Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not sure what you are saying. The phrase "as it was for…" doesn't seem to fit. Nor does "if and when that is true".

Let me help you see what Jesus was getting at:

"25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answerand say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets '; 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.' 28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. " (Luke 13:25-28 NASB capital letters in original)

You see, Jesus was talking about a very specific group of people who 'never knew him', but the church has decided Matthew 7:22-23 NASB is a catch-all doctrine that those who don't know Christ never knew him to begin with. This Luke passage fills in the blanks for us so we can see that it is not the catch-all doctrine they think it is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Verse please?

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

See? No second chances. You're only allowed to believe once.

(This is one of the passages that plainly says sanctified believers can lose their salvation, but which you are sure does not exist.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only way you cannot be in charge of your salvation is if you can't change it in any way. Your view has your salvation conditioned upon your own behavior. That is not taught in Scripture.

No, it is conditioned on your believing. You really do need to get the non-OSAS argument straight.

Again, not the point.

Yes it is. What makes salvation gracious is the fact that you can't do it on your own by your own works, not that you have absolutely NOTHING to do with it as the church erroneously teaches these days.

But your view includes all that sinful behavior as reasons why one can lose their salvation. Seems you're being inconsistent here.

You lose your salvation because of unbelief. Unbelief manifests itself as sin, just as believing manifests itself in turning away from sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm out of time, but FreeGrace needs to show how the forgiveness of justification is somehow inconsistent with the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB. That somehow, according to him, the forgiveness of debt in the parable in no way signifies the forgiveness of sin debt in salvation. You show that, and I'll show how it most definitely signifies the forgiveness of sin debt in salvation.

 

[white hamster]

This speaks of the child of God being an heir of God, per Rom 8:17a.


No, the difference is found in clear texts that differentiate between believers who will be rewarded and those who will not be rewarded.

John said this: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward
2 Jn 8

Paul said this: If any man’s work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Cor 3:14-15

Please take note of the conditional clauses:

IF any man's work abides, he will receive a reward. But,,,
IF any man's work shall be burned, he will suffer loss (of that reward)

However, the "but" clearly shows that though such a believer loses reward, he himself will be SAVED.

No question about it. And this surely isn't complicated.

Works salvation is heresy.
No, it isn't complicated at all.

 

[JLB]

Free grace said -

And Paul used it differently in 1 Cor 6, Eph 5 and Gal 5.

Here are the verses you tagged to your opinion.

Let's write out plainly what these scriptures say, and compare Pauls uses of this phrase with the way Jesus uses this phrase.


Jesus use of the phrase -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Access granted to God's Kingdom

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Not inherit the kingdom,


Paul's use of the phrase means the same as Jesus -

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

and again -

8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-11

and again -

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption...Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ephesians 5:1-5


For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


This scripture is written to Christians.


Paul use of the phrase means the same as Jesus use of the phrase: denied access to God's Kingdom on Judgement Day.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Why are you defining sealed as 'forever and irreversible', as if that's what the word actually means in and of itself?

For one very good reason. That's how Scripture defines it. First, there are no verses that tell us that this seal can be broken. If it could be, as your position demands, then where are the verses that support that idea?

Second, Rom 11:29 is very clear: God's gifts are irrevocable. And eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23).

Fourthly; Paul tells us why the Holy Spirit is our seal and guarantee within that very passage:

Ephesians 1:13-14... to the praise of his glory.​

If a sealed believer were to become de-saved, it de-glorifies Him (Jesus), not the believer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let me help you see what Jesus was getting at:

"25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answerand say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets '; 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.' 28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. " (Luke 13:25-28 NASB capital letters in original)

You see, Jesus was talking about a very specific group of people who 'never knew him', but the church has decided Matthew 7:22-23 NASB is a catch-all doctrine that those who don't know Christ never knew him to begin with. This Luke passage fills in the blanks for us so we can see that it is not the catch-all doctrine they think it is.

Unfortunately, you have tried to conflate 2 separate incidents, which are not at all related.

