Rick W said:
I also read that Smith was helped/funded by masons to construct the first major LDS temples..
Mason secret underpants + architecture; definitely a masonic influence going on here.. :yes
LDS (Mormon) Discussion
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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I also read that Smith was helped/funded by masons to construct the first major LDS temples..
Mason secret underpants + architecture; definitely a masonic influence going on here.. :yes
Here is a vid on some of what mormons believe. Yes it is cheesy but yes they believe these things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE
Kaltrop said:
Many of the Mormons I've talked to about their faith read the bible and I have yet to hear a mormon say they believe this. Will a mormon vouch for this or is it just more propaganda?
In the same sense I could say this is what Christians believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJTqTEC4TeE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRvPwGK3p4
I didn't watch the whole video but sadly, what I did watch is quite true. It is quite significant that no Mormon you have talked to has mentioned this stuff since they are very central beliefs. I think they think it sounds hokey but they have to believe it. There is actually quite a bit they don't say about their unusual teachings unless asked and even then it can be hard to get a straight answer.seekandlisten said:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng...n-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father
seekandlisten said:
What point are you saying they don't believe? Call the LDS mission center and ask (1-800-645-4949) they will be happy to tell you what they believe. I certainly don't want to be posting anything that is untrue. The good news stands up by itself without any help from me, so if I am in error please let me be corrected. I really don't think you are going to find a mormon who knows their doctrine who is going to be willing to deny that that's what their church teaches.
The link you included doesn't really state a position. I assume what you are talking about is the fact that this man was offending people? Jesus said the world hated Him because He testified that their works were evil. So in that this man looks like he was preaching a message of repentance from sin - yes we absolutely believe that. Whether he was there because he felt led to do it or whether he was there out of pride? Who can say. I did see some people screaming but it wasn't him.
Kaltrop said:
Honestly this was about the 4th or 5th thread I went through that was either agains mormons or muslims and I just made the comment out of frustration. What was the point in posting that video? It definitely didn't build up anyone who is a mormon? This is an open forum that anyone can come across and see what is posted. What if a mormon who is discontent with what their church is teaching goes looking for the truth, decides to check out christianity and comes across this site only to see christians cutting down and mocking their religion?
I'll share a story from personal experience. When I was about 17 I brought a friend of mine who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness to a youth function to let her check out my faith. We were chatting it up with some others we met their and wouldn't you know, 2 people there started on a conversation about JW's and called them a cult amongst other things. How do you think that witness went for my friend as a first impression of what christianity is? Something to think about.
Christianity started as a cult once too. If some 'crazy' guy from the countryside showed up in your church Sunday morning dressed like a 'bum' do you think he would be allowed to step up behind the pulpit? If John the Baptist showed up today spreading his message I'm sure most would have thought he was a cult leader.
Just some thoughts to think about.
Free said:
I am certain that there are Mormons who Jesus will grant salvation to as well. Just because someone was raised as a mormon or attends a mormon church doesn't mean they believe everything that is taught from their doctrines. The same could be said about some beliefs in christianity. What is the definition of christianity's beliefs? If you're a protestant do you believe what the catholic's teach? If you are a baptist do you believe what the pentacostal's teach? Just because christianity split numerous different ways doesn't make any belief under the whole any less significant when your looking at the religion of christianity from the outside.
Although there are a wide variety of beliefs among Christan denominations, there is also much that they agree on. Mormons on the other hand have very few beliefs in common with Christianity. They use the same language but they change the meanings of the words. They want to be accepted as Christians, as another Christian denomination--and this despite what Joseph Smith was supposedly told by God--but they deny nearly everything that defines what it means to be a Christian.seekandlisten said:
That video is very true to Mormon theology. How many Mormons do you know? I live in Salt Lake, so unless you live here too I doubt you've had more encounters w/ Mormons than I have.seekandlisten said:
Well, I thought your point was questioning the validity of these beliefs? I can attest that they are legitimate LDS beliefs. Though you are right to a degree that many Mormons do not know the depths of their theology. Sadly, many Christians know more about Mormonism than even devout Mormons. :bigfrownseekandlisten said:
Okay, I have a stupid question that I'm just curious about, my LDS friend couldn't answer it (he's only 13 so don't look down on him for his lack of knowledge lol):
1) Why do you give the titles of Deacon (12-13-year-olds), Priest (14-15-year-olds) and Teacher (16-17-years-old)? What is the purpose? And why is someone an Elder while they are an active missionary? Can you explain the whole LDS 'rank' system to me?
