Legalism

[Cnkw3]

it shows oh and BTW i am the pastor and your correct on another thing on the new cov.. it has nothing to do with water baptism . its based on the finished works of Christ here add some more water to your work based salvation . maybe i should find the kind bible you use so i can understand mine teaches Blood attornment

Your Bible, unless it’s maybe the message Bible, doesn’t teach ”blood atonement‘ ALONE!
Ive never said that we aren’t saved by the blood of Jesus. But its not by the blood alone.
In Rev1:5 we are told that the blood washes away our sins. Heres the million dollar question a pastor should be able to answer…….
At what point does the Bible say our sins are removed, washed away?

and justified by grace blood faith.

Your Bible does not say….Justified by grace ALONE!
Your Bible does not say…Justified by faith ALONE!
are we justified by faith…yes Rom 5:1. But not faith alone. Jam 2:24
Are we justified by grace…yes. Tit 3:7
But how are we “justified by grace”?
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
It is “through the redemption that is found “in Christ”? Here’s another million dollar question a pastor should be able to answer. The PhD couldn’t do it but maybe the pastor can.
How does the Bible say one gets “into Christ”?

i have observed not once have you used any of them

How so? Has anyone started talking about Grace? Not to my knowledge. Not the stuff I’ve read. I talk about faith or belief all the time. There are many things we are saved by but I dont mention them all every time. We are saved by grace, we are saved by faith, we are saved by the blood, we are saved by hope, we are saved by baptism, we are saved by works, we are saved by calling on the name of the Lord, we are saved by the word, etc…

Very simply, baptism is an outward testimony of the inward change in a believer’s life. Christian baptism is an act of obedience to the Lord after salvation;

Why doesn’t anybody EVER include a scripture with this nonsense? Because it’s MADE UP! You made that up. Thats the only thing they teach you at seminary. You have to sign a piece of paper saying that youll teach this false doctrine.
Jesus said….salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Mk 16:16.
Peter says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Acts 2:38. 1 Pet 3:21
Paul says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Rom 6:2-4; 6:17,18
The Eunuch went away rejoicing AFTER baptism.
The Jailor was called a believer AFTER baptism.
Paul laid his hands on those in Ephesus AFTER he baptized them for a second time. Acts 19
Saul of Tarsus was still in his sins days after he had believed, confessed, repented and prayed. His sins weren’t washed away until AFTER baptism. Acts 9,22,26

Now its your turn….show me all the examples and passages that support your doctrine of salvation before baptism. There should be loads of them.

although baptism is closely associated with salvation, it is not a requirement to be saved. ( read the article ) your either apostolic , church of Christ or catholic . they are the only 3 i know of holds your belief

What is the meaning of the blood of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

What is the meaning of the blood of Christ? Why is the blood of Jesus so emphasized in the New Testament?

www.gotquestions.org

I dont need a mand made article. You need to get off this stuff.

once again this is written by a Calvinist . while i am not Calvinist i do agree with the article.

lets see the old song what can wash away my sins? nothing but the Blood of Jesus .

Yes. But WHEN DOES THAT HAPPEN?
At what point does the Bible say our sins are “washed away”? Do you have an open and honest heart? If so then you will use the Bible….book, chapter, and verse and show it to me. I dont need any man made articles. The Bible is very plain on this point. It requires no interpretation. All you have to do is be honest enough to read it and post it.

' when i see the Blood i will pass over you . we take Lords supper two elements are represented the Blood and his broken body

What does the Lords supper have to do with any of this?

 

[jerry63935]

Now its your turn….show me all the examples and passages that support your doctrine of salvation before baptism.

done did that you keep watering it down be my guest. you keep changing up one time you say we must be baptized to be saved then you say we dont . here is your scripture

James 1:8

King James Version

​

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

both of you have backed up changed your stance. saying you never said then go right back to water baptism.... which is outward not inward

 

[Cnkw3]

done did that you keep watering it down be my guest. you keep changing up one time you say we must be baptized to be saved then you say we dont . here is your scripture

Again..you just made all of that up and you lied about me. I have NEVER said…we do not have to be baptized in order to be saved. If so then show me the quote.
And…..You have NOT given me any Bible teaching or examples that show salvation BEFORE baptism. Where are they.?Ive looked. I don’t see them..

