Learn something.......................

[(THE)]

Could you fix your quotes please? ...and im is I'm, wont is won't and there is they're. :D

Also, just to clear up one thing, Drew said, "Jesus answer's yes to the question: Are you the Christ? Christ means "king";"

Christ comes from christos, christos means "anointed". Kings are indeed anointed, so christos refers to a king, but doesn't necessarily mean king. The title Christ is akin to the title Messiah. People are anointed with oil, but it doesn't make them a "king".

FIrst I would say,,,,you have not come close to providing the evidence I have on the issue,,,so get your bible out and prove your case.....

second I would have to say you dont understand Ezekiel 36-37 and im more then willing to review....

third this is not a race issue at all,,,,if you research simple history you will see Israel traveling over the caucus mountains and taking the nam caucasians.......

Being the author of the thread ,,,I am not white,,,,but Israel is....so the race card wont work with me,,,Adam was a color,,,David was a color ,,Christ was a color,,,are you angry that there color was white/ruddy

reply as you will

and im is I'm, wont is won't and there is they're.

dont do alot of texn uh?????????

 

[tim-from-pa]

Now what will the counter to this be? No doubt it will be "well Paul is not saying that Jesus that "lord" of all the world, just of the inner lives of Christians - Jesus only becomes Lord of all the world at his second coming".

I find that reasonable, although "inner" is rather gnostic. Rather, He is Lord to His chosen, will be over all at the appointed time, or I should rather say, he will be Lord when people are no longer blinded but right now they are given freedom to follow their own devices. Jesus is Lord, but he's not on the Davidic Throne yet. What's hard to understand about that? The church are the called out ones, those few (and comparatively few) percentage of the population that will rule and reign with Christ at His Second Coming. The rest of the world will be under dominion later on. Right now Satan is the god of this world, so if he is god yet, then God's dominion has not started. It is important to understand that Christians are aliens in this world, not of this world and a distinct minority under persecution. Now, does that sound like the kingdom is here yet?

If zodiac signs are true, mine says I am idealistic and have rose-colored glasses. But even with my glasses I can see that there is war, famine, strife and everything bad--- that's obvious even looking at everything rosy. If there was no hope of a future Kingdom, then I am with the atheists because then God failed miserably. Or to put it another way, I don't see any of God's Kingdom here right now.

 

[Drew]

I find that reasonable, although "inner" is rather gnostic. Rather, He is Lord to His chosen, will be over all at the appointed time, or I should rather say, he will be Lord when people are no longer blinded but right now they are given freedom to follow their own devices. Jesus is Lord, but he's not on the Davidic Throne yet. What's hard to understand about that?

Well for starters, Paul thinks Jesus is on the Davidic throne, as per the Romans text I already posted:

3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared (H)the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Putting a statement of present Lordship together with a connection to David is basically identical to the claim "Jesus is on David's throne".

The rest of the world will be under dominion later on. Right now Satan is the god of this world, so if he is god yet, then God's dominion has not started.

The problem is that there is no specifically Biblical basis for subdividing the world into "the Christians" and "the rest of the world" when it comes to matters of Jesus' kingship. Not to mention that the Bible nowhere sustains the view that Satan is in any sense a ruler of the world, this side of the cross.

Here is yet another text to add to the huge pile supporting the idea that Jesus rules now over all. From Romans 15:

Again Isaiah says,
"THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE,
AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES,
IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."

Note the clear allusion to resurrection through the term “arisesâ€. This establishes that Paul sees Jesus as having attained his rulership as of the cross. But what is the domain over which He rules? Is it just the church? No. Note what we find when we chase up the Isaiah reference?:

Then in that day
The nations will resort to the root of Jesse,
Who will stand as a signal for the peoples;
And His resting place will be glorious.

As of His resurrection, Jesus is enthroned as lord over all nations, not merely over the members of the church.

Again, I raise the possibility of anachronistic thinking. When, in Paul’s time, someone said “Caesar is lordâ€, this was not a “take it or leave it kind of thingâ€, a kingship claim limited to a subset of humanity. It meant “Ceasar is king, get on your knees and pay your taxes, all of you!â€.

