LDS (Mormon) Discussion

[Mike]

Mjjcb,

I am sorry. Perhaps I am not speaking simply enough. Sometimes when I am trying to say things, I ramble. It is a rather bad habit I am working on fixing. I believe in God, yes. I believe Jesus died for me, yes. When it comes to labels though....I am not so good. In truth, you can probably call me a Christian because I have their beliefs....I just am not so big on the label of a Christian. I know...that will likely make no sense to you. That in a way, likely will not make me the best witness.

Thanks for dusting off your 3 grade books to meet me at my level. I understand now. (I hope) I've read numerous sources that claim to have the specific translations of the word, I've seen "Little Christ" or "followers of Christ". Given that, I'll be elated to be little around Him. He can hold me up! And I'm thrilled to follow him were ever He leads me.

You have a hard time like perhaps one or two others here in accepting the idea that the disciples truly died willingly right? You have a hard time thinking the idea of any person putting down their lives for what they believe in to be anything short of fiction correct?

I'll go down the road a ways with you. Yes, they died willingly. After everything they had witnessed, touched the face of God, knew that eternity with Him would not come to fruition if they don't stay true. But they were people and were very anxious when they were nearing death, mostly from the torture - not from the death

What I am trying to say is....that a fireman, like a disciple.....risks their lives because of what they believe in. This is nothing short of what the disciples were doing in the days after Jesus died. In those days Christianity was very much persecuted. It still is today in some countries. So much so, people today still die because of their beliefs on a daily basis. I was more or less using the firemen as a metaphor. More or less a means to paint a picture in more a modern day view to help you understand how it could be possible for disciples to have existed, believed, and died because of what they believed.

I get what you’re stating here, and I agree with just some things I’m questioning. I’m paraphrazing and knocking out some of your words I don’t need to make my point. Fireman and atheist are driven by their beliefs. Hmmm IMO, the twelve were faced with persecution while exhaustingly traveling to cities to preach the news. They were each tasked by none other than the Son of God to go thru fire with their uncompromising faith. Firemen make me look like small peas. You might disagree when I say the disciples make the firemen small peas. The meanings of their lives have been completely turned around. Our Firefighters and our Disciples do share amazing courage, though. I’ll give you that.

I know the bible is seen as a book of fairy tales to a number of people. So I will understand if you continue to have that form of view.

No argument hear. I believe in God. I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I believe what the Bible tells me. Yes I’m the local Jesus Freak around her! Gotta love that!

 

[seekandlisten]

Please, Mormons! If you say you are Christians, why are you continuously trying to convince me to convert to Mormonism?

I've had a few conversations with Mormons and they have always been civil when talking about their faith and I have never felt any pressure by them to convert. Obviously your case is different though. I would like to ask you though, seeing as you are putting forth the question to Mormons, why do you think that Mormons should convert to your branch of Christianity?

cheers

 

[watchman F]

Please, Mormons! If you say you are Christians, why are you continuously trying to convince me to convert to Mormonism?

I've had a few conversations with Mormons and they have always been civil when talking about their faith and I have never felt any pressure by them to convert. Obviously your case is different though. I would like to ask you though, seeing as you are putting forth the question to Mormons, why do you think that Mormons should convert to your branch of Christianity?

cheers

Because Mormons are not Christians. They need to receive Christ as their Savior (the true Christ of the bible) just like everyone else needs to.

 

[Mike]

Please, Mormons! If you say you are Christians, why are you continuously trying to convince me to convert to Mormonism?

I've had a few conversations with Mormons and they have always been civil when talking about their faith and I have never felt any pressure by them to convert. Obviously your case is different though. I would like to ask you though, seeing as you are putting forth the question to Mormons, why do you think that Mormons should convert to your branch of Christianity?

cheers

Maybe our other exchange spurred you to come back and respond here. I'm glad you did. I'll get with the question you asked about the "stars" in Isaiah, but I'll do that there not here.

I posed the question to Mormons who claim they are Christians. I'm certain they are not, so I would always encourage them to open themselves up to the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. I don't believe I've ever implied that they were not civil. To the contrary, they have been very polite. While my neighbor was deceptive with his intentions, he was polite as were the people who have come to my door. They were, however persistent. But I'm not interested in having them "convert to my branch of Christianity", but to anywhere in biblical Christianity. There are salvation issues that different denominations and nondenominational Christians agree upon. Their variations in non-salvation issues don't pose a problem to me. I'm not sure if that is what you meant by "my branch". Your perspective is sort of an enigma to me. Care to say which church you belong to? JW? I would say the same about them being outside of Christianity, but I haven't found them to be aggressive in conversion.

 

[seekandlisten]

Maybe our other exchange spurred you to come back and respond here. I'm glad you did. I'll get with the question you asked about the "stars" in Isaiah, but I'll do that there not here.

