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Limited Atonement - TULIP

Is that the only meaning in the Bible? I think if you study it, you will find that it is not.

If a person is not just, they are not righteous; right with God.

Even if a person was just in the past, doesn’t mean they are always just, because people fall away or become lost through sin or transgression and need to repent and return to God.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

While the sheep was numbered among the hundred, before he became lost he was just, as the 99 who did not wander away and become lost.

Once the lost sheep repented and returned to the Lord he was again, in right standing with Him.


Notice while the sheep was lost, he was considered a sinner; someone who is separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
 
If a person is not just, they are not righteous; right with God.

Even if a person was just in the past, doesn’t mean they are always just, because people fall away or become lost through sin or transgression and need to repent and return to God.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

While the sheep was numbered among the hundred, before he became lost he was just, as the 99 who did not wander away and become lost.

Once the lost sheep repented and returned to the Lord he was again, in right standing with Him.


Notice while the sheep was lost, he was considered a sinner; someone who is separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
So, here is the issue. You're pitting James against Paul. The NT is replete with statements that we are not declared righteous by our works. Adding a single work to justification is to put one outside of Christ by making his atoning work insufficient.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
Gen 15:2 But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

First, the context in which James states that Abraham was "justified by works" is "faith by itself, it it does not have works, is dead," and "I will show you my faith by my works." Second, note that James also quotes the OT where it says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness," which was long before "he offered his son Isaac on the altar." His willingness to offer Isaac on the altar was evidence of the faith and subsequent righteousness counted to him from years earlier, around 25 years prior even to Isaac's conception.

Now, notice where Paul uses the very same passage about Abraham, but unequivocally states that Abraham was not justified by works:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
...
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
...
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
...
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)

There can be no work, ever, that is a part of the reason that we are declared righteous, otherwise it isn't a free gift and it isn't by faith. So, using the very same passage as James, Paul appears to be contradicting him. However, the context of James shows us that he is talking about works that are evidence of one's faith--"I will show you my faith by my works"--of having been declared righteous, not the basis of one's justification. That is, works show (justify before others) that one already has saving faith. No one has ever been declared righteous by doing works.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

That is the consistent message throughout the NT--justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It's a work of God from start to finish and good works are evidence of already having been justified.
 
So far the idea of Limited Atonement has yet to be identified in scripture.



Yet it’s what Jesus and His Apostles plainly taught as I have written.

The condition for salvation is to believe.

There are two distinct points being made here.

  1. For a person to become saved they must believe.
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

  • lest they should believe and be saved.
Believe = saved


2. For a person to remain saved they must continue to believe.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away
Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Temporary believing = Temporary Salvation


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

  • by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word

If we no longer believe, our believing that we did to get saved was done in vain.
Here is limited atonement:
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.
 
So, here is the issue. You're pitting James against Paul.

No sir that’s not true at all.

You can go back and check my posts. I say now and have always said, both Paul and James teach the same principle of faith.

It’s called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21

The “work” or “action” Abraham did was to obey the word from God (the word by which he received faith) to sacrifice his son Isaac on the altar.



JLB
 
Here is limited atonement:
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

Limited Atonement was never mentioned in anything you posted.

The way the blood of Jesus atones or takes away sin is when a person believes and therefore obeys the command to repent;
To confess their sin.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7-9


My question to you comes from the context of 1 John 1:7-9 and says this -


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Where is the idea of Limited Atonement in this scripture?

  • He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

His blood atones for the unsaved as well as our sins; the sins of those are are saved, as 1 John 1:9 says.
 
No sir that’s not true at all.

You can go back and check my posts. I say now and have always said, both Paul and James teach the same principle of faith.
It certainly is true and I used your post to show you how. You're conflating two different meanings of "justification" and so teach that we are declared righteous by our works, which not only makes James contradict Paul, it actually makes you contradict both since both really agree. Both Paul and James are using two different meanings of justification. Until you get that sorted out, you'll continually teach the false gospel of salvation by works.