James 1:8​

King James Version​

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

both of you have backed up changed your stance. saying you never said then go right back to water baptism.... which is outward not inward

Post my quote where I “changed my stance”. I’ll be looking for it. Be careful because you might just be in the process of showing yourself to be the ”unstable” one.

 

[jerry63935]

ou have NOT given me any Bible teaching or examples that show salvation BEFORE baptism

get you some glasses you might see better yet get you some eye salve . your either apostolic or church of Christ

we are saved by works

i am through simply do to your work based salvation you want grace i covered that in Ephesians 2. I've showed scripture of being justified //which none reads justified by water baptism .

the only thing i failed to post is baptized by the spirit into the Body of Christ by one spirit . dont stay out of water to long// you might not make it like a fish out of water . good day to you

 

[andy pandy]

So when David Jeremiah calls me a “legalist“ for “adding baptism to the gospel” we can know he is a false teacher.

When did you meet David for him to tell you that?

 

[andy pandy]

Could you define how vital you consider that to be, " ..a part of salvation.." ?
According to Jesus the thief on the cross who joined Jesus in paradise that day was a full partaker in salvation .
Do you believe that his failure not to partake in the , " ..part of salvation.." you mention , that part being baptism, somehow caused his final estate to be diminished ?
Was Jesus lying to him ?

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

As the thief on the cross was the exception not the rule, I don't think we have to worry about that too much.

 

[andy pandy]

I don’t think a christian will sit in casinos

Why? That sounds like legalism

I dont think Christian’s will go to certain kind of movies.

Why? That sounds like legalism

I dont think Christian’s should perform certain types of dancing

Why? That sounds like legalism.

 

[Cnkw3]

When did you meet David for him to tell you that?

Heard it on his radio program.

 

[Cnkw3]

Why? That sounds like legalism

You want to take up for casinos? They do so much good for society.

Why? That sounds like legalism

You want to take up for porn and soft porn? You think Gods ok with that? I could post passages to this stuff but what’s the use?

Why? That sounds like legalism.

What does “lascivious” mean? In your opinion of higher learning.
See, I told you that you teach false doctrine. You stand up for casinos, porn, movies with horrible language, and shaking, grabbing and grinding with someone of the opposite sex out of marriage.
And all you can say is….”that sounds like legalism”! Its good to know that your school of higher learning taught you that God has no law we are to be obedient too.

 

[Cnkw3]

get you some glasses you might see better yet get you some eye salve . your either apostolic or church of Christ

Im looking….i dont see it. All you have to do is copy and paste in your next post. That is not difficult and it takes no time. I want to see all of the passages that tell us or show us that we are saved “before” baptism.

i am through simply do to your work based salvation you want grace i covered that in Ephesians 2. I've showed scripture of being justified //which none reads justified by water baptism .

Eph 2? I showed you that Paul was writing to people that had been baptized twice. You act like they had never seen water. When did Paul give them the Spirit? Before or after baptism?
I asked....can you be “justified” and still in your sins? Why dont you answer me?
The Bible is clear and plain about the exact point our sins are removed.

This is how you copy and paste…
Jesus said….salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Mk 16:16.
Peter says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Acts 2:38. 1 Pet 3:21
Paul says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Rom 6:2-4; 6:17,18
The Eunuch went away rejoicing AFTER baptism.
The Jailor was called a believer AFTER baptism.
Paul laid his hands on those in Ephesus AFTER he baptized them for a second time. Acts 19
Saul of Tarsus was still in his sins days after he had believed, confessed, repented and prayed. His sins weren’t washed away until AFTER baptism. Acts 9,22,26
That took all of 10 seconds. Now copy and paste your list.

the only thing i failed to post is baptized by the spirit into the Body of Christ by one spirit . dont stay out of water to long// you might not make it like a fish out of water . good day to you

