Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[jonahmano]

Those grace stung believers who are just sitting on their ass are better off then an unbeliever trying to imitate Christ to be saved, never having put their faith in what they are trying to imitate.

Why does an unbeliever have to try to imitate Jesus? Only nuts will do that. Your attempt is so diminising. Every prayer, every reading and every fellowship is done by faith and there aren't goosebumps nor th burning of hearts at all times.

The believer who does nothing will be miserable,disciplined,reaping what they sow,Possible sin unto death,lost blessings, lost rewards. But still going to heaven.

Yeah that is not happening as you think always. I have seen with my own eyes of many simply sitting believers. Everything they say God has done this and God has done that and it's all grace and God looks into the hearts of people but can't see anything in their lives.

Grace-preachers great approach to pulling people into heaven but that will not work that way.

The unbeliever who is trying to imitate Christ and does not have faith in Him alone for salvation will have less discipline in this life(they don't know any better) but does not make it to heaven and ends up in the lake of Fire.

Why does an unbeliever have to go into discipline in the first place?? You argument is destroyed by simple illustration that you must not forget whatever things we do to God it's by faith and it's by belief. Supernaturals are not happeing in my prayer room or on bible-study desk. I'm doing all this by faith but always better than simply sitting grace-believers.

 

[Gregg]

jbl , jethro , jonahmano [the trinity of J's]:

Do you believe Jesus Christ could stop believing in God the Father?

Do you believe Jesus Christ could lose or forfeit eternal life for Himself?

 

[jonahmano]

jbl , jethro , jonahmano [the trinity of J's]:

Do you believe Jesus Christ could stop believing in God the Father?

Do you believe Jesus Christ could lose or forfeit eternal life for Himself?

How can God disown his own personality? Jesus is the eternal life then how can you question that he could forfeit or lose eternal life?

My question if the grace-prechers would jump the gun that we must imitate Jesus Christ

 

[DRS81]

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

The folks in verse 34, standing on His right hand, inherit the kingdom.

Yup, we inherit the kingdom by accepting Jesus as Savior. Rom 10:9

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/matthew/25-34.htm
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. The happiness of the saints, in the other world, is here expressed by a "kingdom", because of the glory, riches, grandeur, and magnificence of it; as it is sometimes by a crown, for the same reason, suitable to their character and dignity, who are made kings and priests by Christ: and is likewise represented as an "inheritance", as it is elsewhere, being not acquired by industry, or obtained by merit; but is the gift of their heavenly Father, and in right of adoption, as the children of God, being made such by his free grace and favour, and denotes the stability and perpetuity of it: and this is said to be prepared, not only appointed and designed in the council purposes, and decrees of God, but got ready; it is a kingdom erected, an inheritance reserved, and a crown of righteousness laid up in heaven; a glory really provided and secured in an everlasting covenant, and that for you: for some, and not others; for the sheep on the right hand, and not the goats on the left; for the peculiar favourites of God, the objects of his love and choice, the redeemed of the Lamb, and that are born of the Spirit; and that for them,

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

The folks in verse 41, on the left hand, will not inherit the kingdom.

...will not inherit the kingdom = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire.

Yup, and verse 41 is not talking about born again christians under grace.

When we see the phrase... will not inherit the kingdom, in the Scriptures written by Paul, it means they will hear these words on Judgement Day: 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire...

Jesus Christ set the precedent for the meaning of this phrase. It will never mean any other thing in scripture.

Not inheriting the kingdom = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire.



All the shameful attempts to discredit and distort what this phrase means is disgraceful.

What you're not understanding is that once you come to faith in Jesus Christ you're also inheriting the kingdom of God right there. Christians are not waiting to die to inherit the kingdom, the kingdom of God is within us!

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Matthew 12:28 - But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

This is most likely why Paul wrote these powerful words...1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2

People departing from the faith, because they have been taught that no matter how they live or if they believe or not, they will always be saved.

No need to test yourself to see if you are in the faith! Because OSAS.


JLB

1 Tim 4:1-2 is talking about false teachers and prophets, not born again christians.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-1.htm
4:1-5 The Holy Spirit, both in the Old and the New Testament, spoke of a general turning from the faith of Christ, and the pure worship of God. This should come during the Christian dispensation, for those are called the latter days. False teachers forbid as evil what God has allowed, and command as a duty what he has left indifferent. We find exercise for watchfulness and self-denial, in attending to the requirements of God's law, without being tasked to imaginary duties, which reject what he has allowed. But nothing justifies an intemperate or improper use of things; and nothing will be good to us, unless we seek by prayer for the Lord's blessing upon it.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-1.htm
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,.... The prophecy hereafter mentioned was not an human conjecture, but, as all true prophecy, it came from the Spirit of God, who spoke or delivered it; either in the prophets of the Old Testament, who, as they spoke of the Gospel dispensation, so of the defection that should be in it; and particularly of antichrist, and of the apostasy through him, which is what is here intended, especially in Daniel's prophecies, under the names of the little horn, and vile person, Daniel 7:1 and Daniel 11:1, or in the Lord Jesus Christ, who foretold that false prophets would arise and deceive many; or in some of the prophets in the Christian church, such as Agabus, and others, who might in so many words foretell this thing; or rather in the apostle himself, at this time, since this prophecy was delivered not in dark sayings, in an enigmatical way, in an obscure manner, as prophecies generally were, but in plain language, and easy to be understood, and wanted no interpreter to unriddle it; and seeing that it is nowhere to be found in so many express words elsewhere: and moreover, the apostle does not say the Spirit "hath spoken", but the Spirit "speaketh"; then, at the time of the writing of these words, in and by him. The prediction follows,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-1.htm
And doctrines of devils; such as are devised by devils, as all damnable doctrines be; and all lying ones, for the devil is the father of them; and as are all the false doctrines introduced by antichrist, for his coming was after the working of Satan; and particularly those doctrines of his concerning worshipping of angels, and saints departed, may be called the doctrines of devils, or of "demons"; being much the same with the demon worship among the Heathens, of which the devil was the inventor: unless by doctrines of devils should be meant the doctrines of men, who for their cunning and sophistry, for their lies and hypocrisy, for their malice, and murdering of the souls of men, are comparable to devils.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It sounds good because it is good.

