Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[eddif]

Sometimes we are so driven by what we as individuals believe, that we have trouble examining what we say / write and also what others are trying to say. Of me it was once said "I wish I could explain my explanation". Over the years I have sought to hear: (the scriptures, others, myself, good doctrine, heresy, truth, Jesus, etc.) in doing this, lukewarm is not where I want to wind up, and neither do I want to see others go there.

I totally realize I do not think / believe exactly like any one group. If I look at the 7 churches of Revelation, I see good and bad usually presented in most churches (sometimes very openly and with clear information). So I find, from time to time, adjustments that need to be made to my understanding.

Each of the following are presented separately, and IMHO need to be understood separately, but know their interaction with each other (just as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit interact).

I would love to make some statements; that are open to discussion:
Step 1. John's baptism is repentance (knowledge of sin-still exists today).
Step 2. Jesus's baptism is forgiveness of sins ( start now move into eternity)
Step 3. Holy Spirit's baptism is empowerment to witness (correct doctrine in love)

Without Jewish law you can not define sin IMHO
Without Gentiles you can not see a person without any guidance and without hope.
Jews and Gentiles sin, and both need help

Time exists today (started on day 4 of creation). I do not understand why God from eternity past moved into time, and at a point in the future will re-establish (?) eternity. My words and you can beat on me if you like. Fullness of time is an interesting concept.

The Word became flesh. What Jesus said / did is the word. An ox is equal to a NT bishop. Chewing the cud is meditating on the word of God. Split hoofs take the husk off the word of God (solid hoofs crush the word , paws do not remove the husk from the word). God spoke to Job out of creation. The veil needs to be removed from our understanding.

I wrote like I think. I will try and unwind any parable / hidden thing that did not seem to carry any understanding.
Romans 1:19-20

eddif

 

[gr8grace3]

Now read in my last post what Jesus said you must do to have his joy and blessing.

It's actually the church that is stripping believers of Christ's joy and blessing (eternal life) by telling them that it is not contingent on what they do. That's not what Jesus said. The manifest joy and blessing of God--his eternal life--now and in the life to come, is contingent on your obedient faith.

Spiritual maturity is dependent on ones obedient faith to bible doctrine. Salvation is dependent on a one shot deal with the Lord.

I do see what you are saying. The calvinists have got a huge chunk of believers stuck on their idea of election and predestination. They are so stuck on those 2 ideas that they never get past salvation and onto some meat. But Jethro, I have never been to one of their buildings and heard them preach, "Sin all you want!" They actually are just casual Catholics in the end, IMO.

Eternal life is contingent on KNOWING the Lord. John 17:3~~"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Over the years I have sought to hear: (the scriptures, others, myself, good doctrine, heresy, truth, Jesus, etc.) in doing this, lukewarm is not where I want to wind up, and neither do I want to see others go there.

I'm curious. Do you not want to be there because lukewarm works is a sign of a lack of faith in, and indifference to the forgiveness of God that justifies, or because we have to have on fire works to earn God's praise and kingdom reward for work well done above and beyond salvation itself? Or both?

I'm both.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Salvation is dependent on a one shot deal with the Lord.

Salvation is a one shot deal with the Lord only in that Christ's sacrifice does not have to be repeatedly performed in response to repeated sin. But the church has mistakenly taken Christ's one-time sacrifice to mean I'm 'once-saved-always-saved' regardless of how I live from here on out--even whether I continue to have faith in that one-time blood sacrifice that justified me, or not.

In practice, we must continue to rely on the one-time sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins every time we sin. Stop relying on the one-time sacrifice of Christ in heaven to cover your daily sin and you no longer have the one-time sacrifice of Christ covering your new sins. In fact, a lifestyle of careless, un-confessed sin is how one can know if they are really relying in faith on the blood that bought their forgiveness way back when. And so it is that works do indeed play a role in determining salvation. They determine if you are still relying on the blood that bought you.

I do see what you are saying. The calvinists have got a huge chunk of believers stuck on their idea of election and predestination. They are so stuck on those 2 ideas that they never get past salvation and onto some meat. But Jethro, I have never been to one of their buildings and heard them preach, "Sin all you want!"

Who isn't eventually deceived by their own deceitful message?

I've learned that just because a Christian denies the charge you are leveling against what they believe that doesn't mean they themselves can see what the actual, practical outcome of what they believe really is. I noticed this, particularly, in law discussions. Popular church teaching about the law actually abolishes the law and replaces it with a new, different law, but they insist that what they believe doesn't abolish the law.