You are referring to 1 Cor 12:13. Were the CorinthIan’s baptized in water? Yes.
There are many translations that say…”in one spirit”!
Youngs literal says this..
for also in one Spirit we all to one body were baptized,
This speaks of a totally different message. This passage is not saying that it was the Spirit who literally did the baptizing.
Through the Spirit we all come to the same conclusion that we need to be baptized into the body. Paul uses the same language a couple of chapters earlier..
1 Cor 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Dose the law literally bind the wife? No it binds by what it teaches. It teaches the wife to live a certain way.
In the same way. Does the Spirit literally do the baptizing into the body? No. He does this through his teaching. We wouldnt know anything about baptism without the teaching of the Spirit. Same for Jesus as Lord, read 1 cor 12:3
If you are correct then show me all the examples of people in the NT that were “baptized by the Spirit” in order to place them “into Christ”.

Rom 6 and Gal 3 clearly teach that it is water baptism that places us “into Christ” Or “into the body“. They are one and the same.
Hey…I copied and pasted again. It works well.

 

[jaybo]

Im looking….i dont see it. All you have to do is copy and paste in your next post. That is not difficult and it takes no time. I want to see all of the passages that tell us or show us that we are saved “before” baptism.

Eph 2? I showed you that Paul was writing to people that had been baptized twice. You act like they had never seen water. When did Paul give them the Spirit? Before or after baptism?
I asked....can you be “justified” and still in your sins? Why dont you answer me?
The Bible is clear and plain about the exact point our sins are removed.

This is how you copy and paste…
Jesus said….salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Mk 16:16.
Peter says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Acts 2:38. 1 Pet 3:21
Paul says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Rom 6:2-4; 6:17,18
The Eunuch went away rejoicing AFTER baptism.
The Jailor was called a believer AFTER baptism.
Paul laid his hands on those in Ephesus AFTER he baptized them for a second time. Acts 19
Saul of Tarsus was still in his sins days after he had believed, confessed, repented and prayed. His sins weren’t washed away until AFTER baptism. Acts 9,22,26
That took all of 10 seconds. Now copy and paste your list.


You are referring to 1 Cor 12:13. Were the CorinthIan’s baptized in water? Yes.
There are many translations that say…”in one spirit”!
Youngs literal says this..
for also in one Spirit we all to one body were baptized,
This speaks of a totally different message. This passage is not saying that it was the Spirit who literally did the baptizing.
Through the Spirit we all come to the same conclusion that we need to be baptized into the body. Paul uses the same language a couple of chapters earlier..
1 Cor 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Dose the law literally bind the wife? No it binds by what it teaches. It teaches the wife to live a certain way.
In the same way. Does the Spirit literally do the baptizing into the body? No. He does this through his teaching. We wouldnt know anything about baptism without the teaching of the Spirit. Same for Jesus as Lord, read 1 cor 12:3
If you are correct then show me all the examples of people in the NT that were “baptized by the Spirit” in order to place them “into Christ”.

Rom 6 and Gal 3 clearly teach that it is water baptism that places us “into Christ” Or “into the body“. They are one and the same.
Hey…I copied and pasted again. It works well.

Believe what you want. Salvation is a gift from God and doesn't require baptism or any other ritual.

Ephesians 2:8, " For by grace you are saved through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Baptism is a "work".

Read your Bible!

 

[Cnkw3]

Believe what you want. Salvation is a gift from God and doesn't require baptism or any other ritual.

Ephesians 2:8, " For by grace you are saved through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Baptism is a "work".

Read your Bible!

I do! Does the Bible say the following or not…..
Jesus said….salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Mk 16:16.
Peter says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Acts 2:38. 1 Pet 3:21
Paul says salvation occurs AFTER baptism. Rom 6:2-4; 6:17,18
Paul says we are quickened AFTER baptism COL 2
The Eunuch went away rejoicing AFTER baptism.
The Jailor was called a believer AFTER baptism.
Paul laid his hands on those in Ephesus AFTER he baptized them for a second time. Acts 19
Saul of Tarsus was still in his sins days after he had believed, confessed, repented and prayed. His sins weren’t washed away until AFTER baptism. Acts 22:16

In Joshua 6. God came to Joshua and said….I have given you the city of Jericho.
Because the city was a gift from God does this mean the Israelites did not have to follow Gods commands for taking the city? Did they have to march 7 times? Did they have to do it for 7 days? Sounds strange as a military strategy? Did they have to march then blow the horns? What if they said…God we aren’t doing that nonsense. You gave us a gift why should we have to do ANYTHING to receive that gift?
This is, in essence, the argument you are making. I would hate to be on that side of the argument.

