Limited atonement !

[brightfame52]

I don't believe it is error. The knowledge of good and evil is more clearly defined by the law for the purpose of humbling people.
The law humbles when i's directed at self.

I believe although all people are sinners, the vast majority of humanity still tries to do good and that's because they know good and evil (not just evil) which is the influence of the Spirit of our God...for the purpose of humility.

Calvanism is wrong from the start.

You dont believe its error but I do.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You dont believe its error but I do.

I know, but for decades I thought I was hearing the truth also. It's much better to see our Father as a loving father.

 

[rogerg]

Error

brightfame52, I think the crux of Journeyman's error is because he cannot comprehend that Christ, not man, is the Saviour, and as Saviour, gives salvation as a completely free gift without preconditions to those He has chosen for it. He does so and can do so because he is a merciful, gracious, and all-powerful God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

brightfame52, I think the crux of Journeyman's error is because he cannot comprehend that Christ, not man, is the Saviour, and as Saviour, gives salvation as a completely free gift without preconditions to those He has chosen for it. He does so and can do so because he is a merciful, gracious, and all-powerful God.

Actually rogerg,
I believe the way I do because Jesus is our Savior and God.
I spent so many years in a Protestant based church never being told the truth about Gods' sacrifice. I heard the heresy that God poured his wrath out on his innocent Son in place of sinners, but I never heard about how mankind poured their wrath out on God and how God hanging from a cross because of liars, bore those sins being committed against him without bringing those sinners into judgment.
The error is mistaking the mercy of God.

 

[rogerg]

Actually rogerg,
I believe the way I do because Jesus is our Savior and God.
I spent so many years in a Protestant based church never being told the truth about Gods' sacrifice. I heard the heresy that God poured his wrath out on his innocent Son in place of sinners, but I never heard about how mankind poured their wrath out on God and how God hanging from a cross because of liars, bore those sins being committed against him without bringing those sinners into judgment.
The error is mistaking the mercy of God.

What do you think these verses are saying? They say that Christ was crucified expressly because it was God's will
that He be - that was why Christ was sent. Christ's sacrifice was to take those whom He had chosen for
salvation from under law because where there is no law, there is no sin nor judgment. How do you think someone becomes saved?

[Gal 3:13 KJV]
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

[1Co 2:7-8 KJV]
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[Jhn 12:27 KJV]
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

 

[brightfame52]

What do you think these verses are saying? They say that Christ was crucified expressly because it was God's will
that He be - that was why Christ was sent. Christ's sacrifice was to take those whom He had chosen for
salvation from under law because where there is no law, there is no sin nor judgment. How do you think someone becomes saved?

[Gal 3:13 KJV]
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

[1Co 2:7-8 KJV]
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[Jhn 12:27 KJV]
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

The poster keeps talking about what men did to Christ, not understanding that all that what they did was according to Gods will, they were only doing what God had determined they do Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 4:25-28
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Christ was made to endure all that suffering unto death for the redemption of Gods Elect.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What do you think these verses are saying? They say that Christ was crucified expressly because it was God's will

Gods' will for his Son to show mercy toward sinners he could have destroyed,

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa78:38

Of course you first need to understand that Jesus is God.

that He be - that was why Christ was sent. Christ's sacrifice was to take those whom He had chosen for salvation from under law because where there is no law, there is no sin nor judgment. How do you think someone becomes saved?

We are saved by asking God to forgive us. Jesus preached repentance,

Repent...Mt.4:17

...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47

...to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

What "word" do you think sinners should tremble at?

[Gal 3:13 KJV]
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Good. Now go to Deu.21:23 which Paul is citing and read the verse before it,
if a man have committed a sin worthy of death and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree Deu.21:22
Nobody was cursed by God for being hanged on a tree. Peolle were cursed by God for committing sin,
Cursed be the man...Deu.27:15-26
So what Paul really means is that Jesus was condemned by false witnesses. Under the law, a false witness in a death penalty case is subject to the same sentence,
if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother, then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. Deu.19:18-19

[1Co 2:7-8 KJV]
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[Jhn 12:27 KJV]

Yes. Their pride blinded them to the truth.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

So we know God in human flesh was troubled in his soul. It also says the devil would come to tempt him at an opportune time.
This is the right way to understand how Jesus "...abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained inordinances..."Eph.2:15

Had Jesus brought the law against those violating it, they would have executed.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The poster keeps talking about what men did to Christ, not understanding that all that what they did was according to Gods will, they were only doing what God had determined they do Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 4:25-28
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Christ was made to endure all that suffering unto death for the redemption of Gods Elect.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The poster keeps talking about what men did to Christ, not understanding that all that what they did was according to Gods will, they were only doing what God had determined they do Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 4:25-28
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Christ was made to endure all that suffering unto death for the redemption of Gods Elect.

