Limited atonement !

[journeyman]

Ah, maybe you could search the Reform Statement of Faith (https://1689londonbaptistconfession.com/ ) and find the statement that says they believe God tortures and kills innocent men in violation of His law. Give me a quote, not a fabrication.

Chapter 11. Of Justification​

3. "Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those who are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their steadthe penalty due to them..."

Here one proof text used to support their heresy:
8. Hebrews 10:14; Heb.10:14 and the surrounding text doesn't mean "Jesus died once in place of sinners." It means he allowed himself to be abused once. When Christ returns, those who chose not to repent of their sins against him will be killed,

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. Heb.10:11-12

those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Lk.19:27

My guess is this is just a fantasy of yours. The GOD PUNISHES INNOCENT MEN fantasy of Reformed Theology (never heard of it)

Penal substutution says our Father punished his Son in place of lawbreakers. That's heresy.

 

[journeyman]

brightflame52 said:
Your post in the thread Limited atonement ! was deleated. Reason: Thats heresy that Jesus wasnt punished for sinners.

I've said all along Jesus was punished by sinners for sins he didn't commit. Instead of judging those evil men, be bore their sinful treatment of himself patiently. Our The Messiah was prophesied to show mankind how loving and patient God is towards sinners,

Him, being deliveredby the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain Act.2:23

After his resurrection, many repented of their sins against him,

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Act.2:37

Peter told them to repent.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and redeemed unto God. Heb 9:12,15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Now those He died for and redeemed are they which are called, to receive the promise of eternal inheritance or eternal life.

In Gods economy of Salvation, His Kingdom, them who Christ died and redeemed shall be called Isa 43:1

But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Zech 10:8

I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

That word hiss means to whistle, pipe it denotes the call of them to be gathered

So the redeemed by the death of Christ, will be effectually called, and that by name, and gathered to their Shepherd !

So the death of Christ is limited to the redeemed, and then called and gathered !18

 

[rogerg]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and redeemed unto God. Heb 9:12,15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Now those He died for and redeemed are they which are called, to receive the promise of eternal inheritance or eternal life.

In Gods economy of Salvation, His Kingdom, them who Christ died and redeemed shall be called Isa 43:1

But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Zech 10:8

I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

That word hiss means to whistle, pipe it denotes the call of them to be gathered

So the redeemed by the death of Christ, will be effectually called, and that by name, and gathered to their Shepherd !

So the death of Christ is limited to the redeemed, and then called and gathered !18

Correct, brightfame52. And not only that, but those who believe otherwise, believe sin still remains in full force and effect, even after being remitted by Christ, and that only by their action can it be completed, which action, is in their coming to faith in Christ. However, I think it otherwise - that when remitted by Christ, it is gone forever and thrown behind God's back.

[Luk 1:77-78 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

Correct, brightfame52. And not only that, but those who believe otherwise, believe sin still remains in full force and effect, even after being remitted by Christ,

Yes, people Christ died for have been redeemed from the power of sin and made servants of righteousness which is to be made believers. Rom 6:17-18

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Made free is the greek eleutheroō:

1. to make free
2. set at liberty: from the dominion of sin

Jesus used the word of Himself, His redeeming death John 8:36

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

even after being remitted by Christ, and that only by their action can it be completed, which action, is in their coming to faith in Christ. However, I think it otherwise - that when remitted by Christ, it is gone forever and thrown behind God's back.

Yes the sins of the redeemed are forgiven and gone forever, thats the Blood of the Covenant Christ shed for that reason Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Here again theyre gone forever before the remembrance of God Heb 8:12-13

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In fact Roger if Christ died for our sins, they have been forgiven even before we were born into them

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and reconciled unto God. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Eph 2:16

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross/or death, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now the word reconciled in Col 1:21 is the greek word apokatallassō:

1. to reconcile completely
2. to reconcile back again
3. bring back a former state of harmony

There is no such thing as Christ dying for people and they not be reconciled to God completely, which is nothing short of Salvation !