Now Paul would probably not put things quite that way in respect to Jesus. Remember the culture when you read Paul saying “Jesus is Lord†– in a world where people are used to “Caesar is Lord†in the sense just described, the message would have been more than clear: Jesus replaces Caesar as lord of the present world.

 

[Drew]

If zodiac signs are true, mine says I am idealistic and have rose-colored glasses. But even with my glasses I can see that there is war, famine, strife and everything bad--- that's obvious even looking at everything rosy. If there was no hope of a future Kingdom, then I am with the atheists because then God failed miserably. Or to put it another way, I don't see any of God's Kingdom here right now.

We have been over this many times. The "sad state" of the world is not any kind of argument against the present kingship of Jesus.

The key text is this one from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

My argument follows:

1. The assertion is that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness – the present reality of such things are seen as inconsistent with the assertion that Jesus presently reigns;

2. Paul says that Jesus must reign until all enemies have been defeated;

3. This means that, at some points in his reign, there will remain enemies yet to be defeated;

4. Suffering and wickedness are two possible candidates - two of the enemies that, at some point (or points) in the reign, could remain undefeated.

5. One of these points could be the present time.

6. Therefore the assertion that that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness is overturned.

 

[Sinthesis]

...but the first point is to know that Ezekiel 36-37 were being fulfilled at the national scale around the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. :o :o :o

Can you elaborate?

I will later, sometime this weekend because I'll be away for the next couple of days. Until then, the fulfillment is in a 'national resurection' yet points to our individual 'personal resurection' made possible because of the work of Christ and promised to those who repent. As for the direction this thread has taken, my viewpoint does include Christ's current Reign.

 

[tim-from-pa]

So Drew:

What are you saying your interpretation of "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." means?

The fact is that there is still evil in this world, so is Jesus going to "progressively" improve the world??

As for Paul stating that Jesus is from David's lineage, there is nothing in that passage that claims he is on the Davidic throne now, as the throne is an earthly throne Here's scripture:

Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

The sun and moon witness to things on earth, not heaven where

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The sun and moon is too inferior to witness to a throne in heaven. In case it has gone unnoticed, God always had that throne, so that is nothing new save Jesus due to His atoning work was given the seat of the right Hand of God. This is not the same, and if I were smart I'd wager my bank accounts and stocks that you cannot find me one scripture that directly says or suggests that the throne of David was moved there to heaven. If it was, there would be no need for a return of Jesus, which BTW, Paul emphatically taught the return of Jesus.

Again, God always reigned in that respect, but I am talking about the ultimate earthly manifestation of that reign in the throne of King David, the covenant of salt which is very much in effect yet.

 

[Drew]

So Drew:

What are you saying your interpretation of "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." means?

The fact is that there is still evil in this world, so is Jesus going to "progressively" improve the world??

This is not really a matter of "my" interpretation. Paul's statement really leaves no doubt: Jesus must do what? Reign. Until what? Until all enemies are under his feet.

There is no "wiggle" room here - Jesus' reign does not instantly make all problems go away. But he still reigns, nevertheless.

 

[Drew]

Here's scripture:

Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

The sun and moon witness to things on earth, not heaven where

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The sun and moon is too inferior to witness to a throne in heaven.

This argument defeats itself. If, as you suggest, the "sun and the moon witness to things on earth" how can the Psalmist write "and his throne as the sun before me." By context, the "me" here is God the father. But God the Father is in heaven where, according to your argument, He should not be able to see the throne.

 

[tim-from-pa]

So Drew:

What are you saying your interpretation of "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." means?

The fact is that there is still evil in this world, so is Jesus going to "progressively" improve the world??

This is not really a matter of "my" interpretation. Paul's statement really leaves no doubt: Jesus must do what? Reign. Until what? Until all enemies are under his feet.

There is no "wiggle" room here - Jesus' reign does not instantly make all problems go away. But he still reigns, nevertheless.

Fine. He's reigning then, but he's still not on the throne of David yet, so I guess that means what you understand Paul as saying "put all enemies under his feet" manifests itself when He returns to take that throne and establish His Kingdom here on earth. If that's the case, then that is what I've been basically saying.

