Legalism

[Cnkw3]

The Thief was saved before Paul.
Accordingly , lets arrive a cogent answer as to how that happened first, why don't we ?
Why is that so perplexing for you ?
You may be surprised as to how helpful in addressing Paul's salvation a cogent answer regarding how the saved thief, who scripture clearly says recognized Jesus as the promised Lord of Glory, was able to rationalize this same Messiah being nailed in a cross next him, dying as he looked him in the eyes?
Here is a clue, scripture also clearly shows the thief recognized that by His bloody most brutal death the Lord Jesus would be entering into His Glorious Kingdom.


" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)

The thief never heard the gospel preached. You have. A testament is not in force while men are alive. Heb 9
This only makes since if Paul followed the same pattern. Actually show me one person after Christ died that was saved like the thief. I will take one example in the NT

 

[Cnkw3]

The Thief was saved before Paul.
Accordingly , lets arrive a cogent answer as to how that happened first, why don't we ?
Why is that so perplexing for you ?
You may be surprised as to how helpful in addressing Paul's salvation a cogent answer regarding how the saved thief, who scripture clearly says recognized Jesus as the promised Lord of Glory, was able to rationalize this same Messiah being nailed in a cross next him, dying as he looked him in the eyes?
Here is a clue, scripture also clearly shows the thief recognized that by His bloody most brutal death the Lord Jesus would be entering into His Glorious Kingdom.


" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)

This actually is a good example of legalism. You are saying the Thief has never been baptised when you dont know anything about the thief. You are defining him in a way the Bible never does. This is being a legalist, basing a doctrine on supposition. If he knows all this about the Lord then that means he heard him or John the Baptist preach. If so then most likely he had been baptized since we are told the whole region went out to be baptized in those days. So, that would mean all he would have to do was repent and ask for forgiveness which is what he did.

 

[Cnkw3]

The Thief was saved before Paul.
Accordingly , lets arrive a cogent answer as to how that happened first, why don't we ?
Why is that so perplexing for you ?
You may be surprised as to how helpful in addressing Paul's salvation a cogent answer regarding how the saved thief, who scripture clearly says recognized Jesus as the promised Lord of Glory, was able to rationalize this same Messiah being nailed in a cross next him, dying as he looked him in the eyes?
Here is a clue, scripture also clearly shows the thief recognized that by His bloody most brutal death the Lord Jesus would be entering into His Glorious Kingdom.


" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)

I also would like an explanation of what you think Heb 9:14-17 means. When did the New covenant come into effect according to Heb 9.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The thief never heard the gospel preached. You have. A testament is not in force while men are alive. Heb 9
This only makes since if Paul followed the same pattern. Actually show me one person after Christ died that was saved like the thief. I will take one example in the NT

Wrong !
The thief clearly had not only heard, and at that moment fully understood the message of Amazing Grace that Jesus came to give, but also realized the life changing transformation through Jesus's Word prior to expiring
as they were both dying.
" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)
Embracing the Gospel's total release from death's fear.
His own spirit being made NEW & empowered by the Son of Man, even as his body was dying.
How strange, your failure as a Christian to recognize the supernatural expenditure of Divine energy that was being bestowed upon that man by the Savior Himself upon Calvary .
It makes me wonder what in your life is responsible for you remaining yoked to such a spiritually disheartened condition?

" Have I not commanded thee! Be strong and of good courage , be not afraid, neither be thou
dismayed for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."
( Joshua 1:9 )

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The thief never heard the gospel preached. You have. A testament is not in force while men are alive. Heb 9
This only makes since if Paul followed the same pattern. Actually show me one person after Christ died that was saved like the thief. I will take one example in the NT

What kind of request is that? Show me one person besides Nicodemus who Jesus said you must be born again to? Show me one to whom Jesus said “go and sin no more” besides the woman caught in adultery. Show me one Jesus found in a tree and invited himself to dinner besides Z. How about one tax collector Jesus called beside Mattheis. How about one who fell off his donkey when Jesus appeared besides Paul.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Another definition of legalism is the upholding of certain ideas that are not actually in scripture or that are not clear in scripture, as critically important issues. This is the definition of legalism that I am most familiar with.
An example of this would be declaring that listening to rock music is sinful.

