Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that can only be done once for justification unto salvation. If one were to lose their salvation that's it, it's over with and they would remain apostate.

That is what the Bible plainly says. The question I have is at what point does unconfessed, unrepentant sin result in a removal of one's justification before the Father. I know it probably isn't instant, lol. But the Bible does plainly warn us not to fall back into unbelief in order to not lose that which faith in Christ secures.

However, it is true that a repentant heart will respond to the Lord producing good works in them where they didn't have good works in that area before.

So, are you of the opinion that all believers will respond to the warnings without exception, the warnings themselves being how God secures salvation for believers? I used to explain the warnings that way. But it's hard for me to now believe the threats of losing that which faiths secures by not believing anymore are only theoretical and not actually possible to not heed. The language and sternness of the warnings simply do not support that. Not to mention that we see Jesus talking about people believing and then not believing/ people being forgiven then not forgiven in the kingdom of God.

The more one knows the Lord loves them the more they are free to love others as themselves. If one forgets this and acts without love, thus stumbling, they can expect the Holy Spirit to discipline their arrogant heart.

True. You can count on it, IMO. The question is, will every and all Christians respond to the correction? I'm thinking, 'no', now.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes!

But if you show me where in the Bible it says you can be saved without the 'merit' of believing/ trusting in the blood of Christ you will win me over to your side.



Oh, don't misunderstand. Believing is only as good as that which is being believed in. I understand that completely. But that hardly removes the requirement to believe in order to secure the greatness and surety of what is being believed for.

But anyway, can't you see that it is entirely wrong to tell people you can stop having faith in Christ and still have that which faith secures because salvation is not of works? Having faith is simply NOT included in the works that can not justify. But, please, if I have missed the scriptural teaching that says that it is, show me and I will repent immediately.

So if believing is nonmeritorious and then becomes meritorious at some point in the believers life, you will win me over to your side.

 

[Deborah13]

That is what the Bible plainly says. The question I have is at what point does unconfessed, unrepentant sin result in a removal of one's justification before the Father. I know it probably isn't instant, lol. But the Bible does plainly warn us not to fall back into unbelief in order to not lose that which faith in Christ secures.[

I certainly can't answer that question either. I don't see an example of that happening in the Bible, not even in the OT.
I think the warnings are given for many reasons and they are not all simply for our individual benefit. We harm others and we are not doing the job of leading people to the Lord, unless of coarse we are a hypocrite and there are a few of those too. When we sin we do not necessary fall back into unbelief, we do see examples of this happening in the Bible. Peter was not in unbelief when he denied the Lord, he was in fear for his life. When David sinned he wasn't in unbelief either. We know David did not doubt his salvation because he said he knew he would go to his son.
You know the saying, "God isn't finished with me yet." That's what we see in both of them.
That is why I don't believe we can judge others by what we see, even when they take one step forward and two steps back. Sometimes God may even turn them over to satan's evil to save their soul.
So I don't even know what apostasy looks like. Just it's not denying the Lord out of fear, of that I am sure of.

So, are you of the opinion that all believers will respond to the warnings without exception, the warnings themselves being how God secures salvation for believers? I used to explain the warnings that way. But it's hard for me to now believe the threats of losing that which faiths secures by not believing anymore are only theoretical and not actually possible to not heed. The language and sternness of the warnings simply do not support that. Not to mention that we see Jesus talking about people believing and then not believing/ people being forgiven then not forgiven in the kingdom of God.

No, I think sometimes it takes much more than warnings. Look in the OT, God didn't make the Israelites go into captivity to punish them, He said He did it make them turn back to Him. God is amazingly merciful even in His wrath.
I know that sometimes God steps in and takes over the situation, puts His foot down, and says enough is enough you will hear Me. What you do think David went through when his baby son was dying and he knew it was his fault? God knows how to get our attention.
When I look at others I remember the scripture that says, He will not break a bruised reed or snuff out a smoking flax.
I have a hard time with the parables you speak of because I know He was talking to the Jews who believed they were just automatically saved because of their birth, so maybe many of the parables were maybe directed at the problems He saw because of that belief.