 

[andy pandy]

Heard it on his radio program.

So you had a conversation with him on his radio programme.

 

[for_his_glory]

paul WAS NOT made to do anything against his will.

paul wasn’t saved this way either. You are making this up. After Jesus was raised from the dead he appeared to people for 40 days. Why is Paul any different then the other apostles? Paul WAS NOT saved on the road. He was then told to go into the city and it would be told him what he must do. so far Paul had believed, repented, and confessed him as lord and will ultimately be obedient in baptism washing away his sins. Just like those on Pentecost. Just like those in Samaria. Just like the Eunuch. Just like Cornelius. it took 3 miracles to save Cornelius and his family. Do you discount their example because miracles were performed? miracles were performed at about all of these conversions. Christ came to Paul, not for salvation, but in order to send him out as an apostle. Nobody else was needed to be an apostle so that is why Jesus appeared to no others post ascension. So YES you are very confused in your Bible understanding.


I just showed you above that Paul became a Christian like everyone else. He heard the word of the lord. He believed, repented, confessed him as lord and then was baptized to wash his sins away. And yes he could have said no. He DID NOT become a Christian on the road in the presence of the lord.

Quit telling others that they make things up. Just as you give your understanding they too give theirs even if both parties do not agree with each other. If this keeps up, as I have seen this action of yours in other threads and you have been warned about this before, you will be banned from CF.

 

[jaybo]

paul WAS NOT made to do anything against his will.

paul wasn’t saved this way either. You are making this up. After Jesus was raised from the dead he appeared to people for 40 days. Why is Paul any different then the other apostles? Paul WAS NOT saved on the road. He was then told to go into the city and it would be told him what he must do. so far Paul had believed, repented, and confessed him as lord and will ultimately be obedient in baptism washing away his sins. Just like those on Pentecost. Just like those in Samaria. Just like the Eunuch. Just like Cornelius. it took 3 miracles to save Cornelius and his family. Do you discount their example because miracles were performed? miracles were performed at about all of these conversions. Christ came to Paul, not for salvation, but in order to send him out as an apostle. Nobody else was needed to be an apostle so that is why Jesus appeared to no others post ascension. So YES you are very confused in your Bible understanding.


I just showed you above that Paul became a Christian like everyone else. He heard the word of the lord. He believed, repented, confessed him as lord and then was baptized to wash his sins away. And yes he could have said no. He DID NOT become a Christian on the road in the presence of the lord.

Actually he did become a Christian on the road to Damascus in the presence of the lord. He was on his way to continue persecuting Christians when Jesus knocked him down...

Acts 9:1-5, "Meanwhile Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he was going along and approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” He asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Then 9:19-20, "For several days he was with the disciples in Damascus, and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God.”

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What are those conditions? Again, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

Hi jaybo.
I see Eph.2:8 meaning, we're saved by Jesus holding back his wrath, like he did when ungodly men crucified him. That's grace. We believe in the love he showed toward people who hated him and have faith that he still does. Of course, this doesn't mean repentance isn't required to be saved. It just means we have nothing to boast about because we all need his mercy, because we realize we're no better than those who sinned against him by spitting on him. Does that make sense?

 

[jaybo]

Hi jaybo.
I see Eph.2:8 meaning, we're saved by Jesus holding back his wrath, like he did when ungodly men crucified him. That's grace. We believe in the love he showed toward people who hated him and have faith that he still does. Of course, this doesn't mean repentance isn't required to be saved. It just means we have nothing to boast about because we all need his mercy, because we realize we're no better than those who sinned against him by spitting on him. Does that make sense?