It’s called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21

The “work” or “action” Abraham did was to obey the word from God (the word by which he received faith) to sacrifice his son Isaac on the altar.
I addressed this. With all due respect, you don't seem to understand how context works, even when it is directly shown to you. Did you even bother to read past the first sentence of my post?
 
It certainly is true and I used your post to show you how. You're conflating two different meanings of "justification" and so teach that we are declared righteous by our works, which not only makes James contradict Paul,

I have repeatedly said the the “work” by which Abraham was justified was his obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

The same obedience of faith that Paul teaches throughout the entire book of Romans.

By faith means God spoke to a person and the received faith, and they obeyed.

Noah -

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:6

Noah heard God by which he received faith and obeyed Him and built the ark.

He became the heir of the righteousness (justification) which is according to faith.
 
I have repeatedly said the the “work” by which Abraham was justified was his obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.
Yes, but again, what meaning of "justified" are you using? It simply cannot mean that Abraham was declared righteous with that obedience. That is the key issue that you don't seem to be picking up on. The meanings of justification are central to all discussions of it.
 
Yes, but again, what meaning of "justified" are you using? It simply cannot mean that Abraham was declared righteous with that obedience. That is the key issue that you don't seem to be picking up on. The meanings of justification are central to all discussions of it.

That very well may be your opinion.

I just know that the scripture plainly says Abraham was justified by works…

The work he did was to obey God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

If you want to insert some other meaning for justified other than righteous then that’s on you.

The word justify here is the same Greek word as used in Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Galatians 3:8
 
To be justified by God is to be declared to be righteous;
right with God. In righteousness standing with God.
How do you understand these verses:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit

If a Christian has become a new creation or a good tree that cannot bear bad fruit, how can he fall away?
 
That very well may be your opinion.
It's not just my opinion. It makes sense of the contexts and doesn't pit Paul against either Jesus or James or James against Jesus.

I just know that the scripture plainly says Abraham was justified by works…

The work he did was to obey God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
You're fallaciously begging the question by assuming a certain meaning of "justified." That's the problem with a lack of study and simply preferring one's own interpretation.

If you want to insert some other meaning for justified other than righteous then that’s on you.
No, it's biblical. Until you realize that, you'll continue to teach the false gospel of being declared righteous by works. That puts you outside of Christ since you're saying his work on the cross wasn't sufficient.

The word justify here is the same Greek word as used in Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Galatians 3:8
Of course it is, but that is neither here nor there. It's also the same word here:

Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.” (ESV)

Luk 10:29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” (ESV)

Those are in the same sense that James is using it. How Paul uses it, is seen here:

Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (ESV)

Notice that it wasn't based on a work, but in humility he recognize his sin and asked God for forgiveness.
 
The work of obedience.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Was Abraham justified because he did some “good works” or was he justified because he obeyed the Lord to offer his son Isaac on the altar?
Isn't this just semantics? Abraham was justified by faith, but as I said, true obedience is proven and validated by work. The binding of Isaac was God's test of his faith, and he passed.
 
It's not just my opinion. It makes sense of the contexts and doesn't pit Paul against either Jesus or James or James against Jesus.

How many times are you going to say that. I haven’t ever pitted Jesus or Paul or James against each other but am showing how they taught the same principle.

I plainly quoted from Paul and James and pointed out how they say the same things.

You're fallaciously begging the question by assuming a certain meaning of "justified." That's the problem with a lack of study and simply preferring one's own interpretation.

That’s a blatant misrepresentation of me.

Your lack of study is clear. You don’t study scripture.

You study Calvinism. That’s what stand out about your posts.

I have given scripture from Paul and James and have shown that they both taught the principle of the obedience of faith.

I have shown that they both same word justified was used about Abraham from James and Paul.


All you have done is deny what the scriptures teach, and you have failed to address the actual scriptures, while just calling names and labeling me with phony labels.