Sorry if I got the ages/titles wrong.
1) Why do you give the titles of Deacon (12-13-year-olds), Priest (14-15-year-olds) and Teacher (16-17-years-old)? What is the purpose? And why is someone an Elder while they are an active missionary? Can you explain the whole LDS 'rank' system to me?
Sorry if I got the ages/titles wrong.
Free said:
What I watched is not quite true at all. Would it be accurate for me to say that because of the Sacrament, the Christian religions has a very weird sado-mashocist for a God who has taught his followers that they have to literally eat his body to gain salvation? If you think that is an accurate statement about Christianity, then yes that video (from that land mark documentary "The God Makers") is an accurate depiction of Mormonism. But not the Mormonism I know and believe.
Joseph Smith that the central doctrine of Mormonism is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, was crucified, died and was buried and rose on the third day and stands at the right hand of God the Father. All other doctrines are appendages to that. And that is the central doctrine of the LDS Church from someone who knows.
You might believe differently but that is your belief about the LDS Church not mine. And I live and practice my rellgion.
Marvin
So, you're denying the doctrine of progression and that God was once a man, and that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer? You're denying that there's a heavenly Mother, with whom Heavenly Father produces billions of spirit babies?Russianwolfe said:
toddm said:
I am questioning the way the doctrine was presented. I refer you back to my question about portraying Christ as a sado-mashocistic God. You haven't addressed that part.
Not only is speculation taught as doctrine, but the doctrine that is taught is only presented in part, and they leave out the foundation that should be taught first. Can you teach a 1st grader Calculus without teaching the basics of addition, subtraction, multiplication or division? Or should you start with arithmetic and then progress to mathematics and then maybe teach Calculus? What kind of impression will the 1st grader have of mathematics if you try starting with Calculus? This is the same kind of false impression someone might have if they view this video and think that this is all there is to Mormonism. Start with the core doctrines, Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost, before getting into the other parts that aren't as important. To do otherwise is not an honest attempt to teach about Mormonism but simply sensationalism which is not truthful.
Marvin
Russianwolf
For example, in ancient descriptions of Judao-christian doctrine (Judaic pseudoepigraphs, apocalyptics, Jewish Haggadah, Zohar, etc), the spirit of man existed long before it was placed in the body. For example, the Haggadah relates the non-arbitrary process of God (the Father) taking a specific pre-existing spirit and placing it into mortality under specific conditions.
When christianity abandoned the early doctrines, and adopted arbitrary ex-nihilo creation theories (i.e. an arbitrary creation from "nothing"), they created theories which philosophers, agnostics and theist themselves recognize as unfair. For example : the theory where God creates a spirit from nothing and places INTO that spirit, characteristics which he later punishes the man for having, is inherently unfair. They point out that many billions were placed upon the earth during a time period or under conditions where they could not have heard about Jesus, or died before receiving knowledge and understanding of Jesus (i.e. infants who die, the retarded, etc). Many later Christianities then, were forced to conclude such individuals and innocents were sent to a tortuous hell since such individuals died without having accepted Jesus.
Christianities who kept to the early doctrine of pre-existence did not have to deal with such complaints of unfairness the later doctrines created. If the LDS (and others) have kept to the early doctrine, then they also avoid the inherent unfairness of arbitrary creation, arbitrary conditions, and arbitrary and unfair punishment.
Though most modern Christianities have discarded the early doctrine of pre-existence of spirits which avoided such doctrinal deficiencies, If I am correct, the LDS also believe in the ancient Judao-Christian version of pre-existence of spirits.
In enoch’s vision of pre-creation heaven, he relates ;
If the LDS are trying to restore this early doctrine, then good for them.
Russianwolf: How does the LDS doctrine compare to the ancient Judao-Christian belief of the existence of spirits of men in “heaven†before they are “sent†to earth?
