Luke 7:30 examples of those who reject the purpose of God for themselves

[brightfame52]

A,
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION means there are no conditions.
If there are no conditions, WE cannot know how to save ourself IF we wanted to be saved.
We need CONDITIONS to know what God wants of us in order to be saved.
Didn't Jesus come here to give us the good news?
Isn't the good news that He died for each one of us and we could achieve salvation by following Him?
Isn't this the reason why Jesus went to the cross? As an atonement?

Up above you perfectly described UNCONDITIONAL and ARBITRARY in what I highlighted.
And yes, IT'S NECESSARY to believe in God in order to be saved.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Verse 6 just disproved everything you said.
To please God we need faith. (someone on here says faith is a work, the opposite of what Paul taught).
HE WHO COMES TO GOD....It's possible for us to go to God. God draws, we MOVE toward Him.
John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

and again...

John 12:26
.26“If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

If anyone serves me,
IF...

It's up to each one of us to take the action of serving.

Yes, God has most certainly let us know what to do to be saved.

It's not a mystery.

God sent Christ to save sinners, therefore He fulfilled all the conditions it took to save those whom God wanted Him to save Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[atpollard]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is a How not a Why.

Let's get a second opinion ...

"There are several common misconceptions about unconditional election. First, it is important to understand that the doctrine does not teach that God’s choice is capricious or arbitrary. It is not random or made without reason. What it does teach is that God elects someone to salvation not because of something worthy God finds in that individual but because of His inscrutable, mysterious will. He makes the choice as to who will be saved for His own reasons, according to His own perfect will and for His own good pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). And while some object to the doctrine of election as being unfair, it is nevertheless based upon God’s will and it pleases God; therefore, it must be good and perfectly just." - Unconditional election - is it biblical?​

That describes WHY and not HOW.

 

[Iconoclast]

Up above you perfectly described UNCONDITIONAL and ARBITRARY in what I highlighted.

Notice here W keeps inserting this idea of arbitrary when speaking of the biblical teaching known as unconditional election. Here is a definition of arbitrary';
based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system:

To suggest that God does anything this way, is to profane the name of God itself.
It is to speak of God who is perfect in wisdom and knowledge ceasing to function as God which is an impossibility.

Now how have this clear statement of unconditional election;
5 Those of mankind that are predestinated to life,
God, before the foundation of the world was laid,
according to his eternal and immutable purpose,
and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will,
hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory,
out of his mere free grace and love,
without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( l Eph 1:4,9,11; Rom 8:30; 2Ti 1:9; 1Th 5:9; m Rom 9:13,16; Eph 2:5,12)

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory,
so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will,
foreordained all the means thereunto;
wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam,
are redeemed by Christ,
are effectually called unto faith in Christ,
by his Spirit working in due season,
are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ,
or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1Pe 1:2; 2Th 2:13; o 1Th 5:9-10; p Rom 8:30; 2Th 2:13; q 1Pe 1:5; r Joh 10:26, 17:9, 6:64)

And yes, IT'S NECESSARY to believe in God in order to be saved.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Verse 6 just disproved everything you said.

It does not disprove anything at all, it just describes the instrumenatlity that is used, ie, faith

 

[GodsGrace]

This is conditional election: God distributes His electing grace on the basis of a foreseen condition that human beings themselves meet. ​

​

Can you see it now? I even included an example in the original quote found in Post #197.
That was ME ... I created a whole TOPIC on the "U" of Tulip ... you just wanted to argue "nations vs individuals".
Sproul just defined UE with his quote.

I don't argue nations vs. individuals.
I leave Romans 9 to scholars.

CONDITIONAL GRACE:
GOD PICKS WHO WILL BE SAVED BASED ON A CONDITION OR CONDITIONS.

Doesn't that make more sense?

The words ELECTING GRACE aren't even found in the NT,,,unless you can show me.

And, we on my side, believe God would like to see EVERY MAN be saved, so He gives enough grace to each of us to enable us to see and know Him and reply to Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's get a second opinion ...

