Legalism

[Cnkw3]

I stopped reading your post when I came to this: Since all men aren’t saved then there must be a point in time when the blood ”removes sins“. That is a serious doctrinal error!

Then you missed the good stuff

All men (and women) -- all people -- are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It's unfortunate that many people (including yourself) don't realize that. Jesus was sacrificed once for the sins of all people for all time. The penalty for all sin has been paid for!!!

All men are not saved. So there must be a point in time that salvation actually occurs. That the blood washes away their sins.

All anyone has to do is accept the sacrifice on their behalf.

Where does the Bible say this..

Ephesians 2:4-9, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!]— and he raised us up together with him and seated us together with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

If you disagree with this, then you're saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was only partially effective; that there is something more that must be done to earn salvation. That is clearly contrary to Scripture!

Eph 2 does not say…all you have to do is accept Jesus.
Paul, who was writing to people that were already saved, was not telling them HOW to be saved he is explaining the process they had already been through. Did the Ephesians ”just accept Christ“? If so, where do we read about that? Also, did those in Ephesus believe? Were the Ephesians baptized?
Jesus said…he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Did they do this? Yes or no?

 

[jaybo]

I noticed there is no Bible to support this.

Yes it does. This has been proven many times over by going to Acts 10.

Again. Why dont people post scripture with their salvation declarations? If what you are teaching is truth then it must be in there somewhere? Its either in there or you are making it up. Its that simple!

Romans 6:4, "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life."

Doesn't that verse exist in your Bible, or are you just ignoring it?

I noticed there is no Bible to support this.

Yes it does. This has been proven many times over by going to Acts 10.

Again. Why dont people post scripture with their salvation declarations? If what you are teaching is truth then it must be in there somewhere? Its either in there or you are making it up. Its that simple!

Apparently you haven't read these part of Scripture...

"For it is indeed fitting for us to have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separate from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need to do every day what those priests do, to offer sacrifices first for their own sins and then for the sins of the people, since he did this in offering himself once for all." Hebrews 7:26-27

All means all!

Hebrews 10:10-12, "By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again—sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God,"

 

[Cnkw3]

What are those conditions? Again, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

Does one have to believe? Jn 8:24
Does one have to repent? Lk 13:3. Act 2:38, 17:30
Does one have to confess? Rom 10:9-10. Mt 10:32
Does one have to be baptized? Mk 16:16. Acts 2:38, acts 22:16, 1 pet 3:21
We know Jesus said that one MUST be born again and that this birth conations two elements…water and spirit.
How about “calling on the name of the lord”? Condition? Yep!
Salvation doesn’t just happen because you mentally come to some conclusion about Jesus.

 

[Cnkw3]

Romans 6:4, "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life."

Doesn't that verse exist in your Bible, or are you just ignoring it?

Hahah. This verse doesn’t say….baptism is just a ”public "statement" whereby you ritually bury your old self -- after you have been saved, i.e., born again.”
The verses in Rom 6 actually describes what is happening in baptism.
we learn….
Baptism places one “into Christ”. Vs 3
Baptism Is how we come in contact with the death of Christ. Vs 3. The blood
Baptism is a burial. Vs 4. Not a sprinkling or pouring.
Baptism is where we are raised with Christ vs 4. It is how we obey the (gospel) death burial and resurrection of Jesus.
Baptism is the born again process. Vs 4. Raised to walk in newness of life. If that’s not born again then i dont know what is. And this doesn’t happen until raised in baptism. It doesn’t happen before being planted. If so? Where does it say that?
Baptism is when we are “freed from sin”. Vs 17,18

Apparently you haven't read these part of Scripture...

"For it is indeed fitting for us to have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separate from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need to do every day what those priests do, to offer sacrifices first for their own sins and then for the sins of the people, since he did this in offering himself once for all." Hebrews 7:26-27

All means all!

Yes. He did die for ALL. But that doesn’t mean ALL are saved.