I posed the question to Mormons who claim they are Christians. I'm certain they are not, so I would always encourage them to open themselves up to the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. I don't believe I've ever implied that they were not civil. To the contrary, they have been very polite. While my neighbor was deceptive with his intentions, he was polite as were the people who have come to my door. They were, however persistent. But I'm not interested in having them "convert to my branch of Christianity", but to anywhere in biblical Christianity.

What makes you 'certain' that Mormons are not 'Christians'? You say you don't want to convert them to your approved version of Christianity by referring to 'biblical Christianity' yet the Mormons read the bible so I don't quite get your point?

There are salvation issues that different denominations and nondenominational Christians agree upon. Their variations in non-salvation issues don't pose a problem to me.

I think we might have some disagreements on 'salvation' but I won't comment on that until I understand where you and the Mormons differ in opinion on this.

I'm not sure if that is what you meant by "my branch". Your perspective is sort of an enigma to me. Care to say which church you belong to? JW? I would say the same about them being outside of Christianity, but I haven't found them to be aggressive in conversion.

I don't belong to a church due to a variety of reasons, which is a long discussion so I'll leave it at that for now. To give you a little perspective on my approach to religion I would be more of an agnostic with leanings toward the eastern religions. I was brought up in Christianity (Mennonite/Baptist) with church every Sunday, youth group every Wednesday, school from grade 1-12 in the basement of the church, and went to all sorts of youth events (from 16 to my leaving the church I was more inclined to Pentecostal beliefs) so you could say I understand the religion of Christianity fairly well. If you have question I'll try to answer but I will warn you my beliefs are rather complicated.

cheers

 

[Mike]

What makes you 'certain' that Mormons are not 'Christians'? You say you don't want to convert them to your approved version of Christianity by referring to 'biblical Christianity' yet the Mormons read the bible so I don't quite get your point?

I think we might have some disagreements on 'salvation' but I won't comment on that until I understand where you and the Mormons differ in opinion on this.

cheers

I know I'm not dealing with a person who's uninformed on Mormon doctrine and theology, so I'm not sure what your motives are for asking- but I'll bite. There are many ways they separate themselves, and I'm not into long winded responses, so I'll just say Christianity does not allow for another book concocted by Joseph Smith to be placed on the level of the Bible, and we believe God is and has always has been. This does not allow for their belief that God grew up on another planet and was given Earth to lord over as his reward or that we too can aspire to be gods of our own planets.

I realize you have view far from that of biblical Christianity. If you would say that Christianity allows for such heresy, I will not convince you otherwise. They obviously do separate themselves or they wouldn't respond to a Christian by trying to convert them as well.

 

[seekandlisten]

What makes you 'certain' that Mormons are not 'Christians'? You say you don't want to convert them to your approved version of Christianity by referring to 'biblical Christianity' yet the Mormons read the bible so I don't quite get your point?

I think we might have some disagreements on 'salvation' but I won't comment on that until I understand where you and the Mormons differ in opinion on this.

cheers

I know I'm not dealing with a person who's uninformed on Mormon doctrine and theology, so I'm not sure what your motives are for asking- but I'll bite. There are many ways they separate themselves, and I'm not into long winded responses, so I'll just say Christianity does not allow for another book concocted by Joseph Smith to be placed on the level of the Bible, and we believe God is and has always has been. This does not allow for their belief that God grew up on another planet and was given Earth to lord over as his reward or that we too can aspire to be gods of our own planets.

I realize you have view far from that of biblical Christianity. If you would say that Christianity allows for such heresy, I will not convince you otherwise. They obviously do separate themselves or they wouldn't respond to a Christian by trying to convert them as well.

First off, I'm not trying to 'bait you in' on something I would just rather ask opinions rather than assume. I'm not totally up to par on Mormon doctrine and theology other than what I have looked at is very similar to Christianity. There is the case of Jesus conception and such that I think there are some major differences but to me these are issues that really can't be confirmed as 'truth' one way or the other and are irrelevant to one's 'salvation'. Your pointing to 'God growing up on another planet and was given Earth to lord over' is something I've never heard of. Are you referring to God above all or Jesus as God. I don't believe Jesus is God himself in the way Christianity describes it so I'd ask that you'd make the distinction to help my understanding if you do believe Jesus is God.

I realize the Mormons separate themselves just like every other denomination but to me these separations are on trivial aspects of which are based on myth and there is no possible way of knowing so I tend to keep my foundational beliefs to things that directly apply to our physical world as that is what we can know in terms of how our lives affect it. The rest is just arguments over words really.

cheers

 

[Mike]

Your pointing to 'God growing up on another planet and was given Earth to lord over' is something I've never heard of. Are you referring to God above all or Jesus as God. I don't believe Jesus is God himself in the way Christianity describes it so I'd ask that you'd make the distinction to help my understanding if you do believe Jesus is God.