Typical Calvinist response. No real content. Just attacking the poster.
 
Isn't this just semantics? Abraham was justified by faith, but as I said, true obedience is proven and validated by work. The binding of Isaac was God's test of his faith, and he passed.

I agree for the most part.

The principle of faith requires the corresponding act of obedience, otherwise faith is dead.

Just like a body without a spirit is dead.
 
How many times are you going to say that. I haven’t ever pitted Jesus or Paul or James against each other but am showing how they taught the same principle.

I plainly quoted from Paul and James and pointed out how they say the same things.



That’s a blatant misrepresentation of me.

Your lack of study is clear. You don’t study scripture.

You study Calvinism. That’s what stand out about your posts.

I have given scripture from Paul and James and have shown that they both taught the principle of the obedience of faith.

I have shown that they both same word justified was used about Abraham from James and Paul.


All you have done is deny what the scriptures teach, and you have failed to address the actual scriptures, while just calling names and labeling me with phony labels.


Typical Calvinist response. No real content. Just attacking the poster.
Do you know that Free is not a Calvinist?
 
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (ESV)

Yes justified. Right with God.

Thanks for making my point.

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God; when he offered his son Isaac on the altar.
 
No, it's biblical. Until you realize that, you'll continue to teach the false gospel of being declared righteous by works. That puts you outside of Christ since you're saying his work on the cross wasn't sufficient.

We are declared righteous by obedience, not the works of the law not works that earn not good works, but the obedience of faith.

The Gospel command REPENT must be obeyed for salvation.

Surely you understand that.

The way a person obeys the Gospel is to repent.

The way a person repents is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

  • and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That’s the true gospel.



JLB
 
How many times are you going to say that. I haven’t ever pitted Jesus or Paul or James against each other but am showing how they taught the same principle.

I plainly quoted from Paul and James and pointed out how they say the same things.
Where? All I can see is where you have them saying different things. Paul not only never teaches justification (being declared righteous) by works, he directly and strongly opposes such a notion, yet you continually post from James to show justification (being declared righteous) by works.

That’s a blatant misrepresentation of me.
That you’re fallacious begging the question on what James is saying is clear, because you’re assuming an incorrect definition of “justified.”

You study Calvinism. That’s what stand out about your posts.
Actually, I don’t. But nice try.

I have given scripture from Paul and James and have shown that they both taught the principle of the obedience of faith.

I have shown that they both same word justified was used about Abraham from James and Paul.
And, again, yes, it’s the same word but they both use different meanings. You have pitted them against each other. Paul never, ever teaches that we are declared righteous by our works and neither does James. If that is your conclusion, then you are correct.

All you have done is deny what the scriptures teach, and you have failed to address the actual scriptures, while just calling names and labeling me with phony labels.
That is a blatant misrepresentation of what I have stated. Anyone can see that I directly addressed the Scriptures, just as much as you, and haven’t called anyone names or labeled you with phony labels. I have simply denied what you think the scriptures teach, not what they actually teach.

Typical Calvinist response. No real content. Just attacking the poster.
Except that I’m not a Calvinist. Speaking of labels… Once in a while you might want to try not doing what you claim others are doing.
 
Yes justified. Right with God.

Thanks for making my point.

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God; when he offered his son Isaac on the altar.
No. Now you’re pitting James against Jesus.
 
We are declared righteous by obedience, not the works of the law not works that earn not good works, but the obedience of faith.

The Gospel command REPENT must be obeyed for salvation.

Surely you understand that.

The way a person obeys the Gospel is to repent.

The way a person repents is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

  • and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That’s the true gospel.
There it is: “We are declared righteous by obedience,” the false gospel. Nowhere does Jesus, Paul, or James teach that. This is the problem when you fail to properly study what words mean and become so stubborn that you won’t accept correction. That is an absolutely false gospel that you teach. Paul says anyone who teaches that is to be considered accursed.
 
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