Hebrews 10:10-12, "By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again—sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God,"

Yes. He died for ALL but that doesnt say ALL are saved.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Absolutely. So what is the problem with…Whosoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved? This is a promise of God that requires us to meet certain conditions.
He also said….He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Again another promise with conditions. Why is it wrong to think….if i meet these conditions God will save me? He said it, we know he cant lie, so therefore it seems to me that we can have faith in his promise. The problem is when people blow off the conditions God has set and add their own like….saying some prayer to receive salvation when God NEVER made that promise.

Does that mean call, “Lord, Lord Jesus” and voilà one is saved? If not, why not. If so, why didn’t Jesus tell us that’s all we need to do?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Very telling to me that the shed blood of this Jesus who is the Christ presents a problem for you as it pertains to discussing the thief securing salvation ?
This blood being the New Covenant.

Mat 26:28

"Why is it a problem for me? Its not. I have another thread titled…at what point is the blood applied. Feel free to participate.
We all know the blood washes away our sins. Rev 1:5. We all know that Christ tasted death for every man. Since all men aren’t saved then there must be a point in time when the blood ”removes sins“....How did the blood remove the sins of the thief?" ( Cnkw3)

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The answer as to how the blood was first applied on Calvary to the one thief and not the other is not complicated.
God provided two malefactors instead of one, so that even the most spiritually circumscribed person could understand the clear difference.
Even the other thief who's pride killed him that day believed in a coming Messiah fully capable of supernatural acts:
" If thou be the Christ, save thyself and us." (Luke 23:39)
Both of these men obviously being familiar with Jesus and His works, & His Word concerning who He was and why He had come.
But while the one ultimately estimated Jesus to be a doomed fraud in that he was looking for a savior of his flesh, the other penitent thief who longed for the salvation of his alarmed soul was aching for peace in redemption with God and saw Christ's Word for what it truly was coming to fruition before his very eyes, the spotless Lamb of God, His blood being shed the same way he had seen the lambs without spot being slaughtered in the Temple his whole life.
He got it !
This was not lamb's blood that he had watched being shed in the Temple since he was first able to walk, this blood was the redemptive condensation of God Himself.
The other thief being blinded by the pride of his unrepenitent heart and the lust of his flesh.
This man believed he was watching the blood of the Lord and King of the universe upon that cross.
And that through this shedding of His Blood this Jesus was about to come into His Glory and eternal Kingdom as Redeemer of all that would come unto Him.
That is the "point" the blood of God he believed he was watching was applied securing his eternal salvation.

" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)

You assertion that this Jew raised in proximity of the Temple sacrifice, now believing that he was witnessing the sinless Lord God Himself bleeding in redemptive sacrifice upon the cross was too spiritually dimwitted to make that connection shows what low esteem you actually have for him.
I myself have much higher regard for his witness.

 

[Cnkw3]

Does that mean call, “Lord, Lord Jesus” and voilà one is saved? If not, why not. If so, why didn’t Jesus tell us that’s all we need to do?

There’s an entire thread on calling on the name of the lord. I posted many times giving many examples on exactly what that means so if you are interested there is plenty for your review.

 

[jaybo]

Hahah. This verse doesn’t say….baptism is just a ”public "statement" whereby you ritually bury your old self -- after you have been saved, i.e., born again.”
The verses in Rom 6 actually describes what is happening in baptism.
we learn….
Baptism places one “into Christ”. Vs 3
Baptism Is how we come in contact with the death of Christ. Vs 3. The blood
Baptism is a burial. Vs 4. Not a sprinkling or pouring.
Baptism is where we are raised with Christ vs 4. It is how we obey the (gospel) death burial and resurrection of Jesus.
Baptism is the born again process. Vs 4. Raised to walk in newness of life. If that’s not born again then i dont know what is. And this doesn’t happen until raised in baptism. It doesn’t happen before being planted. If so? Where does it say that?
Baptism is when we are “freed from sin”. Vs 17,18


Yes. He did die for ALL. But that doesn’t mean ALL are saved.

Yes. He died for ALL but that doesnt say ALL are saved.

Wow, are you confused!!! Which part of Christ's sacrifice doesn't apply to everyone?

