Limited atonement !

[journeymanisnothing]

So you have more understanding of the OT than the Apostles of Christ ?

No. I phrased that poorly. I meant your post is another example of not understanding what the Apostles said about the OT.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Instead of being saved by what Christ did ?

Calvanists have completely misundertood what Christ did. What Christ did is show mercy to people who abused him.
Calvanists don't understand that Jesus is God and could have had his enemies executed anytime he wanted. Of course, he previously said he would show mercy to the world, so he allowed them to remain alive.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Oh, I definitely understand that Jesus is God.

No I meant do you acknowledge that when Jesus said, "love our enemies as our Father in heaven does", it's because that's what Jesus did? Very simply, Do you understand that if Jesus had gone to Moses' law against those who conspired to murdered him.....those people would have been put to death? Sins worthy of death against God himself on earth no less. Hello???

I also understand that temporal, temporary mercy is not God's mercy.

Yes it is and there are many examples of God showing mercy over and over to people who were later destroyed because they refused to repent.

For mercy to be true mercy, it must be eternal, because everyone will eventually die physically, so death's delay is meaningless, especially if a greater, far more terrible death awaits.

The 2nd death is powerless against believers who live by Christs' mercy, out of his love for humanity. I thought I showed you (or maybe someone else) that his mercy is extended to those who are merciful,

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mt.5:7

because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. Jas.2:13

No, we are saved because God chose individually to save us.

No. God chose to save anyone who live by faith in him.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1Cor.1:21

I'll answer the rest later

 

[rogerg]

No I meant do you acknowledge that when Jesus said, "love our enemies as our Father in heaven does", it's because that's what Jesus did? Very simply, Do you understand that if Jesus had gone to Moses' law against those who conspired to murdered him.....those people would have been put to death? Sins worthy of death against God himself on earth no less. Hello???

No, in the spiritual sense, Jesus did not/does not love everyone, only His elect. The enemies of God are those who will never become saved and remain trusting in their works, not in Christ, for salvation - they are the people of satan and under the law of works. However, since we can't know who all of those are until near the end of time, and since certain people (the elect), will continue to be saved until then, we are to share the gospel with everyone - and that is what Jesus meant about loving our enemies; that is, to love our enemy is to share the gospel.

Yes it is and there are many examples of God showing mercy over and over to people who were later destroyed because they refused to repent.

Oh my! They refuse to repent because they cannot repent: satan has blinded the minds and hearts of natural man. True repentance only comes as a gift from God - it is not of man. Repentance does not save anyone; it is a byproduct of salvation - it is not to salvation.
Did you not read the verses I included regarding repentance?

No. God chose to save anyone who live by faith in him.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1Cor.1:21

True faith comes only as a fruit of the Spirit which accompanies the Holy Spirit's spiritual rebirth of someone. It is impossible for true faith to be self-generated by natural (unsaved) man.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[rogerg]

The 2nd death is powerless against believers who live by Christs' mercy, out of his love for humanity. I thought I showed you (or maybe someone else) that his mercy is extended to those who are merciful,

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mt.5:7

because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

No, not out of His love for humanity, instead, out of His love for His elect. Those who are merciful (the elect) are merciful BECAUSE grace and mercy was first given to them by God, not the reverse. Otherwise, one would/could become saved by their works, but the Bible is abundantly clear that can never happen.

 

[brightfame52]

Calvanists have completely misundertood what Christ did. What Christ did is show mercy to people who abused him.
Calvanists don't understand that Jesus is God and could have had his enemies executed anytime he wanted. Of course, he previously said he would show mercy to the world, so he allowed them to remain alive.

So you deny that people are saved by the effects of what Christ did in His Death for them.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

Oh my! They refuse to repent because they cannot repent: satan has blinded the minds and hearts of natural man. True repentance only comes as a gift from God - it is not of man. Repentance does not save anyone; it is a byproduct of salvation - it is not to salvation.
Did you not read the verses I included regarding repentance?

Correct, man by nature cannot repent towards God in salvific sense, Paul calls our unregenerate heart impenitent Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That word means:

1. admitting no change of mind, unrepented, impenitent

So man in order to repent towards God, He must be given repentance, graced with repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The word repentance here means:

1. a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

This comes by the New Birth, the giving of a New Heart.

If not for this Blessing from Christ, No one would ever repent towards God in a Salvation conversion.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

We cannot leverage salvation by anything
that we may do or not do for it - it just isn't in man's power to do so.

You're saying God left no knowledge of himself, nothing good in humanity after mankind sinned. That simply isn't true.

It is fully and completely a gift to those whom He has chosen for such.

The gift of God to all on earth is our Lord Jesus the Messiah,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn.3:16-17

Trying to find a way around that is to lie about our Father.

The repentance mentioned, is found in the turning from our attempt to work for salvation and instead to trust completely in Christ and the efficacy of His offering for salvation. That repentance is a given by God but only to those whom He has chosen for it, and which accompanies salvation - God changes the heart.