Another example of how the Apostles quoted the OT, but not understanding what the OT says.

 

[brightfame52]

Another example of how the Apostles quoted the OT, but not understanding what the OT says.

So you have more understanding of the OT than the Apostles of Christ ?

 

[brightfame52]

journeyman

We are saved by asking God to forgive us.

Instead of being saved by what Christ did ?

 

[rogerg]

Gods' will for his Son to show mercy toward sinners he could have destroyed,

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa78:38

Of course you first need to understand that Jesus is God.

Oh, I definitely understand that Jesus is God. I also understand that temporal, temporary mercy is not God's mercy. For mercy to be true mercy, it must be eternal, because everyone will eventually die physically, so death's
delay is meaningless, especially if a greater, far more terrible death awaits.

We are saved by asking God to forgive us. Jesus preached repentance,

Repent...Mt.4:17

...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47

...to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

What "word" do you think sinners should tremble at?

No, we are saved because God chose individually to save us. We cannot leverage salvation by anything
that we may do or not do for it - it just isn't in man's power to do so. It is fully and completely a gift to those whom He has chosen for such.
The repentance mentioned, is found in the turning from our attempt to work for salvation and instead to trust completely in Christ and the efficacy of His offering for salvation. That repentance is a given by God but only to those whom He has chosen for it, and which accompanies salvation - God changes the heart.

[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

The 'to this man" is Christ. Before being saved, no natural man can have a contrite spirit nor "trembleth" at God's word. That only comes with/from/ salvation. It does not bring salvation.

Good. Now go to Deu.21:23 which Paul is citing and read the verse before it,
if a man have committed a sin worthy of death and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree Deu.21:22
Nobody was cursed by God for being hanged on a tree. Peolle were cursed by God for committing sin,
Cursed be the man...Deu.27:15-26
So what Paul really means is that Jesus was condemned by false witnesses. Under the law, a false witness in a death penalty case is subject to the same sentence,
if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother, then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. Deu.19:18-19

Huh? No! Christ was the one put on the "tree" (the cross), of which that verse is representative. Why? because He took upon Himself the sin of those He came to save and thereby became worthy of death. Deu 21:23 is prospective, anticipatory, and symbolic of Christ's crucifixion. The condemnation of natural man is that by his nature, he loves darkness rather than light - that is the condemnation of God against man. You're not even in the ballpark.
If your belief is actually based upon your post above, I would most definitely suggest that you rethink it.

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Yes. Their pride blinded them to the truth.

It is obvious that the verse neither says nor means what you've said - you're trying to subvert it into something else. They were blinded because it was God's will that they remained so.

So we know God in human flesh was troubled in his soul. It also says the devil would come to tempt him at an opportune time.
This is the right way to understand how Jesus "...abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained inordinances..."Eph.2:15

Had Jesus brought the law against those violating it, they would have executed.

No, it is not. For those Christ came to save, law was abolished by Christ on His cross removing them from
its judgment.

[Col 2:14 KJV]
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

[1Co 15:55-56 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I do think the Bible indicates foreknowledge and divine involvement in salvation from beginning to end. I do not identify as reformed or Calvinist. Part of the reason…?

Outside evidence. I can hardly claim to put sola scriptura into action when part of my reasoning is based on real life experience and observations.

 

[rogerg]

Outside evidence. I can hardly claim to put sola scriptura into action when part of my reasoning is based on real life experience and observations.

If someone has become saved, the "real life experience and observations" as you say- at least insofar as they are consistent with gospel - came/come as a result of salvation, though that may not always be obvious.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Exactly…,

But I’m looking outside scripture…

 

[rogerg]

Exactly…,

But I’m looking outside scripture…

sorry, not sure I understand that.

 

[Christ_empowered]

My observations give me every indication that Scripture is correct. But I’m not looking to scriptures to prove scripture…

I’m looking at the world around me.

 

[rogerg]

My observations give me every indication that Scripture is correct. But I’m not looking to scriptures to prove scripture…

I’m looking at the world around me.

Respectfully, I think it should be in the reverse.
I'm not sure what specific reservations you may have against trusting it fully, however, it does corroborate itself with the following verses.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Yes. Scripture is correct and true. Observations and experiences easily confirm this for me…

 

[rogerg]

Yes. Scripture is correct and true. Observations and experiences easily confirm this for me…

Okay, I thought you were saying that you didn't fully and completely trust it.