True. You can count on it, IMO. The question is, will every and all Christians respond to the correction? I'm thinking, 'no', now.

I just don't know for sure. I see scriptures both ways. But I do know that God is a perfect Father and Jesus is a perfect mediator we couldn't be in better hands.

 

[gr8grace3]

At what point does a believer lose salvation? Never, and the bible tells us that. That is why a "lose salvation" believer will ALWAYS have a doubt and question "at the point" and about "when" a believer "loses" salvation. The bible would be VERY clear in words and definition to His children if He would ever forsake us. It would Be WITHOUT question!

 

[Deborah13]

At what point does a believer lose salvation? Never, and the bible tells us that. That is why a "lose salvation" believer will ALWAYS have a doubt and question "at the point" and about "when" a believer "loses" salvation. The bible would be VERY clear in words and definition to His children if He would ever forsake us. It would Be WITHOUT question!

I believe that if one has truly been saved that all our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future. I believe the only reason a person will not be saved is because they don't receive the Savior and for deliberately and willfully rejecting the Savior, if that is even possible. There are a couple of scriptures that seem to say that it is possible although I don't see any clear example of it in scripture.

 

[Gary]

At what point does an individual become a child of God?

When is an individual considered saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

At what point does an individual become a child of God?

When is an individual considered saved?

When he is forgiven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

At what point does a believer lose salvation?

Since the justification necessary to be saved in the judgment occurs when one's sins are forgiven, salvation ends when you forfeit your justification through the forgiveness of sins and the promise of salvation through your own indifference or contempt for the kindness God has shown you.

Never, and the bible tells us that.

You show me where forgiveness can never be rescinded in the kingdom, and I will show you under what conditions Jesus said it can, and will be rescinded in the kingdom of God. Deal?

That is why a "lose salvation" believer will ALWAYS have a doubt and question "at the point" and about "when" a believer "loses" salvation.

No, no, no. You don't understand. What is in doubt is the amount of long suffering the Lord will afford the person who shows indifference or contempt for the forgiveness they have received, not that, ultimately, you can not treat the Lord's grace with careless indifference or contempt and wonder if you will still be rescued by that grace on the Day of Wrath.

The bible would be VERY clear in words and definition to His children if He would ever forsake us. It would Be WITHOUT question!

The problem is we forsake him. We leave him through our indifference or contempt for the riches of his kindness and remove ourselves from that which forgiveness secures for a person, the salvation of our souls. A forgiveness and salvation that can only be secured through faith and trust in that forgiveness. Stop trusting in the provision God has provided for your forgiveness and you lose that which trusting in God's forgiveness secures.

"12 If we (Christians--see context) endure, we (Christians) will also reign with Him; If we (Christians) deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12 NAS)

You see, we do the denying first.

This denying of us by God when we first deny him is the 'spewing out' that Christ said he will do to, for example, unrepentant lukewarm believers who have first denied him through their indifferent, lukewarm works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So if believing is nonmeritorious and then becomes meritorious at some point in the believers life, you will win me over to your side.

Well if I was saying that I guess you'd have a point, lol.

What I'm saying is the 'work' of believing is how we access the forgiveness of sins, and the continued 'work' of believing is how we will continue to access the forgiveness of sins necessary to enter the kingdom of God.

Do you still believe that 'believing' is one of the works that Paul said can not justify? I see him CONTRASTING believing with the works of the law that can not justify. Surely you do too. Honestly, why has the church decided the very thing God has plainly told us to 'do' in order to be justified is actually a damnable work that can not justify if you say what the Bibles says, that you must 'do' that 'work' in order to be justified? Come on people. We're not stupid, are we? Why have we let ourselves be fooled by this ridiculous and unBiblical teaching? It's time for another reformation!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I certainly can't answer that question either. I don't see an example of that happening in the Bible, not even in the OT.
I think the warnings are given for many reasons and they are not all simply for our individual benefit. We harm others and we are not doing the job of leading people to the Lord, unless of coarse we are a hypocrite and there are a few of those too. When we sin we do not necessary fall back into unbelief, we do see examples of this happening in the Bible. Peter was not in unbelief when he denied the Lord, he was in fear for his life. When David sinned he wasn't in unbelief either. We know David did not doubt his salvation because he said he knew he would go to his son.
You know the saying, "God isn't finished with me yet." That's what we see in both of them.
That is why I don't believe we can judge others by what we see, even when they take one step forward and two steps back. Sometimes God may even turn them over to satan's evil to save their soul.
So I don't even know what apostasy looks like. Just it's not denying the Lord out of fear, of that I am sure of.