I know. You love Qot Questions.
They have an UNBIASED opinion, I'm sure.

OK. Let's run through it.

"There are several common misconceptions about unconditional election. First, it is important to understand that the doctrine does not teach that God’s choice is capricious or arbitrary.​

I guess if they say so, it must be true.
God's election is UNCONDITIONAL, based on no condition,
but it is NOT capricious or arbitrary.
Calvinism is a little like smoking dope, in my imagination.
They both must make one feel slightly dizzy.
(not sure dope does that actually - never tried).

It is not random or made without reason. What it does teach is that God elects someone to salvation not because of something worthy God finds in that individual but because of His inscrutable, mysterious will.​

OH!
It's not without reason
BUT
because of HIS INSCRUTABLE MYSTERIOUS WILL.

Well, there you have.
That sounds like a great reason to me.
Now I know exactly what I must do to be saved.

He makes the choice as to who will be saved for His own reasons, according to His own perfect will and for His own good pleasure​

Yes.
BINGO.
I stated this time and time again throught this thread (or maybe another one).

(Ephesians 1:5). And while some object to the doctrine of election as being unfair, it is nevertheless based upon God’s will and it pleases God; therefore, it must be good and perfectly just." - Unconditional election - is it biblical?​

That describes WHY and not HOW.

It must be good.
OK.
As long as John Calvin says so it must surely be correct.
Unfortunately no one else through all of church history agreed with him.

HOW one makes a choice is a HOW.

WHY one makes a choice is a WHY.

We don't KNOW WHY God makes the choice.
We only know HOW ---
the WHY is a mystery...

 

[GodsGrace]

God sent Christ to save sinners, therefore He fulfilled all the conditions it took to save those whom God wanted Him to save Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Re verse 10:
Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost.
We are all lost.
So are we all saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Notice here W keeps inserting this idea of arbitrary when speaking of the biblical teaching known as unconditional election. Here is a definition of arbitrary';
based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system:

To suggest that God does anything this way, is to profane the name of God itself.

But stating that God chooses some to be born to go to hell (unworthy vessels - I wonder what makes them UNWORHTY? Different thread)...
THAT is not profaning God?
I suppose that would be glorifying Him?

And yes, Unconditional Election means that God bases His choosing on NOTHING,
just as QotQuestions stated. You like them too, right?
They stated in the post by atpollard that God chooses for His own pleasure.
Weird pleasures the calvinist God has.

It is to speak of God who is perfect in wisdom and knowledge ceasing to function as God which is an impossibility.

Now how have this clear statement of unconditional election;
5 Those of mankind that are predestinated to life,
God, before the foundation of the world was laid,
according to his eternal and immutable purpose,
and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will,
hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory,
out of his mere free grace and love,
without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( l Eph 1:4,9,11; Rom 8:30; 2Ti 1:9; 1Th 5:9; m Rom 9:13,16; Eph 2:5,12)

Wow. Thanks for posting.
Once again my position is confirmed by some Confession or other.
Happily, the NT does not confirm what the above states.
Teachings of men...
It states what I had just typed...
God chooses by the SECRET COUNSEL and GOOD PLEASURE of His will.

But it says that God does this choosing OUT OF LOVE.
What Love?
Paul was willing to giver his life for his brethren in Romans ...
He loved the Jews more than God did?
God is willing to send billions to hell...
FOR NO REASON at all - arbitrarily.

Romans 9:1-3
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory,
so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will,
foreordained all the means thereunto;
wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam,
are redeemed by Christ,
are effectually called unto faith in Christ,
by his Spirit working in due season,
are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ,
or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1Pe 1:2; 2Th 2:13; o 1Th 5:9-10; p Rom 8:30; 2Th 2:13; q 1Pe 1:5; r Joh 10:26, 17:9, 6:64)


It does not disprove anything at all, it just describes the instrumenatlity that is used, ie, faith

Could you post some verses that use the phrase EFFECTUALLY CALLED?
Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

Re verse 10:
Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost.
We are all lost.
So are we all saved?