They actually are just casual Catholics in the end, IMO.

I'm not Catholic, nor do I endorse the Catholic religion, but I have found from talking to some of them that they actually understand the role of works in faith in God better than us Protestants. That doesn't mean they don't have their own quirks about it that need straightening (speaking generally of Catholics, of course).

Eternal life is contingent on KNOWING the Lord. John 17:3~~"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

And do we know the Lord--this eternal life--by walking in works of darkness?

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. 20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-24 NIV)

No, of course not. We learn about and know God by walking in the light of righteous works. But many Christians insist they have eternal life in their disobedient, darkened 'faith only' lives. This is a real problem with popular grace teaching. It is as guilty in regard to being hypocritical to what it teaches about God's grace that the Pharisee of old was hypocritical to in regard to what they taught about the law of God. Grace believers won't stop being hypocritical until they start living out the eternal life that grace promises, actually living in those promises.

 

[gr8grace3]

Salvation is a one shot deal with the Lord only in that Christ's sacrifice does not have to be repeatedly performed in response to repeated sin. But the church has mistakenly taken Christ's one-time sacrifice to mean I'm 'once-saved-always-saved' regardless of how I live from here on out--even whether I continue to have faith in that one-time blood sacrifice that justified me, or not.

In practice, we must continue to rely on the one-time sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins every time we sin. Stop relying on the one-time sacrifice of Christ in heaven to cover your daily sin and you no longer have the one-time sacrifice of Christ covering your new sins. In fact, a lifestyle of careless, un-confessed sin is how one can know if they are really relying in faith on the blood that bought their forgiveness way back when. And so it is that works do indeed play a role in determining salvation. They determine if you are still relying on the blood that bought you.



Who isn't eventually deceived by their own deceitful message?

I've learned that just because a Christian denies the charge you are leveling against what they believe that doesn't mean they themselves can see what the actual, practical outcome of what they believe really is. I noticed this, particularly, in law discussions. Popular church teaching about the law actually abolishes the law and replaces it with a new, different law, but they insist that what they believe doesn't abolish the law.



I'm not Catholic, nor do I endorse the Catholic religion, but I have found from talking to some of them that they actually understand the role of works in faith in God better than us Protestants. That doesn't mean they don't have their own quirks about it that need straightening (speaking generally of Catholics, of course).


And do we know the Lord--this eternal life--by walking in works of darkness?

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. 20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-24 NIV)

No, of course not. We learn about and know God by walking in the light of righteous works. But many Christians insist they have eternal life in their disobedient, darkened 'faith only' lives. This is a real problem with popular grace teaching. It is as guilty in regard to being hypocritical to what it teaches about God's grace that the Pharisee of old was hypocritical to in regard to what they taught about the law of God. Grace believers won't stop being hypocritical until they start living out the eternal life that grace promises, actually living in those promises.

I would venture to guess that .001% of believers who are disobedient and living in the dark would say," I KNOW that I am Saved." Knowing that one is saved and eternally secure is for the discerning, walking in the light believer. If the believer is deceived, that truth is one of the first that they will question.

Is Grace a free gift? If we add anything to it , it is no longer free or a gift. Once we accept that gift from Christ, He hands it out. If He could take it back,it is not free.If one could not accept it, it would be forced. And if one had to work for it, it would be a trade. The merit in the free gift is from Him, not from us.

And if we were all truly honest with ourselves, we would all confess that we are living in the dark, being disobedient and willfully sinning in some areas of our lives. But the free gift stands.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if we were all truly honest with ourselves, we would all confess that we are living in the dark, being disobedient and willfully sinning in some areas of our lives. But the free gift stands.

Not if you do not run back to the one-time provision of Christ on the altar in heaven for the forgiveness of that disobedience. The free gift is for those who believe/trust in it, and continue to believe/trust in it. That hardly amounts to the free gift now being not free but dependent on the works of the law to secure it. Surely you agree.

 

[gr8grace3]

Not if you do not run back to the one-time provision of Christ on the altar in heaven for forgiveness for that disobedience. The free gift is for those who believe/trust in it, and continue to believe/trust in it. That hardly amounts to the free gift now being not free but dependent on the works of the law to secure it. Surely you agree.

I see a trade not a gift in this.

1. Keep running back.

2. continue to trust.

This means salvation or the gift is not attained until the believer runs back enough and trusts enough. Thus a trade off and not a free gift.