No, I think sometimes it takes much more than warnings. Look in the OT, God didn't make the Israelites go into captivity to punish them, He said He did it make them turn back to Him. God is amazingly merciful even in His wrath.
I know that sometimes God steps in and takes over the situation, puts His foot down, and says enough is enough you will hear Me. What you do think David went through when his baby son was dying and he knew it was his fault? God knows how to get our attention.
When I look at others I remember the scripture that says, He will not break a bruised reed or snuff out a smoking flax.
I have a hard time with the parables you speak of because I know He was talking to the Jews who believed they were just automatically saved because of their birth, so maybe many of the parables were maybe directed at the problems He saw because of that belief.



I just don't know for sure. I see scriptures both ways. But I do know that God is a perfect Father and Jesus is a perfect mediator we couldn't be in better hands.

Thanks for responding to my posts, but I'll have to visit this tomorrow. Time to put my Sponge Bob pajamas on and hit the sack. (I bet you think I'm kidding about the Sponge Bob pajamas, right? )

 

[DarkWalker]

If a person can give up salvation at any point then has he got saved in the first place?

One person was arguing with me about this but is this logic possible?

I have not read through every post in this thread, as I do not have the time or inclination. However, I have struggled with whether or not a person can lose or voluntarily forsake their salvation. This is a question which deals with the nearly taboo issue of predestination. Of course, there are many opinions on this subject, so I'll submit mine and then bow out, as I am not looking for a debate. If anyone can gain anything from what I say, fantastic. Otherwise, please carry on with your regularly unscheduled lives.

We "accept Christ" based on the knowledge that we need a Savior. That is knowledge we lack at one point in our lives, gain in another, and continue to acknowledge for the remainder of our lives. This knowledge is not strictly intellectual, but what one might call "heart knowledge." That is, we know it in our soul. Romans 8 declares that our salvation is predestined, because God foreknew us (knew us before we were in existence). Those He foreknew, according to Romans 8:29, He predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. That is, not that we have two eyes, a nose, a mouth, and so on, but that we are Christlike in our character. Furthermore, those who are predestined are also called, justified, and glorified.

Additionally, Ephesians 1 talks about our being predestined for His inheritance (that is, Heaven). Some who are predestined will wander away, struggling with the pull of this world, and yet they will be saved, because they are legitimately predestined, and have a legitimate belief in Christ; they simply struggle to act on that belief for one reason or another. Others will claim Christ, and yet will simply go through the motions, so that they will say "Lord, Lord," and never enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The bottom line is, we do not know who is predestined and who is not, but I say all of this to come to my final point:

Because we were foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified before we came into existence, I have arrived at the conclusion that we cannot change this simply by pulling away or saying, "I don't want this anymore." I have said those words many times, and yet I still feel the pull, conviction, and comfort of the Holy Spirit in my life. I know without a doubt I am saved, whether I wish to be at a given moment or not. In our salvation, it is my belief we do not have free will, but in all other matters, we do. What we do is our choice, which is why we are accountable to God for our sins, and why our good deeds for His glory are legitimate and worthy to be placed at His feet in the End of Days.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. -- John 10:28-29

 

[Gregg]

The question I have is at what point does unconfessed, unrepentant sin result in a removal of one's justification before the Father. I know it probably isn't instant, lol. But the Bible does plainly warn us not to fall back into unbelief in order to not lose that which faith in Christ secures.

Justification is not initiated by the believer, or removed by God. When one believes and is saved, he is then justified . . . period; with no qualifications in and of himself. Justification is not earned by any merit or work of man. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). We are redeemed by Christ once.