The context for Luke 13:25-28 begins at v.22, which is important for proper understanding. Jesus was asked, "are only a few people going to be saved?" His answer was that they needed to enter through the narrow door (Matt 7), because many will try to enter and will not be able to.

Jesus was speaking of the religious Jewish rulers who thought they "had a ticket to heaven" because of their works, rather than faith in the Messiah. They certainly wanted in, but will not be able to do so, just as Jesus said.

v.26 was true: those religious leaders did eat and drink with Jesus, but they rejected Him as Messiah.

 

[FreeGrace]

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

See? No second chances. You're only allowed to believe once.

Many people have returned to the faith, so your opinion isn't correct. And v.26 has already been explained, and not refuted. those Hebrew believers were turning back to the law and sacrifice, but since Christ died for all sin, there isn't any more sacrifice for sins. He already paid it.

Would you kindly explain how I'm wrong here?

(This is one of the passages that plainly says sanctified believers can lose their salvation, but which you are sure does not exist.)

In order for any verse to "plainly say" something, those words need to be "plainly there". And in this verse, they aren't. Plus, I have explained what was meant. How would one refute my view?

 

[FreeGrace]

No, it is conditioned on your believing. You really do need to get the non-OSAS argument straight.

First, salvation is definitely conditioned upon believing. But that isn't "having a part in your salvation". Such wording indicates that you have participated in what God has already done. Did God let you wrap up the gift? No. Did He let you pick out the gift? No. iow, you had no part in it. All you could do is receive it. And that is NOT having a part in your gift.

That would be like saying, after unwrapping all your Christmas presents, "look what part I had in all of these presents", or same thing after your birthday party. The recipient has NO part in the gift, whatsoever. It is simply an error to claim otherwise.

Second, I'm completely aware of your argument, which I've been refuting all along. Without any substantive rebuttal. Disagreements and claims don't equal refutation or rebuttal.

Yes it is. What makes salvation gracious is the fact that you can't do it on your own by your own works, not that you have absolutely NOTHING to do with it as the church erroneously teaches these days.

An erroneous claim. The gift was planned and executed long before any of us were born. We had NOTHING to do with it. All we can do is receive it.

You lose your salvation because of unbelief. Unbelief manifests itself as sin, just as believing manifests itself in turning away from sin.

How many sins did Christ die for? Your view demands that He didn't die for apostasy. If that were so, what verse actually says that (plainly states)?

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm out of time, but FreeGrace needs to show how the forgiveness of justification is somehow inconsistent with the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB.

I did already. The servant was forgiven his debt, but when he didn't forgive the debt of another, which is sin, God held him accountable. This is about God's divine discipline and accountability.

And again, I repeat; your view has no plainly stated verses that speak of loss of salvation. All the verses cited have been explained as loss of reward.

And…where is the rebuttal from your side regarding loss of reward clearly stated in 1 Cor 3:14,15 and 2 Jn 8? You see, the OSAS side does have Scripture to back up its claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

Works salvation is heresy.
No, it isn't complicated at all.

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Here are the verses you tagged to your opinion.

Let's write out plainly what these scriptures say, and compare Pauls uses of this phrase with the way Jesus uses this phrase.


Jesus use of the phrase -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Access granted to God's Kingdom

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Not inherit the kingdom,


Paul's use of the phrase means the same as Jesus -

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

and again -

8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-11

and again -

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption...Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ephesians 5:1-5


For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


This scripture is written to Christians.


Paul use of the phrase means the same as Jesus use of the phrase: denied access to God's Kingdom on Judgement Day.


JLB

If loss of inheritance of the kingdom means loss of salvation, then salvation is by avoiding sin. None of the passages regarding warning of loss of inheritance (1 Cor 6, Eph 5, Gal 5) speak of loss of faith. They all speak of sins.

So, your view then must be that sin keeps one out of the kingdom. Yet, you've argued that loss of faith keeps one out.

Which is it? Your view is contradictory.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe that further discussion and/or debate cannot proceed, until someone from the "loss of salvation" side can address the clear issue of rewards being earned based on behavior. One of them has posted that salvation is a reward, but if that is so, then salvation is earned, which contradicts Paul's message in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

So, is salvation a reward? If so, what verse teaches that it is?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Fourthly; Paul tells us why the Holy Spirit is our seal and guarantee within that very passage:

Ephesians 1:13-14... to the praise of his glory.​

If a sealed believer were to become de-saved, it de-glorifies Him (Jesus), not the believer.