So His death is limited to the reconciled completely !

 

[brightfame52]

Here are some scriptures that confirm limited atonement, or that Christ died for only some, not all without exception.

Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Eph 5:2

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Cp Eph 5:25

Writing to the Church at Thessalonia 1:1; 1 Thess 5:9-10

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 18

 

[brightfame52]

The scripture indicates limited atonement by being specific for whom Christ came into the flesh and identified with. Did He take on flesh to identify with all humanity? Or did He take on flesh to identify with a segment of humanity? Scripture says He came and took on the flesh humanity of the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now the seed of Abraham, or Abrahams seed are a chosen people Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham is His friend, and Jesus says Jn 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So His death is limited to His friends the chosen seed of Abraham, in Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.18

 

[brightfame52]

Christs death is limited to them that God has not appointed wrath, but to obtain Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord 1 Thess 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Thats very specific. Now who are the us that are to obtain Salvation ? 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Christ did not die for them appointed to wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[brightfame52]

They that are Called !

The Lord Jesus Christ didn't come nor die to save all mankind, but only for them which are called Heb 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is a called people that Christ came specifically to taste death for, and bring them into their eternal inheritance. In the original its they which are " the called" with the definite article.

These are the same ones called here Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Rom 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

1 Cor 1:9

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Remember those in 1 Peter had been redeemed by the blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-19 and they were going to obtain an inheritance 1 Pet 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by

the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is the same inheritance written of in Heb 9:15 coming to them by means of His death.19

 

[brightfame52]

Christ death wasn't for all mankind, but for those whom He perfected forever who were the sanctified. Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

These are the ones God the Father chose in Christ before the foundation and so they were sanctified in Him Eph 1:4

4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jude 1:1

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called

Furthermore Christs death/offering of Himself for them, sanctified them Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Because His death took away our sins ! Now can this be said of all mankind ? Can this be said of the world of the reprobate which is condemned ? 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Were they ever sanctified by God the Father or by the death of Christ ? I say God forbid, No

 

[jeremiah1five]

So are you saying God sinned in putting to death his Son on the cross?

Acts 4:27-28 (KJV) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Before the high priest goes into the Holy of Holies to present himself on behalf of the people of God there are cleansings and atonement for his sins before he presents himself before a holy God.
This same concept occurs before God created the heaven and the earth and before His dealings as a Holy and Righteous God with sinful man.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [before] the foundation [creation] of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. Rev. 13:8–9.

If indeed God cannot reduplicate Himself nor share or give any aspect of His glory to another, [Adam] which is what I believe Scripture says, [such is the present teaching in the Church that Adam was created holy, righteous, sinless, etc.], that a Holy God created a sin-ful man then this brings into question the Righteousness of God. But this question is answered by a lamb being slain before the creation of the world and this 'cleansing, if you will, allowed God to create a sin-ful man.
Thus, whatever God does in His dealing with creation and man is for lack of a better word, "atoned" by this pre-creation sacrifice.

The implications of this pre-creation act of God is not fully known however since the Scripture reveals it in Revelation 13:8 it belongs to us and our children so that we may do all the words of this law (Deut. 29:29.) Also remember that Christ laid down His life voluntarily and that the plan for the Redemption of sin-ful man and those whose names are in the book of life was a plan entered into by all three Persons of the Trinity.
It was the Father's plan, the Son implemented the plan, and the Holy Spirit today applies the plan to God's elect throughout all TIME, past, present, and future.

 

[brightfame52]

crossnote

How can God judge as guilty, those whom he has not predestined to faith in His Son?"

Because they're guilty sinners

 

[brightfame52]

Jeremiah1five

The implications of this pre-creation act of God is not fully known however since the Scripture reveals it in Revelation 13:8

https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rev 13.8
So do you believe from that scripture that Jesus was literally slain for the sins of His People prior to Creation ?