 

[Gregg]

What I'm saying is the 'work' of believing is how we access the forgiveness of sins, and the continued 'work' of believing is how we will continue to access the forgiveness of sins necessary to enter the kingdom of God.

Pardon my entering this conversation, but I must say . . . believing is not a work of man.

A Christian can not 'access' forgiveness, rather he receives forgiveness; having already been forgiven from sin which separated him from God. A Christian resides permanently in the kingdom of God, as he was placed there in Christ. He can not enter, then leave, enter the kingdom again, then leave God's kingdom again.

Christ died once, and because we died with Him and are now in Him, we shall not die again.

 

[Gary]

Justification is not initiated by the believer, or removed by God. When one believes and is saved, he is then justified . . . period; with no qualifications in and of himself. Justification is not earned by any merit or work of man. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). We are redeemed by Christ once.

Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


James 1
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

.

 

[eddif]

This thread is going faster than rednecks can get their mules to go.

John the Baptist came to prepare the way of The Lord . John plainly said ( believe on the one who comes after me). Repentance is a step toward eternity IMHO. Repentance may be based some of our works (?). Repentance somewhat reminds me of the law, but the inclusion of belief in Jesus pushes on to a kingdom message.

Hebrews 6:6
Returning to repentance is impossible after moving on to the dependence on what Jesus accomplished. My works are done when I repent.

Galatians 2:20
Shows (IMHO) that I do not depend on my works once I trust in Jesus Christ. I can not return to works of the Law or Repentance (and this is the limit of my understanding).

Some seem to think repentance is more than it is. I agree that John needed the Holy Spirit to present Repentance, but the filling of the Holy Spirit is another stage. IMHO

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is a question which deals with the nearly taboo issue of predestination.

Yup.

I think predetermined believing was borne out of this misunderstanding of Paul's grace/law teaching. Or vice versa. But they are definitely linked. No question about it.

Of course, there are many opinions on this subject, so I'll submit mine and then bow out, as I am not looking for a debate.

Party pooper.

We "accept Christ" based on the knowledge that we need a Savior. That is knowledge we lack at one point in our lives, gain in another, and continue to acknowledge for the remainder of our lives. This knowledge is not strictly intellectual, but what one might call "heart knowledge." That is, we know it in our soul.

You are describing the free gift of faith--the supernatural ability to know something is true that you can not see, and which you can not know is really true on your own. Faith is given to us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, who speaks into the hearts of men, testifying to the truth about Jesus (1 John 5:9-10 NAS). It is through this gift of faith, given to us through the voice and testimony of the Holy Spirit, that we then place our trust in that which God has revealed to us to be true.

Romans 8 declares that our salvation is predestined, because God foreknew us (knew us before we were in existence). Those He foreknew, according to Romans 8:29, He predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. That is, not that we have two eyes, a nose, a mouth, and so on, but that we are Christlike in our character. Furthermore, those who are predestined are also called, justified, and glorified.

Based on what you say later in your post I think you are saying that those who believe were predetermined ahead of time by God to be believers. But actually, this is what Paul is saying:

Those whom God knows ahead of time will believe the gospel (because he is all-knowing) will follow in a predetermined plan and purpose established by God ahead of time, which is to conform a nation of people into the image of Christ. The people are not predetermined to believe. His purpose for which people believe and are saved is what is what is predetermined, that plan being to "to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds" (Titus 2:14 NAS).

Additionally, Ephesians 1 talks about our being predestined for His inheritance (that is, Heaven).

Just as the plan and purpose for those who will believe to be conformed to the image of Christ is predetermined, so is placing those who believe in God's plan and purpose into a predetermined kingdom. The plan for a nation and kingdom of people who belong to him and serve him is what is predetermined, not the people who will inherit and inhabit that kingdom through their faith, even though God, because he is all-knowing, knew before the foundations of the earth were laid who would believe and inherit the kingdom.

Some who are predestined will wander away, struggling with the pull of this world, and yet they will be saved, because they are legitimately predestined, and have a legitimate belief in Christ; they simply struggle to act on that belief for one reason or another.

This completely and utterly contrary to what the Bible says will happen to disobedient servants of God.