Sounds good, but we have plain scripture that talks about sanctified believers losing their salvation. Those scriptures keep you from reading OSAS into 'to the praise of his glory'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Many people have returned to the faith, so your opinion isn't correct.

Nope. Not once they get barred from having faith again. Ask Aardverk.

And v.26 has already been explained, and not refuted. those Hebrew believers were turning back to the law and sacrifice, but since Christ died for all sin, there isn't any more sacrifice for sins. He already paid it.

Would you kindly explain how I'm wrong here?

In order for any verse to "plainly say" something, those words need to be "plainly there". And in this verse, they aren't. Plus, I have explained what was meant. How would one refute my view?

Besides defying the context of the passage, your misuse of there being no remaining sacrifice for sin in the passage makes no sense, and makes the grace of God a license to sin.

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. " (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB caps in original)

Obviously, if he was talking about the sacrifice of Christ covering the willful sin of sanctified believers and making it so there is no longer any requirement for the Mosaic sacrifice then the 'terrifying expectation of judgment' would not be necessary. Think about it.

 

[DRS81]

Not Christians?

Again, you have denied what the clear wording of scripture states.

... do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30 - Is it the world, that Paul commands not to grieve the Holy Spirit, by which you were sealed?

Nope, a seal is a seal brother. Do you know what God's seal is? Eph 1:14 is referring to born again christians inheriting the kingdom of God. Either you're in the kingdom or you're going to hell. And if you're not born again you're going to hell. Read the Pulpit commentary, we can all learn something from this. It says, (The kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.)

Eph 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Pulpit Commentary - http://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-14.htm
Verse 14. - Who is the earnest of our inheritance. The gift of the Spirit is not only a seal, but an earnest, firstfruit, or installment, a pledge that the rest shall follow. The seal of the Spirit not only assures us of the full inheritance to come, but gives us a right conception of its nature. It shows us the kind of provision God makes for those whom he takes as his heritage, his peculiar people. It is an inward heaven the Spirit brings them. "The kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost." The full inheritance will consist in a heart in full sympathy with God, and in those occupations and joys, intellectual and moral, which are most congenial to such a heart.

JLB, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Think of inheritance in this way, since an inheritance indicates ownership. Consider the difference between owning the home you are living in, or renting the home you are living in. Not that any believer will pay "rent" in the kingdom, but I'm speaking of the status between ownership and that of renter. Big difference. The owner is in charge, while the renter isn't.

Read post #2117 to JLB, let me know your thoughts.

Let me add, you can only believe once. That's why you have to continue in that believing. There are no second chances after you fall away from Christ.

And born again christians will endure, they will not fall away because the spirit of God dwells within them and will not forsake them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you

I believe that further discussion and/or debate cannot proceed, until someone from the "loss of salvation" side can address the clear issue of rewards being earned based on behavior. One of them has posted that salvation is a reward, but if that is so, then salvation is earned, which contradicts Paul's message in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

So, is salvation a reward? If so, what verse teaches that it is?

There are rewards, but they are all in the context of, and intrinsically connected to, residing within the kingdom. There is no salvation outside of the New Jerusalem. We showed you the plain scriptures that show us this.

 

[chessman]

Sounds good, but we have plain scripture that talks about sanctified believers losing their salvation. Those scriptures keep you from reading OSAS into 'to the praise of his glory'.

It sounds good because it is good.

But no, we have (after 2000 posts) zero Scriptures that talk about sanctified believers losing their salvation. As I read through the 66 books, I found only one believer to be completely sanctified. The rest, fell away (sinned) often.

 

[JLB]

Works salvation is heresy.
No, it isn't complicated at all.

Earning salvation by the works of the law is heresy.

Walking in obedience to the Spirit who has been given to us to lead us and guide us, is not trying to earn salvation by the works of law.


Hopefully you can see the difference.


JLB