I don't equate grace with the holding back of wrath. God gave us the gift of salvation because He loves don't, not because He's angry. After all, John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

Even though I was an atheist, I never thought of (figuratively) spitting on Jesus. I just thought all Christians, actually all believers in God, were delusional. That was until He healed me in the hospital!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't equate grace with the holding back of wrath.

I do. To me that's the gospel. Jesus held back his own wrath.

God gave us the gift of salvation because He loves don't, not because He's angry. After all, John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

But not everyone will be saved, so it's both. As far as the love of God goes, can you imagine hanging on a cross while your creation mocks you?

Even though I was an atheist, I never thought of (figuratively) spitting on Jesus. I just thought all Christians, actually all believers in God, were delusional. That was until He healed me in the hospital!

My dear Christian brother, we've all spit on Jesus many times. We just don't see our sin that way. But we do know,

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Jas.2:10

 

[jaybo]

I do. To me that's the gospel. Jesus held back his own wrath.

But not everyone will be saved, so it's both. As far as the love of God goes, can you imagine hanging on a cross while your creation mocks you?

My dear Christian brother, we've all spit on Jesus many times. We just don't see our sin that way. But we do know,

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Jas.2:10

The overall content of your post (and your faith) strikes me as being almost negative.

The gospel is (to you) Jesus holding back His wrath? What about God's love for His children? Remember the parable of the prodigal son? What was the father's reaction? Luke 15:20a, "But while he was still a long way from home his father saw him, and his heart went out to him; he ran and hugged his son and kissed him. That is God's attitude to those who turn to Him, not wrath.

You're speaking for yourself, perhaps, when you write "we've all spit on Jesus many times". I have never "spit on Jesus" since I've been a Christian, nor has any other Christian whom I know.

And then your write "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" Jas.2:10 Have you forgotten this verse? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4 and many others like it?

How about Romans 8:1-4, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

I am concerned about your spiritual state. Being in Christ is being in God's love! God is our Abba, our loving father. We are free from the power of sin and the law, and have eternal life and peace in Christ.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The overall content of your post (and your faith) strikes me as being almost negative.

The gospel is (to you) Jesus holding back His wrath? What about God's love for His children? Remember the parable of the prodigal son? What was the father's reaction? Luke 15:20a, "But while he was still a long way from home his father saw him, and his heart went out to him; he ran and hugged his son and kissed him. That is God's attitude to those who turn to Him, not wrath.

Gods' heart went out to us when his Son came into this world. If he came at that time for judgment, that would have been the end of the unrepentant. Instead, he showed mercy towards those who hated him. This Godly love is the attitude toward us before we turned to him It's why we turned to him.

You're speaking for yourself, perhaps, when you write "we've all spit on Jesus many times". I have never "spit on Jesus" since I've been a Christian, nor has any other Christian whom I know.

I wasn't talking about our attitude "after" coming to know Jesus.

And then your write "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" Jas.2:10 Have you forgotten this verse? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4 and many others like it?

I haven't forgotten. Dying to the law "also" (meaning as our Lord did), is a matter of not enforcing it, because the law could not condemn God in the flesh. Jesus didn't become dead to the law by his own sin, but by the sins inflicted on him by ungodly men. By law, Jesus could have had everyone one of them executed Immediately. And since our Innocent Savior considered himself dead to the law, how much more should we the guilty?

How about Romans 8:1-4, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

This verse defines "those who are in Christ Jesus" as, those who "walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit."

For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit is the 2 commandments Jesus said to keep.

For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh.

In other words, on earth, only Jesus was sinless, keeping the whole law.

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh

In other words, God appeared as any othet sinner, but he wasn't a sinner.

and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

In other words, he put their sin against him to death...according to the law of Moses. According to Moses, they should have been executed,

if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite,
then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. Deu.19:18-19

so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

In other words, fulfill the law as our King did... walking after his example.

I am concerned about your spiritual state. Being in Christ is being in God's love! God is our Abba, our loving father. We are free from the power of sin and the law, and have eternal life and peace in Christ.

I agree. Do you agree slaughtering the Lamb should produce sorrow, confession and a true desire to turn from our sins against him?