 

[gr8grace3]

Not if you do not run back to the one-time provision of Christ on the altar in heaven for the forgiveness of that disobedience. The free gift is for those who believe/trust in it, and continue to believe/trust in it. That hardly amounts to the free gift now being not free but dependent on the works of the law to secure it. Surely you agree.

Was it a one time provision or not? That future disobedience of sinners like us, was it covered or not? Did Christ pay for ALL sin or did He die for just the ones we confess?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see a trade not a gift in this.

1. Keep running back.

2. continue to trust.

This means salvation or the gift is not attained until the believer runs back enough and trusts enough.

It's the same gift each time, and it's not about running back a required 'x' amount of times in order to then attain that which the gift provides. It's simply continuing to rely on the free gift to do that which God said it will do. Trusting, and continuing to trust, is NOT the 'work' that Paul said can not justify. In fact, he contrasts this trust with the works that can not justify. Do you disagree?

Thus a trade off and not a free gift.

Remember, the definition of the free gift is that it is not secured by our works of the law. Is believing/trusting in the blood of Christ to forgive sin and make us righteous before God among the works of the law that Paul said can not justify? Somehow even trust in Christ got defined as the work that Paul says can not justify. But if you read his teaching in Romans he makes it clear that it is the 'work' of believing that he is contrasting works of the law with for justification. Surely you agree.

If you don't agree, show me where Paul says even trusting in the blood is a meritorious work that can not justify, just as works of the law are that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was it a one time provision or not? That future disobedience of sinners like us, was it covered or not? Did Christ pay for ALL sin or did He die for just the ones we confess?

The sacrifice is utterly and immeasurably all sufficient to cover all sins, for all people, past, future, and present, for all time. It is there in heaven for anyone, anywhere, at anytime to make their appeal to God for the forgiveness of their sin. But it can't do that for you if you don't have, or stop having, faith and trust in it to do that for you.

The one-time, for all sin, sacrifice of Christ's blood is for all people, but it is only effective for those who believe in it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This means salvation or the gift is not attained until the believer runs back enough and trusts enough. Thus a trade off and not a free gift.

Who in the Bible said a continual reliance on the blood of Christ, and 'trusting enough' in the blood of Christ are the damnable works of the law that can not justify?

The point is, justification is by having your sins removed through the forgiveness of sin, not by making up for them, or earning justification through the merit of righteous work as defined by the law. But somewhere along the line the church decided that even the believing that secures this justification through the forgiveness of sins is also a damnable work of merit that can not justify. But as we see, it is the very way God requires that one secure the free gift of forgiveness he offers. Free because it does not require the payment of righteous works of the law to attain, not free because you 'do' absolutely NOTHING to secure it.

 

[gr8grace3]

Salvation is a one shot deal with the Lord only in that Christ's sacrifice does not have to be repeatedly performed in response to repeated sin. But the church has mistakenly taken Christ's one-time sacrifice to mean I'm 'once-saved-always-saved' regardless of how I live from here on out--even whether I continue to have faith in that one-time blood sacrifice that justified me, or not.

In practice, we must continue to rely on the one-time sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins every time we sin. Stop relying on the one-time sacrifice of Christ in heaven to cover your daily sin and you no longer have the one-time sacrifice of Christ covering your new sins. In fact, a lifestyle of careless, un-confessed sin is how one can know if they are really relying in faith on the blood that bought their forgiveness way back when. And so it is that works do indeed play a role in determining salvation. They determine if you are still relying on the blood that bought you.



Who isn't eventually deceived by their own deceitful message?

I've learned that just because a Christian denies the charge you are leveling against what they believe that doesn't mean they themselves can see what the actual, practical outcome of what they believe really is. I noticed this, particularly, in law discussions. Popular church teaching about the law actually abolishes the law and replaces it with a new, different law, but they insist that what they believe doesn't abolish the law.



I'm not Catholic, nor do I endorse the Catholic religion, but I have found from talking to some of them that they actually understand the role of works in faith in God better than us Protestants. That doesn't mean they don't have their own quirks about it that need straightening (speaking generally of Catholics, of course).


And do we know the Lord--this eternal life--by walking in works of darkness?

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. 20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-24 NIV)

No, of course not. We learn about and know God by walking in the light of righteous works. But many Christians insist they have eternal life in their disobedient, darkened 'faith only' lives. This is a real problem with popular grace teaching. It is as guilty in regard to being hypocritical to what it teaches about God's grace that the Pharisee of old was hypocritical to in regard to what they taught about the law of God. Grace believers won't stop being hypocritical until they start living out the eternal life that grace promises, actually living in those promises.

