LDS (Mormon) Discussion

[Mike]

I'm sorry, I guess I'm not sure if there are length limitations. I'll go back an check out the rules, but I didn't want my thoughts to end where they did.

If my church made demands of the things we have be led to, and chosen to, do in order to be a member, quite frankly, I would have to find another church. Other criteria: no caffeine, no tobacco, no alcohol (I realize Christians disagree on this one) add to the demands on our living. Faith should always come down to "relationship" and a response from that.

It grieves me that so many "casual Christians" don't become more informed about LDS, JW and other groups. Members of this forum have done so, but many see the commercials and take it for granted, based on the "Church of Jesus Christ & Latter Day Saints" and just assume.

If I were going door-to-door sharing my faith and witnessing to people, and I had someone say they are a Christian & have a personal relationship with Jesus, my response would be something like, "Fantastic! Keep the faith!" and perhaps share a word of prayer. I told you about our neighbors who wouldn't stop attempting to convert us. I've also had a situation where Mormons arrived at my door. I expressed my faith and they still provided Mormon literature. Then I received 2 follow up visits. So this leads to my ultimate question. If you do consider yourself Christians, why do you insist on witness to Christians and converting them? Instead of asking us why we believe you are not Christians, let's turn the table and ask why you from all of your efforts behave as you are not.

Many of the differences have been discussed, so I suppose no need to point those out.

 

[kpd560]

I just read through this thread and I find it fascinating. The christians questioning the mormon should be able to appreciate how the atheist feels when questioning a christian. To you, the mormon beliefs seem unfounded and ridiculous. I even detected ridicule when the magic underwear was discussed. Shame on you to demand respect for your own religious beliefs and then ridicule the religious beliefs of others. Don't you see that to them your beliefs are just as worthy of ridicule?

As an atheist I see no meaningful difference between christianity, mormonism, islam, judaism, hinduism, scientology etc. etc. They all profess to hold the ultimate book written by a god and to the extent that anybody elses book disagrees they claim absolute authority. The books all require deliberate interpretation and this interpretation can vary greatly which doesn't bode well for claims of perfect divine authorship. Unless, of course, the authors goal was to divide men up into separate groups suspicious of each others particular interpretation.

Since we're all born atheists there is only generally one factor that determines which religion we grow up believing - our parents. You are all atheists with regard to every god invented and worshipped by man save one. I just take the consistent position and believe in none. I will however defend your right to believe anything you like.

 

[Mike]

I just read through this thread and I find it fascinating. The christians questioning the mormon should be able to appreciate how the atheist feels when questioning a christian. To you, the mormon beliefs seem unfounded and ridiculous. I even detected ridicule when the magic underwear was discussed. Shame on you to demand respect for your own religious beliefs and then ridicule the religious beliefs of others. Don't you see that to them your beliefs are just as worthy of ridicule?

As an atheist I see no meaningful difference between christianity, mormonism, islam, judaism, hinduism, scientology etc. etc. They all profess to hold the ultimate book written by a god and to the extent that anybody elses book disagrees they claim absolute authority. The books all require deliberate interpretation and this interpretation can vary greatly which doesn't bode well for claims of perfect divine authorship. Unless, of course, the authors goal was to divide men up into separate groups suspicious of each others particular interpretation.

Since we're all born atheists there is only generally one factor that determines which religion we grow up believing - our parents. You are all atheists with regard to every god invented and worshipped by man save one. I just take the consistent position and believe in none. I will however defend your right to believe anything you like.

You have a great point that I have state as Christian. Christianity is as unbelievable to atheists as the Mormon doctrine is to us. We have to acknowledge that.

 

[kpd560]

You have a great point that I have state as Christian. Christianity is as unbelievable to atheists as the Mormon doctrine is to us. We have to acknowledge that.

Thanks, understanding the opposing view is valuable in discourse even if there's no agreement.

 

[Mike]

You have a great point that I have state as Christian. Christianity is as unbelievable to atheists as the Mormon doctrine is to us. We have to acknowledge that.

Thanks, understanding the opposing view is valuable in discourse even if there's no agreement.