[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Calvanists have distorted the teaching of Paul.
The "goodness of God that leads to repentance" is recognition of our sin against him and our sorrow to repentance because of it. Jesus didn't deserve the way he was treated.
The "goodness of God" in the verse you cuted includes his "forbearance and longsuffering."
Paul is teaching that Jesus was being sinned against.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

You're defeating your own doctrine, because if faith is granted regardless of how the word is preached, then Pauls' words are meaningless.
The truth is, it matters how Jesus presented himself to sinners and he expected his followers to represent him properly. So God through the faithful believer may give sinners a repentant heart.
The belief that no sinner can understand this makes the gospel unnecessary. Makes Christs' sacrifice unnecessary. It's the filthiest heresy ever.

The 'to this man" is Christ. Before being saved, no natural man can have a contrite spirit nor "trembleth" at God's word. That only comes with/from/ salvation. It does not bring salvation.

That's very good roger. You're right. Jesus is "this man." But he's also the speaker,

For all those things hath mine hand made Isa.66:2

Do you understand now? He's our Creator. He came here as an example of hus Father, not as an example of a sinner.

Now please understand roger, that when Jesus is referred to as sin, a sinner, etc., itbecause Paul, Perer, whoever, is saying God was lied about, false witnesses, conspiritors to murder, sinning afainst God.

YIKES!
Gotta go out for awhile.

 

[rogerg]

You're saying God left no knowledge of himself, nothing good in humanity after mankind sinned. That simply isn't true.

God left abundant knowledge about Himself, but the spiritual discernment of that knowledge He gives only to His elect in order for them to perceive and comprehend it, and Him.

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV] 10 As it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[2Ti 1:7 KJV]
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The gift of God to all on earth is our Lord Jesus the Messiah,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn.3:16-17

Trying to find a way around that is to lie about our Father.

Not a lie, perhaps the problem is with your understanding.

Only those born-again are given faith in Him - not everyone is. You didn't read the verse about faith being a fruit of the Spirit through becoming born-again, did you.

Calvanists have distorted the teaching of Paul.
The "goodness of God that leads to repentance" is recognition of our sin against him and our sorrow to repentance because of it. Jesus didn't deserve the way he was treated.
The "goodness of God" in the verse you cuted includes his "forbearance and longsuffering."
Paul is teaching that Jesus was being sinned against.

No, it is not saying that. God leads someone (the elect) to repentance FROM/BY/BECAUSE OF His forbearance and longsuffering. No one can know their sin UNTIL God saves them, a result of which, they are given repentance.

You're defeating your own doctrine, because if faith is granted regardless of how the word is preached, then Pauls' words are meaningless.
The truth is, it matters how Jesus presented himself to sinners and he expected his followers to represent him properly. So God through the faithful believer may give sinners a repentant heart.
The belief that no sinner can understand this makes the gospel unnecessary. Makes Christs' sacrifice unnecessary. It's the filthiest heresy ever.

No, not defeating it, nor is it unnecessary (and it is not my doctrine, but the Bible's). The purpose of preaching is the edification of the saints - the chosen- and only they can/will comprehend it. Its purpose is to inform those whom God had chosen, to give them understanding about the basis of their salvation, which is Christ. It is not to make believers of those whom He had not chosen.

[Eph 4:4-7 KJV]
4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

[Eph 4:11-15 KJV]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 1
5 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

That's very good roger. You're right. Jesus is "this man." But he's also the speaker,

For all those things hath mine hand made Isa.66:2

Do you understand now? He's our Creator. He came here as an example of hus Father, not as an example of a sinner.

Now please understand roger, that when Jesus is referred to as sin, a sinner, etc., itbecause Paul, Perer, whoever, is saying God was lied about, false witnesses, conspiritors to murder, sinning afainst God.

Besides saying that Christ is the Creator, none of that is correct. Christ did serve as an example, but the example was intended to make visible God's plan of salvation for the preaching of it to others. However, His primary mission (as described below) was the saving of those whom the Father had so chosen for salvation, intended only for those the Father gave to the Son. Christ took upon Himself the transgressions of those He came to save, and being made transgressor, was put to death on their behalf, thereby taking them from under the judgment of God. Christ came here to fulfill His role as the eternal Saviour to satisfy God's promise to Abraham regarding Abraham's spiritual seed, which the elect alone are.

[Jhn 6:37, 39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Huh? No! Christ was the one put on the "tree" (the cross), of which that verse is representative.

No it isn't. No one is "cursed" by any method of execution. People are only cursed for committing sin. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone cursed for anything but sinful thoughts or conduct.

rogerg:
Why? because He took upon Himself the sin of those He came to save and thereby became worthy of death.

God doesn't allow that,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

rogerg:
Deu 21:23 is prospective, anticipatory, and symbolic of Christ's crucifixion. The condemnation of natural man is that by his nature, he loves darkness rather than light - that is the condemnation of God against man. You're not even in the ballpark.