But no, we have (after 2000 posts) zero Scriptures that talk about sanctified believers losing their salvation. As I read through the 66 books, I found only one believer to be completely sanctified. The rest, fell away (sinned) often.

I'm used to the redefining of terms that OSAS depends on, and so I see you have redefined 'fell away' to mean 'simply sinning' to confuse the willful sinning spoken about in Hebrews 10 to make it refer to any and all believers.

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:23,26-31 NASB emphasis in original)

And we know the author is not talking about these willfully sinning, sanctified believers still being saved despite their disowning of Christ from these passages:

"...Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB)

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9 NASB)

The point being, if they still belonged to Christ they would not be subject to the wrath of God that the passage says these sanctified, but Christ denying believers will face.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And born again christians will endure, they will not fall away because the spirit of God dwells within them and will not forsake them.

Believers can indeed fall away from Christ. Here we see sanctified believers trampling on Christ, and God turning them over to his judgment for doing that:

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies withoutmercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HISPEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. " (Hebrews 10:23,26-31 NASB caps in original)

 

[DRS81]

Believers can indeed fall away from Christ. Here we see sanctified believers trampling on Christ, and God turning them over to his judgment for doing that:

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies withoutmercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HISPEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. " (Hebrews 10:23,26-31 NASB caps in original)

But why would a believer deny the deity of Christ?

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God: this seems to be a stronger expression than crucifying him again, Hebrews 6:6 and is to be understood, not of what was in fact committed, but in will by persons; who, could they have had their will of him, would have pulled him from his throne, and trampled upon him: it is a phrase expressive of the utmost scorn, contempt, and ill usage; and which such are guilty of, who deny his deity, and eternal sonship; who render him useless in his offices, undervalue his sacrifice, despise his righteousness, and strip him of the glory of his person, office, and grace. And this is aggravated by his being the Son of God who is thus used, who became the son of man for the sake of men, is superior to men, and equal with God:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace; by denying his being, deity, and personality; despising his powerful operations as enthusiasm; treating his extraordinary gifts as illusions; and ascribing his miracles to Satan, and representing the Gospel dictated by him as a fable, or a lie: and this is aggravated by his being "the spirit of grace"; the author, giver, and applier of all grace to the saints; and who therefore ought not to be in the least slighted, but highly esteemed and honoured; nor will such affronts go unpunished.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I did already. The servant was forgiven his debt, but when he didn't forgive the debt of another, which is sin, God held him accountable. This is about God's divine discipline and accountability.

And again, I repeat; your view has no plainly stated verses that speak of loss of salvation. All the verses cited have been explained as loss of reward.

Problem. The debt that was forgiven was a debt the servant could not repay. Our obligation to work in the kingdom according to our particular gift is not a debt that we can not pay and which is taken away if we beg for mercy.

And…where is the rebuttal from your side regarding loss of reward clearly stated in 1 Cor 3:14,15....

I explained this already. The work of the believer that gets burned up are the people they placed in the building and household of God who ended up being made up of material that could not withstand the fires of the coming Judgment and were lost. That worker has nothing to show for his labor, his work in the building and field of God. He himself will be saved--assuming he himself is made of that which will pass safety through the coming Judgment--but his work (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB) will not.

...and 2 Jn 8?

Yes.....as long as you keep believing. Forever is conditional on continuing to believe to the very end of this age. This is what scripture plainly says.

You see, the OSAS side does have Scripture to back up its claim.

...but which I'm showing is easily refuted by knowledge of the full counsel of scripture.

 

[Gregg]

How can God disown his own personality? Jesus is the eternal life then how can you question that he could forfeit or lose eternal life?

Yes, Jesus is the Life. He could not stop believing in God the Father, nor could He lose or forfeit eternal life for Himself?

My point is that Christians are inseparably joined to the LORD Jesus Christ, and because of our position in Him - neither can Christians lose or forfeit eternal life.