I meant what I said about mutual disbelief, but...

Christianity has much more going for it in terms of confidence quotient than Mormonism. Joseph Smith did not allow anyone else access to his hieroglyphics, while many people who authored Christianity had witness to the Truth. Joe forced everyone around him to accept his story based on his own testimony. He also had personal wealth as his motivation, IMO. And more charisma than President Clinton! Not much wealth in living in poverty until you are martyred by the Romans. Personally, if I knew something wasn't absolutely true, I would give it up before I was hung on a cross upside down. "OK, OK, I was just messin'!!!" Would you? I might go to my death in 2010 rather than deny my faith, but I wouldn't do so if it was 40 A.D. and I wasn't sure of what I personally witnessed.

 

[kpd560]

You have a great point that I have state as Christian. Christianity is as unbelievable to atheists as the Mormon doctrine is to us. We have to acknowledge that.

Thanks, understanding the opposing view is valuable in discourse even if there's no agreement.

I meant what I said about mutual disbelief, but...

Christianity has much more going for it in terms of confidence quotient than Mormonism.

What would a mormon say about christianity?

Joseph Smith did not allow anyone else access to his hieroglyphics, while many people who authored Christianity had witness to the Truth.

We know this how?

Joe forced everyone around him to accept his story based on his own testimony.

Didn't this happen in the Bible too? Having to take one persons word.

He also had personal wealth as his motivation, IMO.

We know proponents of Christianity had no personal motivation how?

Not much wealth in living in poverty until you are martyred by the Romans.

How do we know this really happened?

Personally, if I knew something wasn't absolutely true, I would give it up before I was hung on a cross upside down.

Again, we know this to be true because?

 

[Mike]

Good grief! Your response to everything is "We know this how?" Big Joe says so himself about his own testimony, that's how! If he had any witnesses, he would have used them.

As for all your "We know this how?'s" about the origin of Christianity, ask yourself the questions in reverse.

"We know this how" the disciples didn't have anything to gain. What did they have to gain? When I ask myself this question, I come up with nothing. Sometimes people look too deeply for strenuous evidence for something and it's over-thought. I'm just asking you to use reason. If you were my fiend and you knew I did or didn't do something, would you take it to its conclusion and be put to death over it? I would hope not...unless you were absolutely sure you witness it...and you were absolutely sure it meant eternal consequences. Now suppose you have a number of your friends who are faced with the same scenario. Everyone takes this lie to their death over me, mjjcb? I'm honored, but I'm not buying it.

 

[kpd560]

I'm just asking you to use reason.

Very well. If I wanted to convince people of the truth of my claims what better way than to say people willingly died for them? In other words, make up a story.

 

[Mike]

I'm just asking you to use reason.

Very well. If I wanted to convince people of the truth of my claims what better way than to say people willingly died for them? In other words, make up a story.

In other words.?.?.? Make a statement...

kpd, some people may have their agendas here to "convince" other people. All I'm doing is defending the Truth. You seem bent on doing the former, while I can say I'm doing the latter. Are you rejecting the testimony provided or that the said events ever occurred? I would offer evidence to contradict either of your disbeliefs. But you would just say "You know this how?"

Okay, then. You don't apply your position to the situation. You don't answer the hypothetical question of defending me, mjjcb. I don't know what to make of this. We've apparently come to a cross road that you refuse to acknowledge. Tell me how you would respond to such scrutiny pertaining to your personal knowledge of what I did or didn't do, take yourself to death in it. What ever you do, don't translate that to what these men would do "back in the day". They obviously did have an agenda. But "you know this how"?

 

[Mike]

And we've apparently strayed way away from the thread. Being new here, if you know of a way to pick this up in a more appropriate section, I would be happy to follow you. But I think I should put this back in the lap of Mormons.

Please, Mormons! If you say you are Christians, why are you continuously trying to convince me to convert to Mormonism?

 

[LostSoul]

I'm just asking you to use reason.

Very well. If I wanted to convince people of the truth of my claims what better way than to say people willingly died for them? In other words, make up a story.

