Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

Show me where it states that in the bible.
.

That has been shown already in this forum.

 

[Butch5]

That has been shown already in this forum.

Hi Gregg,

I'd argue that it has been inferred from passages on this forum. The Scriptures show people who have been lost.

 

[Butch5]

If Salvation cannot be lost can someone explain to me why the earliest Christians taught that it could be? Also, if it can't be lost why was it not accepted in the church until the Reformation?

These are serious questions that need to be addressed if we are going to settle this issue. In this debate, for some reason, passions seem to elevate and it seems to me that sometimes logical reasoning gets tossed out the window. I think that fact that this doctrine was rejected by the church for 1400+ years carries a whole lot of weight.

 

[Gary]

Show me where it states that in the bible.
.

That has been shown already in this forum.

Would you mind posting it again?
.

 

[Gary]

Hi Gary,

2 Pet 2:18-22 address false prophets and those who follow their false teaching. Christians aren't as dogs and sows, but sheep who follow their Shepherd. Should one of His sheep stray, He will retrieve that sheep.

That's not the point of the passage. Read what it says about the followers of those false prophets.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have "escaped" the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


They had escaped the pollutions of the world. They were on the straight and narrow and for some reason their attention was drawn away from Christ. They weren't snatched away or stolen out of the hand of God. They walked away of their own volition. They didn't know they were following a lie. They were convinced in their heart that the christ they worshiped was the true Son of God.

Christians aren't as dogs and sows, but sheep who follow their Shepherd.

The individuals in that passage from 2 Peter call themselves Christians. So do the ones referenced in Matthew.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

.

 

[Gregg]

That's not the point of the passage. Read what it says about the followers of those false prophets.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have "escaped" the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

They had escaped the pollutions of the world. They were on the straight and narrow and for some reason their attention was drawn away from Christ. They weren't snatched away or stolen out of the hand of God. They walked away of their own volition. They didn't know they were following a lie. They were convinced in their heart that the christ they worshiped was the true Son of God.

The individuals in that passage from 2 Peter call themselves Christians. So do the ones referenced in Matthew.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’.

Gary,
Rather, you will need to show that Peter was talking about men who are born again, saved so that Jesus was their Lord and Savior. A man may have "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" but may not know Him. Matthew explains that in the verses you quoted (Mat 7:21-23).

 

[Butch5]

Gary,
Rather, you will need to show that Peter was talking about men who are born again, saved so that Jesus was their Lord and Savior. A man may have "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" but may not know Him. Matthew explains that in the verses you quoted (Mat 7:21-23).

Hi Gregg,

Can I ask a question? If Peter is not speaking of believers can you tell me the point is he's making? Is he saying the lost will be lost?

 

[Gregg]

Hi Gregg,

Can I ask a question? If Peter is not speaking of believers can you tell me the point is he's making? Is he saying the lost will be lost?

I do not believe that he was saying, 'the lost will be lost.'

Peter was writing to the immediate audience [among whom were Christians], and also speaking of another group [false teachers and prophets] who were influencing them.

Peter did not say that Christians could lose their salvation in 2 Pet 2:18-22.

 

[Butch5]

Peter was writing to the immediate audience [among whom were Christians], and also speaking of another group [false teachers and prophets] who were influencing them.

Peter did not say that Christians could lose their salvation in 2 Pet 2:18-22.

But what was his point if he's saying he lost will be lost. I would think that was rather obvious and not need pointing out. Who are those who have escaped the pollution of the world, the lost?

 

[Gregg]

But what was his point if he's saying he lost will be lost. I would think that was rather obvious and not need pointing out. Who are those who have escaped the pollution of the world, the lost?

I added to my previous post: "I do not believe that he was saying, 'the lost will be lost.' "

The text says "if . . . . they escaped," a conditionality. The false prophets only knew about the Lord, but they did not know the Lord. Balaam, a [false] prophet, knew about the Lord (2 Pet 2:15), but he led Israel astray.

 

[Butch5]

I added to my previous post: "I do not believe that he was saying, 'the lost will be lost.' "

The text says "if . . . . they escaped." The false prophets only knew about the Lord, but they did not know the Lord. Balaam, a [false] prophet, knew about the Lord (2 Pet 2:15), but he led Israel astray.

Verse 18 says they were clean escaped from those who live in error. Who are they that were clean escaped?

You said, false prophets knew "about" the Lord, but they didn't know the Lord. Can you explain the difference?

 

[Gary]

Gary,
Rather, you will need to show that Peter was talking about men who are born again, saved so that Jesus was their Lord and Savior. A man may have "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" but may not know Him. Matthew explains that in the verses you quoted (Mat 7:21-23).

Look at the bold red. If someone escapes the pollutions of the world and is no longer living in error, what would you call that?


2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
.

 

[Gregg]

Verse 18 says they were clean escaped from those who live in error. Who are they that were clean escaped?

Please read the very words of the text, "escaping the ones living in error" (2 Per 2:18). In that verse, it did not say that they escaped death, or that they were saved.

You said, false prophets knew "about" the Lord, but they didn't know the Lord. Can you explain the difference?

A person can know about Christ [His attributes, nature, accomplishments] as many do, but not be saved [having come to know Him as Lord and Savior].

 

[Gary]

I added to my previous post: "I do not believe that he was saying, 'the lost will be lost.' "

The text says "if . . . . they escaped," a conditionality. The false prophets only knew about the Lord, but they did not know the Lord. Balaam, a [false] prophet, knew about the Lord (2 Pet 2:15), but he led Israel astray.

The text says "if after they escaped", not "if they escape".

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


It makes a difference.
.

 

[Butch5]

Please read the very words of the text, "escaping the ones living in error" (2 Per 2:18). It did not say that they escaped salvation or eternal life.

That's what I said, they escaped those who live in error. My question is who are they that have escaped those who live in error?

A person can know about Christ [His attributes, nature, accomplishments] as many do, but not be saved [having come to know His as Lord and Savior].

I understand that. What I'm asking is what's the difference? How does one know if they just know facts about Christ being the savior and knowing Christ is the savior

 

[Gary]

That has been shown already in this forum.

Would you mind posting it again?
.

 

[Gregg]

My question is who are they that have escaped those who live in error?

The text says 'if . . . they have escaped'; [a conditionality] which does not necessarily lead to a proof for or against OSAS. It does not say that they have escaped, or that they have not escaped - it says "if."

I understand that. What I'm asking is what's the difference? How does one know if they just know facts about Christ being the savior and knowing Christ is the savior

That answer also has been stated in this thread.

 

[Gregg]

Would you mind posting it again?

Please do the work yourself, Gary.
I can not read for you, or type for you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have no need to look at it again. But you, please, look at it again . . . and again . . . and again [pun intended!].

"...if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NAS)

"...if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast..." (Colossians 1:23 NAS)

Or what, Gregg. Or what?

 

[Gary]

Please do the work yourself, Gary.
I can not read for you, or type for you.

Nice christian attitude you got there. I thought since you knew what the verse was you could post it and I wouldn't have to browse through 450 + posts. Guess not.

Oh well, it's not important. I know what the truth is.
.