BTW, baptism is a ritual statement. Nothing more. By itself it accomplishes nothing.

 

[Cnkw3]

"Why is it a problem for me? Its not. I have another thread titled…at what point is the blood applied. Feel free to participate.
We all know the blood washes away our sins. Rev 1:5. We all know that Christ tasted death for every man. Since all men aren’t saved then there must be a point in time when the blood ”removes sins“....How did the blood remove the sins of the thief?" ( Cnkw3)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The answer as to how the blood was first applied on Calvary to the one thief and not the other is not complicated.
God provided two malefactors instead of one, so that even the most spiritually circumscribed person could understand the clear difference.
Even the other thief who's pride killed him that day believed in a coming Messiah fully capable of supernatural acts:
" If thou be the Christ, save thyself and us." (Luke 23:39)
Both of these men obviously being familiar with Jesus and His works, & His Word concerning who He was and why He had come.
But while the one ultimately estimated Jesus to be a doomed fraud in that he was looking for a savior of his flesh, the other penitent thief who longed for the salvation of his alarmed soul was aching for peace in redemption with God and saw Christ's Word for what it truly was coming to fruition before his very eyes, the spotless Lamb of God, His blood being shed the same way he had seen the lambs without spot being slaughtered in the Temple his whole life.
He got it !
This was not lamb's blood that he had watched being shed in the Temple since he was first able to walk, this blood was the redemptive condensation of God Himself.
The other thief being blinded by the pride of his unrepenitent heart and the lust of his flesh.
This man believed he was watching the blood of the Lord and King of the universe upon that cross.
And that through this shedding of His Blood this Jesus was about to come into His Glory and eternal Kingdom as Redeemer of all that would come unto Him.
That is the "point" the blood of God he believed he was watching was applied securing his eternal salvation.

" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)

You assertion that this Jew raised in proximity of the Temple sacrifice, now believing that he was witnessing the sinless Lord God Himself bleeding in redemptive sacrifice upon the cross was too spiritually dimwitted to make that connection shows what low esteem you actually have for him.
I myself have much higher regard for his witness.

why wasn’t Paul saved that way? If you are correct then the same thing should have happened on the road to Damascus. Does being on a cross mean more then being on a road? One was a thief. One was a murderer. Why wasnt Paul saved in the same way you say we are saved???…just like the thief.

 

[jaybo]

I noticed there is no Bible to support this.

Yes it does. This has been proven many times over by going to Acts 10.

Again. Why dont people post scripture with their salvation declarations? If what you are teaching is truth then it must be in there somewhere? Its either in there or you are making it up. Its that simple!

You're not making any sense.

 

[jaybo]

Why is it a problem for me? Its not. I have another thread titled…at what point is the blood applied. Feel free to participate.
We all know the blood washes away our sins. Rev 1:5. We all know that Christ tasted death for every man. Since all men aren’t saved then there must be a point in time when the blood ”removes sins“. At what point in time is that for us today? Please use Bible to support your position. If you dont its a waste of time.

How did the blood remove the sins of the thief? The same as it removed the sins of Abraham, David, Moses.
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:24-25
The blood flows forward and backward. David could have never been declared righteous if not for the Blood of Christ.

Where do you get this? What’s perplexing is that you dont want to answer my question about Saul. Why was Saul not saved in the same manner as the thief? He was talking directly with Christ and Jesus told him to go into the city and you will be told there what you MUST do! Did the blood save Saul? When? Why didnt Jesus just declare him saved right then and there on the road? Thats how we are all saved right?

Dont make stuff up. If I said the blood was “useless” for the thief then quote it. If not then stop lying. The problem with people like you is you have been following a false doctrine all your life and you are now so invested in it that there is no turning back. If you admit you need to change then the consequences are too difficult to accept. The Bible talks about people getting themselves into a position where there is no room for repentance. In other words…..its too late.

The problem with people like you is you have been following a false doctrine all your life and you are now so invested in it that there is no turning back.

 

[Cnkw3]

Wow, are you confused!!!

Its one thing to make that statement. Its another to break down my post and explain through the Bible WHY I am “confused’’. Im not just going to take your word for it.