Clearly
sefufuhj
It does seem rather obvious that Todd is playing off of a strange and intentionally sensational presentation of early Christian Doctrine. In contrast to that approach, I have a great deal of interest in early Judao-Christian teachings and am very interested in parallels between the LDS and the early Judao-Christian literature.
For example, in ancient descriptions of Judao-christian doctrine (Judaic pseudoepigraphs, apocalyptics, Jewish Haggadah, Zohar, etc), the spirit of man existed long before it was placed in the body. For example, the Haggadah relates the non-arbitrary process of God (the Father) taking a specific pre-existing spirit and placing it into mortality under specific conditions.
When christianity abandoned the early doctrines, and adopted arbitrary ex-nihilo creation theories (i.e. an arbitrary creation from "nothing"), they created theories which philosophers, agnostics and theist themselves recognize as unfair. For example : the theory where God creates a spirit from nothing and places INTO that spirit, characteristics which he later punishes the man for having, is inherently unfair. They point out that many billions were placed upon the earth during a time period or under conditions where they could not have heard about Jesus, or died before receiving knowledge and understanding of Jesus (i.e. infants who die, the retarded, etc). Many later Christianities then, were forced to conclude such individuals and innocents were sent to a tortuous hell since such individuals died without having accepted Jesus.
Christianities who kept to the early doctrine of pre-existence did not have to deal with such complaints of unfairness the later doctrines created. If the LDS (and others) have kept to the early doctrine, then they also avoid the inherent unfairness of arbitrary creation, arbitrary conditions, and arbitrary and unfair punishment.
Though most modern Christianities have discarded the early doctrine of pre-existence of spirits which avoided such doctrinal deficiencies, If I am correct, the LDS also believe in the ancient Judao-Christian version of pre-existence of spirits.
In enoch’s vision of pre-creation heaven, he relates ;
These spirits are not just angels, but they are also the spirits (souls) of men awaiting the time when they will be born upon earth and experience mortality. Enoch is told :
If the LDS are trying to restore this early doctrine, then good for them.
Russianwolf: How does the LDS doctrine compare to the ancient Judao-Christian belief of the existence of spirits of men in “heaven†before they are “sent†to earth?
Clearly
sefufuhj
I'm new to these boards, and so it looks like I'm responding to this thread after a period of inactivity. I've been going back and forth with a Mormon on another board, but he hasn't responded to my main point - which I'll end with.
To the OP and other Mormons who have added to this thread I truly appreciate your input and the attitude with which you provide it. My family found itself living next door to a Mormon family, and the attempts to get us to their church never let up even though they knew we were a Christian family. It started under the guise that the Dad was interested in our faith, but it quickly became apparent he had no intention of learning about ours but wanted us to learn about theirs.
Please understand, if we were talking face to face, you would know that I'm sincere. This might not come across in print.
First, my impression of LDS is that they are doing everything they can to distance themselves from the word "Mormon". I have my opinions why that is, but I'd be interested in your explanation. IMO, they understand the baggage that comes with the history of the church and want to shed it. IMO, they cloak themselves in different ways depending on their audience. While I admire the fierceness of their witnessing approach, I don't appreciate the motives. This lends to the "works" roll in salvation. Having a "required" mission trip takes something that should be a "response" to the work of the Christ in us and creates a demand of the church. My family is regularly in bible study, and we've taken trips to Brazil on 4 occasions.
To the OP and other Mormons who have added to this thread I truly appreciate your input and the attitude with which you provide it. My family found itself living next door to a Mormon family, and the attempts to get us to their church never let up even though they knew we were a Christian family. It started under the guise that the Dad was interested in our faith, but it quickly became apparent he had no intention of learning about ours but wanted us to learn about theirs.
Please understand, if we were talking face to face, you would know that I'm sincere. This might not come across in print.
First, my impression of LDS is that they are doing everything they can to distance themselves from the word "Mormon". I have my opinions why that is, but I'd be interested in your explanation. IMO, they understand the baggage that comes with the history of the church and want to shed it. IMO, they cloak themselves in different ways depending on their audience. While I admire the fierceness of their witnessing approach, I don't appreciate the motives. This lends to the "works" roll in salvation. Having a "required" mission trip takes something that should be a "response" to the work of the Christ in us and creates a demand of the church. My family is regularly in bible study, and we've taken trips to Brazil on 4 occasions.