- - -

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority, in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead." (Col 2:9-12 LITV)

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection," (Rom 6:5 LITV)

"But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1Co 6:17 LITV)

"For the one that died has been justified from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:7-11 LITV)

"If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God; mind the things above, not the things on the earth, For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory." (Col 3:1-4 LITV).

 

[gr8grace3]

Why does an unbeliever have to try to imitate Jesus? Only nuts will do that. Your attempt is so diminising. Every prayer, every reading and every fellowship is done by faith and there aren't goosebumps nor th burning of hearts at all times.



Yeah that is not happening as you think always. I have seen with my own eyes of many simply sitting believers. Everything they say God has done this and God has done that and it's all grace and God looks into the hearts of people but can't see anything in their lives.

Grace-preachers great approach to pulling people into heaven but that will not work that way.



Why does an unbeliever have to go into discipline in the first place?? You argument is destroyed by simple illustration that you must not forget whatever things we do to God it's by faith and it's by belief. Supernaturals are not happeing in my prayer room or on bible-study desk. I'm doing all this by faith but always better than simply sitting grace-believers.

But Nuts/unbelievers do try, my friend. Especially self righteous religious persons.......nuts. I have seen this with my own eyes. And read it here many times.

In fact I have yet to see a grace orientated believer here that endorses "sitting" around. Yet , I have seen hundreds of posts, no, thousands of posts of NUTS trying to earn their salvation.

 

[chessman]

I'm used to the redefining of terms ..,

I know you are. For example:

, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:23,26-31 NASB emphasis in original)

And we know the author is not talking about these willfully sinning, sanctified believers still being saved despite their disowning of Christ from these passages:

Not talking about HIS PEOPLE (emphasis original) but de-saved people, huh?
"disowning" of Christ people, huh?

"...Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB)

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9 NASB)

The point being, if they still belonged to Christ they would not be subject to the wrath of God that the passage says these sanctified, but Christ denying believers will face.

The anti-OSAS point must be that Jesus' rescue and our destiny is not really a "rescue" or a "destiny' at all. What's the word... a chance?

 

[jonahmano]

Yes, Jesus is the Life. He could not stop believing in God the Father, nor could He lose or forfeit eternal life for Himself?

My point is that Christians are inseparably joined to the LORD Jesus Christ, and because of our position in Him - neither can Christians lose or forfeit eternal life.

- - -

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority, in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead." (Col 2:9-12 LITV)

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection," (Rom 6:5 LITV)

"But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1Co 6:17 LITV)

"For the one that died has been justified from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:7-11 LITV)

"If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God; mind the things above, not the things on the earth, For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory." (Col 3:1-4 LITV).

Great but remember that all these words which you quoted didn't come from simply sitting saints. Taking the totality of the bible we must not simply sit but do our best to please our God and all we do by faith and I don't know how a bible-reading or a praying believer earns any salvation himself. What is there to boast or glorify in doing something by faith???

 

[jonahmano]

But Nuts/unbelievers do try, my friend. Especially self righteous religious persons.......nuts. I have seen this with my own eyes. And read it here many times.

In fact I have yet to see a grace orientated believer here that endorses "sitting" around. Yet , I have seen hundreds of posts, no, thousands of posts of NUTS trying to earn their salvation.

Ok give me a example of nuts trying to earn their salvation by own. This is just a trick by grace-preachers to mock devoted believers. Why don't you understand that devil is working in this matter.

Live by the example of the early church. They devoted their quality time by meditating in the word and prayer and supplication and not just simply sitting and saying that God knows the hearts of all men.

 

[DRS81]

Great but remember that all these words which you quoted didn't come from simply sitting saints. Taking the totality of the bible we must not simply sit but do our best to please our God and all we do by faith and I don't know how a bible-reading or a praying believer earns any salvation himself. What is there to boast or glorify in doing something by faith???

What about sitting on your ars posting all day on a forum, where do you classify that in the kingdom of God.

 

[jonahmano]

What about sitting on your ars posting all day on a forum, where do you classify that in the kingdom of God.

All day?? Do you know what work I do? No, I don't want to boast ok. It's better you don't get personal.

 

[DRS81]

All day?? Do you know what work I do? No, I don't want to boast ok. It's better you don't get personal.

Oh ok, so you work for a sitting corporation and then come home and sit and post on a forum? That's cool.

 

[jonahmano]

Oh ok, so you work for a sitting corporation and then come home and sit and post on a forum? That's cool.

Just pm me and you will know what I do? These kind of questions shouldn't be asked here. please pm me we can have nice talk and your misunderstandings will be cleared.

 

[DRS81]

Just pm me and you will know what I do? These kind of questions shouldn't be asked here. please pm me we can have nice talk and your misunderstandings will be cleared.

ok

 

[Gregg]

Great but remember that all these words which you quoted didn't come from simply sitting saints. Taking the totality of the bible we must not simply sit but do our best to please our God and all we do by faith and I don't know how a bible-reading or a praying believer earns any salvation himself. What is there to boast or glorify in doing something by faith???

Then are you agreeing with OSAS?

 

[chessman]

Ok give me a example of nuts trying to earn their salvation by own.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest stands every day serving and offering the same sacrifices many times, which are never able to take away sins. ​