Nobody denies Jesus reigns if in that sense you mean being Lord over all. God always had that Throne in heaven. I'm talking about the earthly Davidic Government of Messiah is not here yet. That is undeniable.

 

[veteran]

...but the first point is to know that Ezekiel 36-37 were being fulfilled at the national scale around the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. :o :o :o

Can you elaborate?

Ooh, this would make a good topic of it's own. :yes

Yet it could easily be proven to be a false assumption, no disrespect intended.

Ezekiel 37 contains prophecy about both houses of Israel being joined back together, in the land of Promise (middleast), with David as their "prince" and One Shepherd (Christ) over them. That has yet to happen to this day. Still today, quite a number of important Jewish scholars agree the ten tribes are still not joined with them.

In the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, only a very small portion of the "house of Judah" returned from the 70 years Babylon captivity to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. Ezra 2 gives the specific geneaologies of those who returned from Babylon. None of the ten tribes are mentioned. Same goes for the Book of Nehemiah. As a matter of history, the ten tribes were scattered out of the land of Israel first, even around 120 years prior to the START of Judah's captivity to Babylon for 70 years. The king of Assyria, as was his habit to do with conquered nations, took peoples from fives different areas around Babylon, and placed them in the northern lands of Israel in place of the ten tribes. Those would later become known as the Samaritans per the New Testament accounts.

Ezra 1:5
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
(KJV)

The Genesis 49:10 prophecy is a very important link to Judah's Sceptre which Christ Jesus is to inherit on earth. Why not discuss that, especially since it mentions a gathering of the people to Him also?

 

[veteran]

3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared (H)the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Putting a statement of present Lordship together with a connection to David is basically identical to the claim "Jesus is on David's throne".

That's a bit too far of a reach. The verse does not 'directly' say Christ is reigning upon David's throne. Instead, it says Christ Jesus was a son of David according to the flesh, that Christ is The Son of God by power of the resurrection from the dead (i.e., The Father having raised Him). It does not say Christ is sitting upon David's throne.

But we know our Lord Jesus will one day sit upon David's throne...

Luke 1:32-33
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
(KJV)

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.
(KJV)

There's to be a great gathering to Christ when that sceptre departs from Judah's hand and goes to Christ Jesus. That didn't happen in the 1st century A.D. Let's not forget the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus at His coming, as written in God's Word. That gathering to Christ Bible fact is enough to show Christ's return has still not happenned yet today.
.

 

[veteran]

We have been over this many times. The "sad state" of the world is not any kind of argument against the present kingship of Jesus.

You're terribly wrong on that one too! The state of the world is VERY MUCH about Christ's literal reign upon this earth.

The sad state of today's world is what Christ's coming back to this earth in Person is going to deal with, i.e., the wicked! The day of The Lord when Christ returns is not going to be a pleasant day for the wicked of this world. Nor will it be pleasant for the foolish virgins (deceived believers) who fell away from Him because of listening to the wicked workers of iniquity whose job is to devour by causing deception. In that day Christ will say to those deceived foolish virgins, "I never knew you: depart from Me..." (Matt.7:23).

And the prophecy of Ezekiel 38-39 of the battle of Hamongog, and the Armageddon gathering of Rev.16 is about the last battle on earth which is specifically fought by Christ and His army of angels that He will bring with Him.

A deceived believer on Christ CAN loose their righteous garments, and appear naked and ashamed on that day when Christ and the Heavenly is revealed to all...

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

So it's important that we never forget the following...

Rom 14:11-12
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
(KJV)

The wicked on earth have yet to bow their knee to God. That's specifically what Christ's future reign is about, putting all enemies under His footstool. Our Lord Jesus in Revelation showed He will accomplish that rule with "a rod of iron" (Rev.19:15). And His elect servants are to rule with Him having that rod of iron also (Rev.2:27). Where on earth is that manifested today? It isn't, not yet, but it will be when Christ gets here.
.

 

[Drew]

Fine. He's reigning then, but he's still not on the throne of David yet,

No. He is on the thone of David. Paul tells us this in Romans 1, where he writes that Jesus is "lord" - that term would not mean "lord of inner life only" in that culture - and that He is a descendent of David. To the reader in that culture this could only mean one thing - Jesus is the promised occupant of the Davidic throne.