Are you claiming Jesus did not die for the world? Or perhaps that He did not do so willingly? I am sorry....but I believe scripture says otherwise. So I am going to have to disagree if that is the case.

 

[kpd560]

I'm just asking you to use reason.

Very well. If I wanted to convince people of the truth of my claims what better way than to say people willingly died for them? In other words, make up a story.

Are you claiming Jesus did not die for the world? Or perhaps that He did not do so willingly? I am sorry....but I believe scripture says otherwise. So I am going to have to disagree if that is the case.

I should have been more clear. I will attempt it again.

"We know this how" the disciples didn't have anything to gain. What did they have to gain? When I ask myself this question, I come up with nothing. Sometimes people look too deeply for strenuous evidence for something and it's over-thought. I'm just asking you to use reason. If you were my fiend and you knew I did or didn't do something, would you take it to its conclusion and be put to death over it? I would hope not...unless you were absolutely sure you witness it...and you were absolutely sure it meant eternal consequences. Now suppose you have a number of your friends who are faced with the same scenario. Everyone takes this lie to their death over me, mjjcb? I'm honored, but I'm not buying it.

I was asked to use reason to explain the story of the disciples who died professing their faith in Jesus.
Using reason I would say that the story was concocted to convince people of the divinity of Jesus or some such.

Please understand, I am an atheist. As such I do not believe any of the religous books are the best ever written and are full of inerrant truth. I suspect that my view of the Bible is just like your view of the Koran or Book of Mormon.

 

[LostSoul]

My views, while very different from yours are not exactly as you convey them.

In terms of the disciples having nothing to gain...that is all in a matter of perspective. After all, how many people die on a daily basis in the effort to save others lives by going into burning buildings? While some may argue it is for their paycheck....or for their living....consider this...how much are they really being paid?

Football players and other forms of entertainment providers are paid more for doing almost nothing truly beneficial to another human being let alone society.

Could it be that perhaps some people just truly genuinely feel that a life is worth saving? Not to mention if you are not going to live your life in accordance to what you believe...why believe at all?

 

[Mike]

I was asked to use reason to explain the story of the disciples who died professing their faith in Jesus.
Using reason I would say that the story was concocted to convince people of the divinity of Jesus or some such.

Please understand, I am an atheist. As such I do not believe any of the religous books are the best ever written and are full of inerrant truth. I suspect that my view of the Bible is just like your view of the Koran or Book of Mormon.[/quote]

I guess you need to be even more clear for me. Sorry! Are you saying they were concocted by the witnesses or that none of it ever happened and they were made up from nothing by people who weren't there. I mean, do you believe John, Peter, Matthew and Mark wrote the books but slanted to convince divinity? I would just throw the ball back in your court and ask you to use reason... yes, again. Why would they allow themselves to die a brutal death for a story that was concocted? I tried to bring it closer to you and why you would allow yourself to die for a lie. We're not connecting.

 

[kpd560]

My views, while very different from yours are not exactly as you convey them.

My apologies. In my defense I did say that I suspect you feel... so I did leave room for disagreement.

In terms of the disciples having nothing to gain...that is all in a matter of perspective. After all, how many people die on a daily basis in the effort to save others lives by going into burning buildings? While some may argue it is for their paycheck....or for their living....consider this...how much are they really being paid?

Football players and other forms of entertainment providers are paid more for doing almost nothing truly beneficial to another human being let alone society.

Could it be that perhaps some people just truly genuinely feel that a life is worth saving? Not to mention if you are not going to live your life in accordance to what you believe...why believe at all?

You've totally lost me.

 

[Mike]

My views, while very different from yours are not exactly as you convey them.

In terms of the disciples having nothing to gain...that is all in a matter of perspective. After all, how many people die on a daily basis in the effort to save others lives by going into burning buildings? While some may argue it is for their paycheck....or for their living....consider this...how much are they really being paid?

Football players and other forms of entertainment providers are paid more for doing almost nothing truly beneficial to another human being let alone society.

Could it be that perhaps some people just truly genuinely feel that a life is worth saving? Not to mention if you are not going to live your life in accordance to what you believe...why believe at all?