 

[Cnkw3]

Wrong !
The thief clearly had not only heard, and at that moment fully understood the message of Amazing Grace that Jesus came to give, but also realized the life changing transformation through Jesus's Word prior to expiring
as they were both dying.
" Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" ( Luke 23:42)
Embracing the Gospel's total release from death's fear.
His own spirit being made NEW & empowered by the Son of Man, even as his body was dying.
How strange, your failure as a Christian to recognize the supernatural expenditure of Divine energy that was being bestowed upon that man by the Savior Himself upon Calvary .
It makes me wonder what in your life is responsible for you remaining yoked to such a spiritually disheartened condition?

" Have I not commanded thee! Be strong and of good courage , be not afraid, neither be thou
dismayed for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."
( Joshua 1:9 )

Jesus, days after the thief died said this to his disciples…
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:46-47
The NT gospel message had a BEGINNING. We see that beginning was in Jerusalem long after the thief had died. So, NO! The thief had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ that has been given to the world.
We are told that Cornelius would hear “words” by which he would be saved. Did the thief ever hear these same “words” that Cornelius was to hear in order for him to be saved? NO! Those words had a beginning in Jerusalem after the thief died.
The facts are these….If God wanted us to be saved like the thief then….why didnt he tell us? Please show me in the NT where we are instructed to be saved like the thief? If you cant find that then show me one example in the NT of a person being saved in the same way. If it was going to happen to anybody then it should have happened to Saul. But it didnt. What you are doing is teaching and binding a doctrine on people made up by man because God never gave us the instruction to be “saved like the thief”. This is textbook “legalism”. Man makes up a doctrine and then binds it where God never did.

 

[Cnkw3]

What kind of request is that? Show me one person besides Nicodemus who Jesus said you must be born again to?

Do you think “born again” is the same as “remission of sins”? Can one be “born again” and still be in their sins? Can one be still in their sins and be ”born again”. NO. That is an impossibility. So when Jesus said….
that repentance and remission of sins would be preached beginning at Jerusalem.
Isn’t “remission of sins”….Born Again? If not then please explain why not. When Peter commanded those on Pentecost to repent and be baptized “for the remission of sins” isnt he telling them HOW to be born again?
Peter thought so….
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:22-23
When had these people “obeyed the truth”. Was it not in being obedient to Peters message in Acts 2. 38-41
Peter tells us they were “born again”. So what is your problem with the whole born again concept?

Show me one to whom Jesus said “go and sin no more” besides the woman caught in adultery.

Why is this relevant. If you read what I wrote you will understand that these examples while Jesus walked the earth NEVER heard the gospel preached to them. They never heard. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. So you can bring up all of the OT examples you want. They mean nothing for us and our obedience to the gospel.

Show me one Jesus found in a tree and invited himself to dinner besides Z. How about one tax collector Jesus called beside Mattheis. How about one who fell off his donkey when Jesus appeared besides Paul.

If you think Paul was saved like the thief then please show me how? There is plenty of info there for us to learn from. I love the conversion of Paul. It throws everything right back in the face of all these people teaching thief salvation, faith alone through grace alone salvation, sinners prayer salvation, etc. This is why consecrated life wont answer the question about Saul of Tarsus. It doesn’t help his doctrine so all I get are crickets.
When people don’t answer and want to discuss simple stuff like that it should be a big red flag for you and anyone else. Why are they dodging? It must mean they know it hurts their fake doctrine they have clung to for years.

 

[Cnkw3]

Another definition of legalism is the upholding of certain ideas that are not actually in scripture or that are not clear in scripture, as critically important issues. This is the definition of legalism that I am most familiar with.
An example of this would be declaring that listening to rock music is sinful.

Yes I agree. For anyone to bind something for salvation that did not come from God is “legalism”. It is a made up law that we are supposed to follow. But, God does not give us direction just through direct commands. We also receive information through approved examples. How do we know we are supposed to worship on the first day of the week? We see approved examples of it. Passages like acts 20:7. 1 cor 16:1,2
Why do we use fruit of the vine and unleavened bread for the lord supper? Approved examples. I dont know anyones that uses brownies and milk. Why? Because that is not what they used in the early church. This is also how we learn what God requires of us.
I think this idea of rock music and other pop culture stuff is the long term effect the message can have on people. If all you listened to was….Im on the highway to hell…..What might that do to a person over time? I dont think people are saying that if you happen to listen to music like that on occasion you‘re going to hell, but over time a continued exposure can change your attitude toward spiritual things. Music is very powerful.
I think rap music sends out, a lot of the time, a horrible non christian message. At least some of the stuff I’ve heard. Maybe there is a descent one with a descent message somewhere but I haven’t heard it. This goes for many other things too. What do you listen too? What do you watch? Who do you hang out with? What are you filling your mind with? These are all what shape a person. Paul said…
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Philippians 4:8