The "natural man" is influenced by the flesh nature, which is why you're ignoring Deu.21:22, where it's obvious a man is only cursed for committing sin, outwardly or in his mind,

What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? Eze.18:2

Calvanism says, Jesus was being justly punished by God as a sinner.
Calvanists are using that proverb, even though God swears by himself that believers will no longer use it.

If your belief is actually based upon your post above, I would most definitely suggest that you rethink it.

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Nowhere in this verse is it implied sinners can't hear the gospel and repent.

It is obvious that the verse neither ofsays nor means what you've said - you're trying to subvert it into something else. They were blinded because it was God's will that they remained so.

Blindness to the truth happens over time,. This is logically why we teach truth to our children.

No, it is not. For those Christ came to save, law was abolished by Christ on His cross removing them from its judgment.

[Col 2:14 KJV]
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And as I've pointed out, Jesus is the only man who could have judged the Jews by the law given to Moses without bringing judgment on himself,
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Rom.2:1

Our Savior took the condemnation of the law away by putting the flesh the law works through to death.

[1Co 15:55-56 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

That's right, but please remember by "the law" Paul means the knowledge of good and evil, because gentiles who don't have the law are guilty of sin by conscience.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

My observations give me every indication that Scripture is correct. But I’m not looking to scriptures to prove scripture…

I’m looking at the world around me.

Keep watching as sinners come to God because of hearing the truth of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

No it isn't. No one is "cursed" by any method of execution. People are only cursed for committing sin. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone cursed for anything but sinful thoughts or conduct.

God doesn't allow that,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

The "natural man" is influenced by the flesh nature, which is why you're ignoring Deu.21:22, where it's obvious a man is only cursed for committing sin, outwardly or in his mind,

What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? Eze.18:2

Calvanism says, Jesus was being justly punished by God as a sinner.
Calvanists are using that proverb, even though God swears by himself that believers will no longer use it.

Nowhere in this verse is it implied sinners can't hear the gospel and repent.

Blindness to the truth happens over time,. This is logically why we teach truth to our children.

And as I've pointed out, Jesus is the only man who could have judged the Jews by the law given to Moses without bringing judgment on himself,
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Rom.2:1

Our Savior took the condemnation of the law away by putting the flesh the law works through to death.

That's right, but please remember by "the law" Paul means the knowledge of good and evil, because gentiles who don't have the law are guilty of sin by conscience.

I think your line of reasoning to be completely, unequivocally, wrong, with no middle ground to be found between us, so no sense in either of us continuing to reply further.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I think your line of reasoning to be completely, unequivocally, wrong, with no middle ground to be found between us, so no sense in either of us continuing to reply further.

You're right. The gospel of how the Lamb of God turned his cheek is nonexistent in Calvanism,

I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isa.50:6

It will be crystal clear how God views injustice when he appears as the Lion of Judah.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

So you deny that people are saved by the effects of what Christ did in His Death for them.

I deny that any just judge including God would never punish an innocent man for what any guilty man did.

As I've said to you brightflame52 many times before, realizing that Jesus is the only perfect image of our Father ever to appear on earth makes Calvanism pure heresy.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Jesus is the only perfect image of our Father ever to appear on earth makes Calvanism pure heresy.

LOL ... OK ... I'll bite. What does that mean???
"Pure Heresy" ???? ... does that mean when Reformed doctrine says GOD IS LOVE, that that statement is heresy?
Where is your in depth "statement of faith" so we can compare?

 

[brightfame52]

I deny that any just judge including God would never punish an innocent man for what any guilty man did.

As I've said to you brightflame52 many times before, realizing that Jesus is the only perfect image of our Father ever to appear on earth makes Calvanism pure heresy.

Then you deny the Death of Christ, simple as that, its your unbelief 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

"Pure Heresy" ???? ... does that mean when Reformed doctrine says GOD IS LOVE, that that statement is heresy?

It does when their erronious view of Gods' love shows him torturing and killing an innocent man in violation of his law.

Where is your in depth "statement of faith" so we can compare?

It's in the scriptures I've cited in this thread, which you've ignored.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Then you deny the Death of Christ, simple as that, its your unbelief 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Peter is comparing believers suffering to how Christ suffered,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 1Pet.3:17

Because Jesus suffered that way, not the way you imagine.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It does when their erronious view of Gods' love shows him torturing and killing an innocent man in violation of his law.

Ah, maybe you could search the Reform Statement of Faith (https://1689londonbaptistconfession.com/ ) and find the statement that says they believe God tortures and kills innocent men in violation of His law. Give me a quote, not a fabrication.
My guess is this is just a fantasy of yours. The GOD PUNISHES INNOCENT MEN fantasy of Reformed Theology (never heard of it)

 

[brightfame52]

Peter is comparing believers suffering to how Christ suffered,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 1Pet.3:17

Because Jesus suffered that way, not the way you imagine.

You just dont get it