OK, well apparently it's me, because I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The disciples weren't choosing to be tortured to death, but they accepted it. And they weren't doing it to safe anyone per se. You could say they were continuing to preach the Good News in order that others would be "Saved" which lead to their demise. I don't see a parallel with firefighters. Maybe if I get a better nights sleep, these will all make sense to me tomorrow.

 

[Mike]

Oh, so it wasn't just me!

I'm bumping my request for a Mormon Response from a few posts above in case one comes across the thread.

 

[LostSoul]

My point is in the gain. Sorry neither of you could get that. The disciples died because they believed strongly enough in something. Faith does not really require explanation....nor proof, that is why it is what it is. I know you can or may not agree with me and that is alright you are entitled to your own thoughts.

What I was saying was simply that if a fireman can go into a burning building for little to no reason than to save another person's life...what is so wrong about a person standing up for what he believes in, even if it should cost him his life? It is the same principle. These men or women believe what they do can save another's life, whereas a disciple believes so much in Jesus that they know that their eternal awards in Heaven are far greater than anything they could experience here on earth. What is so wrong about that? Why can't that be possibly true?

Surely you put your faith in something or someone? Perhaps believe in something? For example, like the ability of being able to earn a degree or go into a certain profession?

 

[Mike]

What I was saying was simply that if a fireman can go into a burning building for little to no reason than to save another person's life...what is so wrong about a person standing up for what he believes in, even if it should cost him his life? It is the same principle. These men or women believe what they do can save another's life, whereas a disciple believes so much in Jesus that they know that their eternal awards in Heaven are far greater than anything they could experience here on earth. What is so wrong about that? Why can't that be possibly true?

Surely you put your faith in something or someone? Perhaps believe in something? For example, like the ability of being able to earn a degree or go into a certain profession?

Sorry. I'm trying. I really am, but still not understanding. Did someone say that the disciples were wrong to go to their deaths for staying true to what they knew was the truth, and I missed it? I believe I'm reading that you are a Christian? Is that correct? You're no doubt saying to yourself, "How dense is this guy?" I used their lives and deaths to point out that no one in their right mind would die over something they did or didn't witness first hand if it did or didn't happen. We simply are not connecting. I'm having a hard time drawing a line from what the martyrs went thru to "choosing a profession" or "earning a degree". Don't get mad at me. Have patience. I'm honestly trying to make order of your statements and questions.

 

[LostSoul]

Mjjcb,

I am sorry. Perhaps I am not speaking simply enough. Sometimes when I am trying to say things, I ramble. It is a rather bad habit I am working on fixing. I believe in God, yes. I believe Jesus died for me, yes. When it comes to labels though....I am not so good. In truth, you can probably call me a Christian because I have their beliefs....I just am not so big on the label of a Christian. I know...that will likely make no sense to you. That in a way, likely will not make me the best witness.

You have a hard time like perhaps one or two others here in accepting the idea that the disciples truly died willingly right? You have a hard time thinking the idea of any person putting down their lives for what they believe in to be anything short of fiction correct?

What I am trying to say is....that a fireman, like a disciple.....risks their lives because of what they believe in. This is nothing short of what the disciples were doing in the days after Jesus died. In those days Christianity was very much persecuted. It still is today in some countries. So much so, people today still die because of their beliefs on a daily basis. I was more or less using the firemen as a metaphor. More or less a means to paint a picture in more a modern day view to help you understand how it could be possible for disciples to have existed, believed, and died because of what they believed.

Most firemen when they go into a burning building, their first thought is not on their paycheck...but on the lives that he or she could possible save. They train for this. They prepare for this. More often than not, they go into this profession because they believe in saving lives. In short, they do this, because they believe it is the right thing to do. Just as the disciples believed that standing up for their faith....at whatever cost, that they were doing the right thing.

I know the bible is seen as a book of fairy tales to a number of people. So I will understand if you continue to have that form of view. However, keep in mind...if you will, that so many people out there believe that they could possibly hold or come into possession of great wealth without ever truly knowing or seeing it. Faith works the same way....though you may not be able to see God, you can sure feel Him....and know that He is there.