I have never seen a Grace centered church teach disobedience, darkness with faith only. It actually is just the opposite of what you state. Free Grace teaches freedom IN Christ which leads to freedom from sin. They get to learn what it truly is like to be IN CHRIST and all the blessings,Joys and freedoms we have in that relationship.

If one teaches freedom in Christ and Gives the true bible doctrine of all the gifts and blessings Christ has for the believer, sin becomes less and less.

I am sorry Jethro, but what you teach is what basically every building that calls themselves a church teaches. One has to do church over the internet or search far and wide for a TRULY free grace, Christ centered message.

It's the same gift each time, and it's not about running back a required 'x' amount of times in order to then attain that which the gift provides. It's simply continuing to rely on the free gift to do that which God said it will do. Trusting, and continuing to trust, is NOT the 'work' that Paul said can not justify. In fact, he contrasts this trust with the works that can not justify. Do you disagree?
It is a one time gift. If we have to run back even once and get it again, it was not a gift and It was not free.



Remember, the definition of the free gift is that it is not secured by our works of the law. Is believing/trusting in the blood of Christ to forgive sin and make us righteous before God among the works of the law that Paul said can not justify? Somehow even trust in Christ got defined as the work that Paul says can not justify. But if you read his teaching in Romans he makes it clear that it is the 'work' of believing that he is contrasting works of the law with for justification. Surely you agree.

If you don't agree, show me where Paul says even trusting in the blood is a meritorious work that can not justify, just as works of the law are that.

I agree that believing is nonmeritorious. However, you are making it meritorious by saying that you HAVE to continue believing in order to receive the gift. You are making our believing the merit which warrants our salvation. And it is the object(Christ) of our faith that merits our salvation and He never changes.

Do you see what I am saying? You and I think that it is nonmeritorious but you put stock and merit in the believing. I put the stock and merit in the object of my faith.

 

[gr8grace3]

The sacrifice is utterly and immeasurably all sufficient to cover all sins, for all people, past, future, and present, for all time. It is there in heaven for anyone, anywhere, at anytime to make their appeal to God for the forgiveness of their sin. But it can't do that for you if you don't have, or stop having, faith and trust in it to do that for you.

The one-time, for all sin, sacrifice of Christ's blood is for all people, but it is only effective for those who believe in it.

Sounds pretty reformed based to me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sounds pretty reformed based to me.

If it's the truth, who cares?

It's time to cast off these man-made denominations and schools of thought that don't allow the people of God to embrace individual truths these varying divisions of man may actually have in them.

I don't think I could define Calvanism or Arminianism to save my life. I just know what the Bible says. I'm not hemmed in by a self imposed framework of predefined beliefs that I have to stay within. I'm free to embrace any and all truth no matter where it may be found.

I think it was chessman in another thread who made a comment about almost all commentaries seeing a certain point his way, not mine. I didn't take the time to respond but that is exactly what got us into this mess of misguided, erroneous, uneducated doctrine. I don't see any value in measuring one's doctrine as truth against the very one's who decided for us it was the truth. We have to go by what we read in the Bible and resist doctrines that ignore the whole counsel of the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree that believing is nonmeritorious. However, you are making it meritorious by saying that you HAVE to continue believing in order to receive the gift. You are making our believing the merit which warrants our salvation.

Yes!

But if you show me where in the Bible it says you can be saved without the 'merit' of believing/ trusting in the blood of Christ you will win me over to your side.

And it is the object(Christ) of our faith that merits our salvation and He never changes.

Do you see what I am saying? You and I think that it is nonmeritorious but you put stock and merit in the believing. I put the stock and merit in the object of my faith.

Oh, don't misunderstand. Believing is only as good as that which is being believed in. I understand that completely. But that hardly removes the requirement to believe in order to secure the greatness and surety of what is being believed for.

But anyway, can't you see that it is entirely wrong to tell people you can stop having faith in Christ and still have that which faith secures because salvation is not of works? Having faith is simply NOT included in the works that can not justify. But, please, if I have missed the scriptural teaching that says that it is, show me and I will repent immediately.

 

[Deborah13]

In fact, a lifestyle of careless, un-confessed sin is how one can know if they are really relying in faith on the blood that bought their forgiveness way back when. And so it is that works do indeed play a role in determining salvation. They determine if you are still relying on the blood that bought you.

