulls a gun on me and I shoot them, I am shooting them out of love. Love for my wife and family. If a drug addict addict is going to slit a child's throat and I shoot him, I'm doing it out of love for the child.

I am not a violent person. I've talked people out of fighting much more than I've fought. I've never struck someone out of hatred. I don't want to hurt anyone but make no mistake about it, I am going home at the end of the day. If that means putting a brick through someones head to stay alive I will do it. I'm the one who has to live with it and God will judge me based on what was in my heart. You have no place to judge people.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Drew]

You have to fight back (sometimes), you have to protect others.

I do not believe matters are this simple. When Jesus is captive before Pilate, how does He explain that His disciples are not fighting to save Him (Jesus) from a certain fate? Does He say something like "my disciples are not fighting to recue me because God needs to be sure that I go to the cross to bear the world's sin".

No He does not, even though this is how many rationalize the words of Jesus with their beliefs about self-defence - they argue that the Jesus example is a "special case"; after all, Jesus has to go to the cross.

How does Jesus explain things?

If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not <SUP class=footnote value='[l]'>[l]</SUP>of this realm.â€

Jesus is saying that "fighting", even to save Jesus from death, is simply not consistent with the principles of the Kingdom He has initiated.

So we need to pay heed - it certainly appears that the use of violence - even in service of a seemingly good cause - is off the table for citizens of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Drew]

Drew you can knock someones block off and still love them in the name of Jesus.

I do not see how this works. Can you explain? It would seem to me that a violent blow to the head is the antithesis of love.

 

[reba]

Some folks compare the Kingdom of God to man's government. They believe it is proper and just to support government health care for it is an over all 'good' ignoring abortion. Yet will repeat over and over for a person who can protect them self to turn the other cheek. Hypocrisy

Jesus has point blank said to let your answers be yea yea or nay nay and that rule, request of our Lord is ignored.

Not having fancy words has gotten me in trouble before it most likely will here again. So be it.