I realize the Mormons separate themselves just like every other denomination but to me these separations are on trivial aspects of which are based on myth and there is no possible way of knowing so I tend to keep my foundational beliefs to things that directly apply to our physical world as that is what we can know in terms of how our lives affect it. The rest is just arguments over words really.

cheers

Sorry if I assumed too much. To your point about the Mormon god, they believe God Himself was a person on another planet (Kolob) and that as a result of his holy life, he (I don't even like capitalizing their pronoun) was given earth to lord over. Further, if we live holy lives here on earth, we too can ascend to become gods of our own planet. This would appear to be mutually exclusive with the Christian belief that we will spend eternity in His presence glorifying Him. So in effect, they would have it that they can be equal to God. Strictly not of Christian doctrine.

I believe Jesus is and has always been One with the Trinity, and I know you reject the Trinity. To get on a tangent discussing this belief is not the subject of this Mormon thread. You really seem to be hung up on denominations, leading me to believe this was a major source of tension in your church growing up. Quite frankly, I have never met a Christian who takes it upon himself to war against other denominations. I'm not taking this opportunity to make a defense of the Christian belief. You would say I'm wrong, and I would say I'm right. The point of all of this particular thread is to point out simply that there is Christianity and our set of beliefs, and then there is Mormonism. The two are irreconcilable.

 

[seekandlisten]

Sorry if I assumed too much. To your point about the Mormon god, they believe God Himself was a person on another planet (Kolob) and that as a result of his holy life, he (I don't even like capitalizing their pronoun) was given earth to lord over. Further, if we live holy lives here on earth, we too can ascend to become gods of our own planet. This would appear to be mutually exclusive with the Christian belief that we will spend eternity in His presence glorifying Him. So in effect, they would have it that they can be equal to God. Strictly not of Christian doctrine.

Well, I did a little research and I think you may be misunderstanding the belief a little bit. The source of the belief comes from the Book of Abraham of which here is two references:

In a vision of Abraham, Abraham - "saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest."

"Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh."

It doesn't seem to be referring to 'God on another planet' but rather Kolob being the planet closest to the throne of God.

According to wikipedia:

In modern Mormonism, Kolob is a rare topic of discussion within religious contexts. However, it is periodically a topic of discussion with Mormon apologetics.

According to the traditional, literal Mormon interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Kolob is an actual star or planet in this universe that is, or is near, the physical throne of God. According to Joseph Smith, Jr., this star was discovered by Methuselah and Abraham[8] by looking through the Urim and Thummim.[9] This literal interpretation has significant formative impact on Mormon belief and criticism, leading to conceptions such as that the righteous will be made as gods, that God dwells within this universe, and that the Biblical creation is a creation of the local earth, solar system, or galaxy, rather than the entire known physical reality.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

So while it is different from Christian doctrine, it's really just Joseph Smith's opinion.

I believe Jesus is and has always been One with the Trinity, and I know you reject the Trinity. To get on a tangent discussing this belief is not the subject of this Mormon thread.

Agreed.

You really seem to be hung up on denominations, leading me to believe this was a major source of tension in your church growing up. Quite frankly, I have never met a Christian who takes it upon himself to war against other denominations.

It's not that I'm hung up on denominations, it's that I see the separation and division in a 'church' that is claimed to be established by Jesus yet his church was said to 'never fall or be divided' so this becomes an issue. I also think that the reasons for such separations and divisions are over ridiculous beliefs that due to self righteousness can't be resolved because someone figures they are more 'enlightened' or some such nonsense. The corruption of organized religion is also quite prevalent. The 'kingdom is not of this world' is the teaching so why isn't it followed? Not trying to stray this conversation off topic so if you wish to further discuss this aspect start a new topic and I'd be more than happy to join in.

I'm not taking this opportunity to make a defense of the Christian belief. You would say I'm wrong, and I would say I'm right. The point of all of this particular thread is to point out simply that there is Christianity and our set of beliefs, and then there is Mormonism. The two are irreconcilable.

I don't think they are.

cheers

 

[Mike]

The point of all of this particular thread is to point out simply that there is Christianity and our set of beliefs, and then there is Mormonism. The two are irreconcilable.

I don't think they are.

cheers

A little more to think about. I guess you have a larger umbrella that defines what Christianity is. I don’t believe this is consistent with basic Christianity.

Quoting Joseph Smith (who founded the church),in his book, “History of the Churchâ€:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens… I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will rebuke that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see… It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another…â€

“…He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth…â€

Milton Hunter, member of the 1st Council of the Seventy, echoed Smith’s claims; in his book Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 114 it states:

“…if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhead?....God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed itâ€.