On this one point is where I beg to defer and it may be just a matter of semantics, we shall see.

The truth of the matter it seems to me is based on this whole idea of confessing your sins to God and asking for forgiveness. I cannot find one scripture where Paul ever instructs us to do this but he does shout loudly REPENT!

When I really realized that this confessing, asking forgiveness, receiving forgiveness cycle as a problem was when my sister-in-law, who is RCC, confronted me again about my family not being RCC and it's the true church.
She actually wrinkled her nose at the idea that there is a difference between admitting one sinned and asking God to forgive, vs. true repentance. So I see there is a problem in teaching what repentance is. So I think we can only judge ourselves by the condition of a repent heart out of which will come works of faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

She actually wrinkled her nose at the idea that there is a difference between admitting one sinned and asking God to forgive, vs. true repentance. So I see there is a problem in teaching what repentance is. So I think we can only judge ourselves by the condition of a repent heart out of which will come works of faith.

I agree completely with this. I have shared the scripture that says truly relying on the forgiveness of God in a keen awareness and remembrance of that forgiveness is measured and recognized by the fruit it produces:

"9 For he who lacks these qualities (that he just listed--see context) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. " (2 Peter 1:9 NAS)

So, I have no argument against what you say. Truly being forgiven and living a repentant, fruitful life are inseparable. If you are truly seeking God's forgiveness it will show in your ever-increasing works of repentance. If you are increasing in works of repentance, you show that you truly have the forgiveness of God applied to your life and can be certain of the calling and election you have received. That's why the Bible exhorts us to be careful to have works of righteousness attached to our faith--so we can know for ourselves that we are truly saved and prepared for the Day of Wrath.

 

[Deborah13]

I have never seen a Grace centered church teach disobedience, darkness with faith only. It actually is just the opposite of what you state. Free Grace teaches freedom IN Christ which leads to freedom from sin. They get to learn what it truly is like to be IN CHRIST and all the blessings,Joys and freedoms we have in that relationship.

If one teaches freedom in Christ and Gives the true bible doctrine of all the gifts and blessings Christ has for the believer, sin becomes less and less.

I am sorry Jethro, but what you teach is what basically every building that calls themselves a church teaches. One has to do church over the internet or search far and wide for a TRULY free grace, Christ centered message.


I agree that believing is nonmeritorious. However, you are making it meritorious by saying that you HAVE to continue believing in order to receive the gift. You are making our believing the merit which warrants our salvation. And it is the object(Christ) of our faith that merits our salvation and He never changes.

Do you see what I am saying? You and I think that it is nonmeritorious but you put stock and merit in the believing. I put the stock and merit in the object of my faith.

 

[eddif]

I'm curious. Do you not want to be there because lukewarm works is a sign of a lack of faith in, and indifference to the forgiveness of God that justifies, or because we have to have on fire works to earn God's praise and kingdom reward for work well done above and beyond salvation itself? Or both?

I'm both.

Hot God knows how to respond to us.
Cold God knows how to respond to us.
Lukewarm He will spew us out of his mouth

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

I agree completely with this. I have shared the scripture that says truly relying on the forgiveness of God in a keen awareness and remembrance of that forgiveness is measured and recognized by the fruit it produces:

"9 For he who lacks these qualities (that he just listed--see context) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. " (2 Peter 1:9 NAS)

So, I have no argument against what you say. Truly being forgiven and living a repentant, fruitful life are inseparable. If you are truly seeking God's forgiveness it will show in your ever-increasing works of repentance. If you are increasing in works of repentance, you show that you truly have the forgiveness of God applied to your life and can be certain of the calling and election you have received. That's why the Bible exhorts us to be careful to have works of righteousness attached to our faith--so we can know for ourselves that we are truly saved and prepared for the Day of Wrath.

I'm not seeking God's forgiveness for justification when I repent. Neither do I repent in order to receive God's forgiveness for justification. I believe that can only be done once for justification unto salvation. If one were to lose their salvation that's it, it's over with and they would remain apostate.

However, it is true that a repentant heart will respond to the Lord producing good works in them where they didn't have good works in that area before.
In your 2 Peter scripture we see that the ultimate goal is brotherly love. So Peter exhorts them to remember that they have been forgiven and they in turn need to respond by loving others. If one forgets God's mercy and grace given to them in their time of need they are in danger of stumbling.
The more one knows the Lord loves them the more they are free to love others as themselves. If one forgets this and acts without love, thus stumbling, they can expect the Holy Spirit to discipline their arrogant heart.