Others will claim Christ, and yet will simply go through the motions, so that they will say "Lord, Lord," and never enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The bottom line is, we do not know who is predestined and who is not...

The bottom line is, you have to have faith, and have it to the very end to be saved in the end. No predetermined outcome for people apart from the requirement for faith will change the plain Biblical teaching that people are saved on the basis of trusting in Christ. People are not saved because they were chosen ahead of time apart from the merit of their works, or the necessity of having obedient faith to be saved as you are saying. Salvation is by a conscious decision to trust (with loads of God's gracious help, through his gracious gift of faith) in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the resultant declaration of righteousness.

...but I say all of this to come to my final point:

Because we were foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified before we came into existence, I have arrived at the conclusion that we cannot change this simply by pulling away or saying, "I don't want this anymore." I have said those words many times, and yet I still feel the pull, conviction, and comfort of the Holy Spirit in my life.

Besides the fact that you think you are believer, and thus saved, because God made you that way ahead of time, you apparently believe that OSAS is true because it's impossible for a believer to stop believing. That is one school of thought. And that to me is the question that has to be answered about OSAS. It's not a matter of what will happen to someone who stops believing. That is made very clear in scripture. The question is, is it really possible to do that? I've been showing that Jesus talks about the people who do that.

I know without a doubt I am saved...

Which you should.

... whether I wish to be at a given moment or not.

If you wish to not be saved long enough, Paul says God will grant your wish.

In our salvation, it is my belief we do not have free will, but in all other matters, we do. What we do is our choice, which is why we are accountable to God for our sins, and why our good deeds for His glory are legitimate and worthy to be placed at His feet in the End of Days.

People being made believers ahead of time is not only a most meaningless gospel, but it contradicts God's own word that he wants to see all men saved. The doctrine of predetermined believing makes God a liar because he tells us in the Bible "that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men" because he "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:1,3 NAS), knowing that he only made a few that can actually be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth but wants us to pray for them anyway because he desires them to be saved. Doesn't add up.

 

[Gregg]

Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


James 1
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Isn't great that Christians are not under the Law.

James 1:22-25: wonderful instructions, as God does bless men for many reasons. One blessing is that eternal life is just that - eternal; and that based upon the Father's completed work in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Gregg]

If you wish to not be saved long enough, Paul says God will grant your wish.

Jethro, ol' chap!
Where does Paul say that?

 

[gr8grace3]

Well if I was saying that I guess you'd have a point, lol.

What I'm saying is the 'work' of believing is how we access the forgiveness of sins, and the continued 'work' of believing is how we will continue to access the forgiveness of sins necessary to enter the kingdom of God.

Do you still believe that 'believing' is one of the works that Paul said can not justify? I see him CONTRASTING believing with the works of the law that can not justify. Surely you do too. Honestly, why has the church decided the very thing God has plainly told us to 'do' in order to be justified is actually a damnable work that can not justify if you say what the Bibles says, that you must 'do' that 'work' in order to be justified? Come on people. We're not stupid, are we? Why have we let ourselves be fooled by this ridiculous and unBiblical teaching? It's time for another reformation!

Jethro, Salvation is an instant in time. The moment a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ that person is saved and saved for an eternity. Acts 16:31. The Lord saves that person at that moment in time. That is why we have the aorist tense in "Believe" in that verse. The Moment one believes, the Lord saves them. Salvation is in His court at that moment. The person is saved and becomes the Lords Child, no matter what the child chooses to do with it.

Acts 16:31~~They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Our faith does not save us, the object of our faith saves us. The moment we have a clear, true belief in the Son He saves us. We can't get out of it, even if we are stupid enough to try to get out of It.

The unbiblical teaching is that the Lord will forsake us and that He can lie about giving us eternal life. If it can be taken back or lost the very definition of "eternal" would have to change in Christianity.

The continued 'work' of believing is called experiential sanctification in our sin state. The moment we believe we are positionally sanctified and 100% righteous in our new creation in Christ.

 

[Gary]

Isn't great that Christians are not under the Law.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them,he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


James 2
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

.