Which part of Christ's sacrifice doesn't apply to everyone?

The part that lacks obedience…
Heb 5:9

BTW, baptism is a ritual statement. Nothing more. By itself it accomplishes nothing.

By itself belief accomplishes nothing. Jame 2:26. Mt 12:42

 

[Cnkw3]

You're not making any sense.

let me break it down for you. You say the baptism in acts 2 “is not“ water baptism. I say it is. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptised everyone of you in the name of Jesus christ.
In acts 10 we see the same man, Peter say this…
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:46-48
So the “baptism in the name of the lord” IS WATER BAPTISM. It is confirmed right here. We know Peter wouldnt command one baptism in acts 2 and a different one in acts 10. They are both water.

 

[jaybo]

Its one thing to make that statement. Its another to break down my post and explain through the Bible WHY I am “confused’’. Im not just going to take your word for it.

The part that lacks obedience…
Heb 5:9

By itself belief accomplishes nothing. Jame 2:26. Mt 12:42

By itself belief accomplishes nothing?

"But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:8-9

 

[Cnkw3]

The problem with people like you is you have been following a false doctrine all your life and you are now so invested in it that there is no turning back.

Yes you are correct in quoting me. But you should have put quotes around that

 

[jaybo]

let me break it down for you. You say the baptism in acts 2 “is not“ water baptism. I say it is. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptised everyone of you in the name of Jesus christ.
In acts 10 we see the same man, Peter say this…
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:46-48
So the “baptism in the name of the lord” IS WATER BAPTISM. It is confirmed right here. We know Peter wouldnt command one baptism in acts 2 and a different one in acts 10. They are both water.

I'm done. Believe whatever false doctrine you wish. I believe what the Bible clearly says.

 

[Cnkw3]

By itself belief accomplishes nothing?

"But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:8-9

See belief by itself accomplishes nothing. You just said so yourself. It looks like confession with the mouth must accompany belief. Why would you post something like this in support of “faith alone” when it clearly doesn’t support it.

 

[Cnkw3]

I'm done. Believe whatever false doctrine you wish. I believe what the Bible clearly says.

David Jeremiah in the sermon i mentioned also said that if you take things away from the gospel you are just as guilty of false doctrine. So if you believe in faith alone you are clearly taking things out of the gospel message so according to DJ you are a fales teacher.

 

[Consecrated Life]

why wasn’t Paul saved that way? If you are correct then the same thing should have happened on the road to Damascus. Does being on a cross mean more then being on a road? One was a thief. One was a murderer. Why wasnt Paul saved in the same way you say we are saved???…just like the thief.

The Thief was saved before Paul.
Accordingly , lets arrive a cogent answer as to how that happened first, why don't we ?
Why is that so perplexing for you ?
You may be surprised as to how helpful in addressing Paul's salvation a cogent answer regarding how the saved thief, who scripture clearly says recognized Jesus as the promised Lord of Glory, was able to rationalize this same Messiah being nailed in a cross next him, dying as he looked him in the eyes?
Here is a clue, scripture also clearly shows the thief recognized that by His bloody most brutal death the Lord Jesus would be entering into His Glorious Kingdom.


" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then you missed the good stuff

All men are not saved. So there must be a point in time that salvation actually occurs. That the blood washes away their sins.

Where does the Bible say this..

Eph 2 does not say…all you have to do is accept Jesus.
Paul, who was writing to people that were already saved, was not telling them HOW to be saved he is explaining the process they had already been through. Did the Ephesians ”just accept Christ“? If so, where do we read about that? Also, did those in Ephesus believe? Were the Ephesians baptized?
Jesus said…he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Did they do this? Yes or no?

Yesterday I ran a search on “accept Jesus” and got no hits, not one. This is no where in the Bible.

Now, I suspect that when a person means “I surrender” as they pray (that awful) “sinners repeat after me so you needn’t express yourself prayer,” then God responds. If they maintain full control of their lives, only say “sorry” for lack of perfection and just want to get their “fire insurance” against hell, He doesn’t.