“As He gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood."

From “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith†p.354:
The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

It's not that I'm hung up on denominations, it's that I see the separation and division in a 'church' that is claimed to be established by Jesus yet his church was said to 'never fall or be divided' so this becomes an issue. I also think that the reasons for such separations and divisions are over ridiculous beliefs that due to self righteousness can't be resolved because someone figures they are more 'enlightened' or some such nonsense. The corruption of organized religion is also quite prevalent.

I believe the things that separate denominations and nondenominational church’s are easily pointed to from the outside and exploited. Obviously you have humans making decisions that inconsistent with God’s purpose, but we are human. The vast majority of people within them consider their counterparts in different denominations as equal brothers and sisters in Christ. Mormons are not, and they would agree.

 

[seekandlisten]

I believe the things that separate denominations and nondenominational church’s are easily pointed to from the outside and exploited.

Oh I can very much agree here but that also applies to all religions and denominations. A good example of this is quote mining. Those outside of Islam exploit it as false, those outside of Catholic beliefs exploit it as false, those outside of Protestant beliefs promote it as false, those outside Buddhist beliefs promote it as false, etc, etc.

I'm not going to argue that the Mormons are right because I don't support that. I also don't support that Christianity is right so do I write off both of them? No, if I have questions regarding Mormons I'll go to the source and ask someone who is a Mormon what they believe. I won't go to a Protestant source explaining why Mormons are not correct because that would be a biased source exploiting beliefs they don't understand or agree with. In the same sense I wouldn't go to a Mormon source to learn about Protestants as obviously that would also be biased towards their own belief. Now if from the outside I go to both sources and draw my conclusions from that well I would have a much more balanced view on each belief system.

Obviously you have humans making decisions that inconsistent with God’s purpose, but we are human. The vast majority of people within them consider their counterparts in different denominations as equal brothers and sisters in Christ. Mormons are not, and they would agree.

The problem comes down to hijacked terms. To me a Christian is anyone who follows Christ. Well that includes Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, JW's, Mormons, and anyone else I may have missed. I think there are like 33,000 divisions under the title of Christianity. I keep running into Protestants who think that somehow their beliefs are not a religion and they are simply a Christian which then in turn comes down to those that don't believe like them are not Christians. While a Mormon belief wouldn't be considered a Protestant belief and vise versa, they would still be under the religion of Christianity. Do you consider Roman Catholics your brother's and sister's as well? It's all under the same heading.

cheers

 

[Mike]

No, if I have questions regarding Mormons I'll go to the source and ask someone who is a Mormon what they believe.

Which is why I posed the question to Mormons. I've enjoyed our conversation, but I'd like to hear from a Mormon.

Do you consider Roman Catholics your brother's and sister's as well? It's all under the same heading.

Yes I do! I'm sad when I see individuals lay claim that either Catholicism or Protestantism isn't. Catholics and Protestants share the same core beliefs. Some of the most Godly people I know are Catholic.

 

[seekandlisten]

Do you consider Roman Catholics your brother's and sister's as well? It's all under the same heading.

Yes I do! I'm sad when I see individuals lay claim that either Catholicism or Protestantism isn't. Catholics and Protestants share the same core beliefs. Some of the most Godly people I know are Catholic.

Well that's a breath of fresh air. I'll leave this thread and let any Mormons around continue this discussion.

I'll point out that like you say some of the most Godly people you know are Catholic a lot of the most humble people I've met are Buddhist's and Taoist's so perhaps there is something to be learned from all walks of life.

cheers

 

[Mike]

I'll point out that like you say some of the most Godly people you know are Catholic a lot of the most humble people I've met are Buddhist's and Taoist's so perhaps there is something to be learned from all walks of life.

In terms of everyday life, I fully agree. But in terms of salvation, I wouldn't. I try to be bold with my faith, but not rude or argumentative. It's hard for me to convey the spirit with which I exchange ideas in print and not sound like I'm "angry guy".

 

[Brian]

The Greatest Test.

When I am approached by any christian missionary such as the mormans, or jehovah witnesses or baptists or pentecostals or catholics or methodists or etc,etc...
I introduce myself as "the Lord's Servant" and I offer to come teach and preach at there so called House of Prayer.
They always say "no" then I say "so I'm not good enough for your congregation? Scripture says those of God hear us!"

The last thing the gods want is their members breaking loose from the chains of deception...the gods fear YHWH. They can NEVER stand against the Power of ALMIGHTY GOD!!!

"Even the devils believe and tremble."

That's why I don't even get to say "the Lord Rebuke thee" before these people either...1)apologize and leave 2) or just leave

I have found that the ones religion calls lost, are way less demonic in influence.

Much Love,