He only came to seek and save the seed of Abraham Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Christ only Identified with the children or seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The rest of mankind is lost, so quite naturally He didn't come to seek and to save them, DUH

 

[GodsGrace]

He only came to seek and save the seed of Abraham Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Christ only Identified with the children or seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The rest of mankind is lost, so quite naturally He didn't come to seek and to save them, DUH

Who is the seed of Abraham?

 

[brightfame52]

Who is the seed of Abraham?

The elect

 

[GodsGrace]

He only came to seek and save the seed of Abraham Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Christ only Identified with the children or seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The rest of mankind is lost, so quite naturally He didn't come to seek and to save them, DUH

And does this mean that only the seed of Abraham was lost so Jesus came to save it?

 

[GodsGrace]

The elect

So everyone that comes from Abraham is the chosen by God?

And all the rest of humanity is lost?

 

[brightfame52]

And does this mean that only the seed of Abraham was lost so Jesus came to save it?

The seed of Abraham is now no longer lost because Jesus saved them. Those who are lost they will remain Lost, Jesus didnt come to seek and to save them.

 

[GodsGrace]

The seed of Abraham is now no longer lost because Jesus saved them. Those who are lost they will remain Lost, Jesus didnt come to seek and to save them.

I don't know what you're talking about B,
Are you saying the Jews are the seed of God and that no one else could be saved?

I never heard of this...

 

[atpollard]

They stated in the post by @atpollard that God chooses for His own pleasure.
Weird pleasures the calvinist God has.

That was a direct quote from scripture.
Are you saying the Calvinist God is the God of scripture … but YOUR GOD IS NOT?

Ephesians 1:3-6 [NKJV]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

 

[atpollard]

As long as John Calvin says so it must surely be correct.

John Calvin did not write the Book of Ephesians, the Apostle Paul did.
So, YES, as long as GOD inspired Paul to write Ephesians 1:5, it MUST be correct.
John Calvin and I merely acknowledge that truth.
Deny it if you wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

That was a direct quote from scripture. Are you saying the Calvinist God is the God of scripture … but NOT YOUR GOD?

Ephesians 1:3-6 [NKJV] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

"The good pleasure of His will" is in all the Calvinist stuff I read.

Checking:

I use the NASB and it says:
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

However, yes, many bibles have "the good pleasure of His will".

The predestination was not as to WHO, as usual, but as to How...
God predestined that we should be, through Jesus Christ, adopted as sons of His.

He predestined US, those that are saved,
to be adopted as sons
through Jesus.

It all goes back to God's plan from Genesis 3:15
A plan that was before time.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Calvin did not write the Book of Ephesians, the Apostle Paul did.
So, YES, as long as GOD inspired Paul to write Ephesians 1:5, it MUST be correct.
John Calvin and I merely acknowledge that truth.
Deny it if you wish.

Nothing to deny.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Calvin did not write the Book of Ephesians, the Apostle Paul did.
So, YES, as long as GOD inspired Paul to write Ephesians 1:5, it MUST be correct.
John Calvin and I merely acknowledge that truth.
Deny it if you wish.

I hope you read all my posts, even the ones to which there's no reply.
I might have to become calvinist one day. Who knows.
Let's see if you agree with me:
The Evangelical churches,
The Catholic Church,
and the reformed churches
are the only ones not going woke on us.

What's the Church of England?
It's gone.
Some Anglicans are holding tight.
Not all.

'night.

PS
the overseer is telling me about Abraham's seed.
they're the only ones saved.
I don't really know about this and he's not really
explaining it. John Calvin talks about this in one
of his Institute books. I have no intention of finding
out about this. Just can't. But if you could tell me
quick, in 25 words or less, otherwise no.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't know what you're talking about B,
Are you saying the Jews are the seed of God and that no one else could be saved?

I never heard of this...

No. The seed of Abraham belongs to Christ, People of different ethnic groups Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.