 

[evenifigoalone]

I think this idea of rock music and other pop culture stuff is the long term effect the message can have on people. If all you listened to was….Im on the highway to hell…..What might that do to a person over time? I dont think people are saying that if you happen to listen to music like that on occasion you‘re going to hell, but over time a continued exposure can change your attitude toward spiritual things. Music is very powerful.
I think rap music sends out, a lot of the time, a horrible non christian message. At least some of the stuff I’ve heard. Maybe there is a descent one with a descent message somewhere but I haven’t heard it. This goes for many other things too. What do you listen too? What do you watch? Who do you hang out with? What are you filling your mind with? These are all what shape a person. Paul said…
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Philippians 4:8

So this thread isn't about music and I don't want to pull it in that direction.....
But I do think that what's being missed is that not all rock music is equivalent to AC/DC's music.
For instance, this song, a secular song, is a rock song:

All that is near us we must know
Could disappear any day be careful
The main key to finding happiness
Lies nowhere else but in my soul
You could reminisce you could recall
The very last time you felt joy
Or maybe you are so blessed to a point
Where you can't remember anything
It's a harmony, a miracle
Being able to breathe and live at all
So here is your one and only chance
Life is an opportunity
All that is near us we must know
Could disappear any day be careful
The main key to finding happiness
Lies nowhere else but in my soul
You know the closer you get to something
The tougher it is to see it
And I’ll never take it for granted
Let’s go!
Some people may call a kind deed
An act of mere hypocrisy
But never mind those who have lost faith
You shouldn't give in to what they say
As a matter of fact let me tell you
Even if it was for a selfish cause
A salvageable hypocrisy
Is superior to murderous honesty
Everybody tells you from time to time
To never give up like a phrase from a movie
They tell you to stand up for yourself
As if it always that easy
Gather a handful of courage in my heart
To go on and survive another day
And I’ll never take it for granted
Let’s go!
All that is near us we must know
Could disappear any day be careful
The main key to finding happiness
Lies nowhere else but in my soul
You know the closer you get to something
The tougher it is to see it
And I’ll never take it for granted
Everybody tells you from time to time
To never give up like a phrase from a movie
They tell you to stand up for yourself
As if it always that easy
Gather a handful of courage in my heart
To go on and survive another day
And I’ll never take it for granted
Let’s go!

Not to mention that a lot of Christian music uses the rock genre. Rap, too.

Hey mazel tov and all that good stuff man
This is for all my folks who got legal jobs
We beat the odds, you feel me?
We ain't supposed to be here, never thought we see it
Now we living proof, tell the world to believe it yeah
Congratulations, thank God we made it
They told us we was nothing, now I know they hate it
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
I ain't supposed to be nothing but a dope dealer, but a hope killer
Supposed to brag on the guns and the coke kilo's
Dropping molly's in a coke zero
Ashamed of my education, then I'm finally off probation
Then I quit smoking, got a wife and kids and I'm a real father no faking
See I'm a black man who beat them odds
Supposed to be locked up with no job
Never should of went to college or learned who God is
You add it up it's all odd
See I never knew my pops
I been abused, ran from the cops
I went to school
High on them crops
Wasn't a thug, never been shot
Running from God man turning my back
Never would of made it, Marvin Sapp
But He opened up my eyes and I can't look back
While they look surprised, I just tip my cap
Yeah he did it, he did it
He changed me and I'm with it
He made me what I'm supposed to be
You get close to me, you might get it
We ain't supposed to be here, never thought we see it
Now we living proof, tell the world to believe it yeah
Congratulations, thank God we made it
They told us we was nothing, now I know they hate it
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
I ain't even spos' to be here
I ain't even spos' to be livin'
The world is set up for me to
Be dead broke and somewhere locked up in prison
Yeah, I know they be watchin'
Yeah, I know they be listenin'
Yeah, I know that hip-hop police is probably plotting for me
To be missing
And cover it up with the cliche okey doke
And blame it on the pain pill overdose
From the city where they love to hate
But I still got love for my homies tho
They don't want to see us ball out
But we do it anyway
Got a mil' in the bank
Another two up in the safe
Cuz' I do it everday
Know, know me ain't no roomies in the A
All they say that is I could've fool in the A
Don't assume anything
I'm a fool with the pay
I'll be goon till your day
We ain't supposed to be here, never thought we see it
Now we living proof, tell the world to believe it yeah
Congratulations, thank God we made it
They told us we was nothing, now I know they hate it
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
I'm supposed to be dead or in jail right now
But instead, I'm sharing my gift with the world
Now she used to strip at Onyx
Working her way through college
Tryna put food in her son's mouth
On a pole for them dollars
She was looking for some solace
Told the Lord, I promise. I'm heading to the hills with my heels on
Where the feels ain't a touch to the billfolds
No copping feels from no Uncle Phil's, just Phil Jackson coach her
And get her out that game where they losing they dignity for a Coach purse
No skirts just "skrr", found another way around a real worth
And left that fine establishment
It's like her whole life is having a growth
Spurt
She out the game and they hate it, mad at her she made it (haters)
They ain't nothing but some shellfish in a bucket
Probably get crabs if you touch it
Now she graduated from college -- scratch that -- graduated with honors
Little man got a little cap and gown, look at him matching his mama, yeah!
We ain't supposed to be here, never thought we see it
Now we living proof, tell the world to believe it yeah
Congratulations, thank God we made it
They told us we was nothing, now I know they hate it
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds
Round of applause, round of applause
Congratulations, we beat them odds