God always had that Throne in heaven. I'm talking about the earthly Davidic Government of Messiah is not here yet. That is undeniable.

These ideas are appealing but they are definitely not Biblical. You say that God has "always had the throne in Heaven". This has a kind of Sunday School appeal to it, but it simply does not stand up to Biblical muster.

God "leaves" his throne when He sends Israel into exile - He is not king as we enter the time of Jesus. But don't take my word for it, listen to the prophets:

From Zech 14:

Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when (B)the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. .....

....And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only (P)one, and His name the only one.

God is going to be King - He has left his throne and promise to return.

And then we have this from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;

In this prophetic vision, we have a scenario where God the Father takes His seat. This means that He must have been “off the throne†before that. Again, the idea that God “has always been king†sounds nice, and it sound re-assuring, but it is decidedly not what the Bible tells us. Yes, God has always been God, but He “gives up†His kingship when He sends the Jews into Israel.

And this from Isaiah 52:

Awake, awake,
Clothe yourself in your strength, O Zion;
Clothe yourself in your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the (C)holy city;
For the uncircumcised and the (D)unclean
Will no longer come into you.
2Shake yourself (E)from the dust, (F)rise up,
O captive Jerusalem;
Loose yourself from the chains around your neck,
O captive daughter of Zion.

The prophet describes a people in slavery, in captivity, and tells them that delivery is at hand. Then later in the chapter we get this:

How lovely on the mountains
Are the feet of him who brings (N)good news,
Who announces peace
And brings good news of happiness,
Who announces salvation,
And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
8Listen! Your watchmen lift up their (P)voices,
They shout joyfully together;
For they will see with their own eyes
When the LORD restores Zion

Clearly Isaiah is talking about the return of a king – a king who had gone away and is only now returning.

And there are more texts like this. So you see, this idea that God has always been on the kingly throne is simply not a Biblical one.

Finally, I wish to restate: We have mountains of Biblical evidence that Jesus presently reigns over the nations. Of course, He is not present to us at this time. But the scriptures are clear. He is Lord right now, and He is Lord over all right now.

 

[Drew]

3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared (H)the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Putting a statement of present Lordship together with a connection to David is basically identical to the claim "Jesus is on David's throne".

That's a bit too far of a reach. The verse does not 'directly' say Christ is reigning upon David's throne.

First of all, the text does not to make its point in some explicit "direct" form as you seem to expect. There is no explicit statement of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible, yet most Christians believe it. Second, it is not a reach. Note this – the very first statement in new Testament:

The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, (B)the son of Abraham:

The gospel writer declares Jesus to be “King†(Christ) and marks Him out as the son of David. That can only be interpreted one way – this gospel writer sees Jesus as occupying the Davidic throne. David was King, Jesus is now being described as King (Messiah means King). And Jesus is described as the son of David. How could a king who is the son of King David not be occupying David’s throne?

There are many other texts that establish that Jesus is both a reigning King and a descendent of David. So when Paul ties kingship together with Davidic descent in Romans 1, there is little doubt – Paul considers Jesus to be a sitting King (look at the text I have already posted from Romans 15 – this show that Paul sees Jesus as a king over the material world) and that He is specifically in the line of David.

I see no way of avoiding the conclusion that Jesus took the Davidic throne 2000 years ago.

 

[Drew]

We have been over this many times. The "sad state" of the world is not any kind of argument against the present kingship of Jesus.

You're terribly wrong on that one too! The state of the world is VERY MUCH about Christ's literal reign upon this earth.

I am not wrong.

The fact that you cannot accept Paul's clear statement that Jesus' reign is in place even while sin and death are in the world is not my problem.

Remember what Paul actually said:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

This is a clear stateiment that Jesus' reign will be in fact established before all the enemies are finally dealt with.

So it's important that we never forget the following...

Rom 14:11-12
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
(KJV)

The wicked on earth have yet to bow their knee to God/

Not a valid argument. The fact that all people have yet to bow to the reigning King does not mean that He is not King right now.

 

[Drew]

And His elect servants are to rule with Him having that rod of iron also (Rev.2:27). Where on earth is that manifested today? It isn't, not yet, but it will be when Christ gets here.

Your argument seems to be that since we do not yet rule with Him, He cannot be King. That is not correct logic, and it flies in the face of 1 Corinthians 15:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

The important is the time ordering - first Jesus, then us. So there is no necessity to see that Jesus' reign cannot begin until we begin our co-reign with Him.

 

[tim-from-pa]

This is a good thread, and I think those of us who truly understand what it is about should converse with each other instead of letting it be derailed by differing opinions, Preterist, replacement theology, or whatever, and stay on the subject which was the solid historical fact that the tribes of Israel are still missing, and that no prophecy regarding their restoration has yet been fulfilled, nor is prophecy applicable to any other group such as "Spiritual Israel" (whatever that means) since the OT was addressed to Israel, and those of the genealogical lineage. No amount of song and dancing (and that's all it is) can change that fact uttered from God and Christ and even Paul himself.

There are effective filtering tools on this forum that I am now using so that comments relevant are the only ones displayed to me, and those of us of the same Spirit can do likewise. This can be an ongoing thread to witness this biblical truth in these ends times for those who are interested, but I don't want to see the thread locked over squabbling off topic and other tomfoolery. Then we have to start all over again. It would be interesting to see how long we can keep this going. I like the subject, and it is the core teaching of the bible.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Now, to continue on with the subject at hand, I would like to revisit the one link I supplied earlier regarding the Jewish Gentleman who sincerely and fervently is looking for the rest of his brethren, the ten tribes (as are many other Jews who understand prophecy) for the return back to Israel.

I have google email alerts, and some alerts I have going are such subjects like "lost tribes" "ark of the covenant" and "red heifer". Like many Christians, I have an interest in end time topics so that none of us are caught with our proverbial pants down.

Anyway, the link I want to supply tonight is a map of the promised land of Israel according to biblical definitions. How often do we read thru the borders written in the bible and have trouble keeping our eyes open? But Yair Davidy put it all together and it results in a map like this:

http://www.britam.org/Questions/QuesLand.html

Scroll down near the bottom to see the map and explanations. Although he does not believe in Jesus as Messiah, he understands that the prophecies in the OT say that the ten tribes would adopt a different religion (imagine even that mentioned!) and he is zealous to have the tribes return again. He also mentions (although I'm not sure how committed he is to the idea) of the Throne of King David In BI teachings and does seem to acknowledge the Judah lineage in European Kings. Of course we know this will occur with Ezekiel 37 which has not occurred yet, nor has anything significant like that occurred yet.

Also notice one other thing--- the Israelites did not ever have all that land in that particular region, although Solomon's Kingdom did extend a tad further, but since it was promised, they will inherit it. They now (and always have) owned it, but just have not possessed the land in its fullness yet.

 

[veteran]

Yes, it is time today for the literal details and conditions of God's Kingdom per His Word be understood, for there is a group in this world today that are bent on creating a very limited fake copy of His kingdom on earth. This is what Apostle Paul was showing us in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture, for that fake kingdom copy with a false one sitting in the temple of God showing himself that he is God MUST occur first prior to our gathering to Christ Jesus.

The royal scepture of Judah which they are to have on earth until Christ's return to claim it, would be an interesting subject to continue. The overturns of Ezekiel involving the "house of Israel" would also link to that.

 

[Drew]

....nor is prophecy applicable to any other group such as "Spiritual Israel" (whatever that means) since the OT was addressed to Israel, and those of the genealogical lineage. .

Paul certainly disagrees with this statement - he definitely believes in the concept of a "spritual Israel" and that, indeed, there are Old Testament promises made in respect to them:

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

Paul's reference here to "law" is a reference to the Torah. What is Paul’s argument here. It is that the heirs of a certain promise made to Abraham include non Jews. This speaks against your assertion – Paul sees some of the Old Testament promises as being made to Gentiles. And, as we shall see, this is not the only place where Paul deploys the concept of a “true†Israel and sets in contrast to national (ethnic) Israel.