 

[Cnkw3]

So this thread isn't about music and I don't want to pull it in that direction.....
But I do think that what's being missed is that not all rock music is equivalent to AC/DC's music.
For instance, this song, a secular song, is a rock song:

Not to mention that a lot of Christian music uses the rock genre. Rap, too.

I don’t disagree.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don’t disagree.

Cool, my guy.

 

[jerry63935]

Does one have to believe? Jn 8:24
Does one have to repent? Lk 13:3. Act 2:38, 17:30
Does one have to confess? Rom 10:9-10. Mt 10:32
Does one have to be baptized? Mk 16:16. Acts 2:38, acts 22:16, 1 pet 3:21
We know Jesus said that one MUST be born again and that this birth conations two elements…water and spirit.
How about “calling on the name of the lord”? Condition? Yep!
Salvation doesn’t just happen because you mentally come to some conclusion about Jesus.

reckon Jesus had to be saved since he was baptized

 

[jerry63935]

The thief never heard the gospel preached. You have. A testament is not in force while men are alive. Heb 9
This only makes since if Paul followed the same pattern. Actually show me one person after Christ died that was saved like the thief. I will take one example in the NT

amazing how did he know to say to Jesus remember me Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise Jesus was the word of God your sounding like Church of Christ

 

[Cnkw3]

reckon Jesus had to be saved since he was baptized

Jesus was baptized to “fulfill all righteousness”. He did not sin. We do. Therefore we need our sins washed away. When does that happen? The Bible is very clear on this fact. It tells us with precision the very moment our sins are removed. And its not at the point of belief.

 

[jerry63935]

Jesus was baptized to “fulfill all righteousness”. He did not sin. We do. Therefore we need our sins washed away. When does that happen? The Bible is very clear on this fact. It tells us with precision the very moment our sins are removed. And its not at the point of belief.

aww so it was a different water baptism curious does the words it is finished ring a bell?

 

[Cnkw3]

amazing how did he know to say to Jesus remember me Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise Jesus was the word of God your sounding like Church of Christ

Are you arguing that the thief was never baptized? If so, then prove it. He easily could have been baptized with Johns baptism earlier, especially if he was a jew. You dont even know If he was a Jew or gentile.
Did the gospel Jesus want preached have a “beginning”? Yes or no. Lk 24:45-47.
Was this before or after the thief?

 

[jerry63935]

Are you arguing that the thief was never baptized?

sure he was just before he was crucified. he told the guards hold up boys .i got to be baptized first . no more time im fixing head out to church.. give you time gather more straw

 

[Cnkw3]

aww so it was a different water baptism curious does the words it is finished ring a bell?

Johns baptism was a different baptism. Why is this so hard?
What does “it is finished” mean to you? You think it has anything to do with baptism? Johns baptism may have been finished but Jesus, after his resurrection, said that a new message would have a beginning in Jerusalem. Lk 24:47
So one was finished and another was just beginning.

 

[Cnkw3]

sure he was just before he was crucified. he told the guards hold up boys .i got to be baptized first . no more time im fixing head out to church.. give you time gather more straw

What did the thief do for the three years before he was on this cross? While John and Jesus were out preaching baptism.