Luke 8:13 - unpacked

[JLB]

It's always sad to know people who cease to believe the gospel.


The point of 8:12 is that the first soil never believed.


But the devil didn't steal away any belief from anyone hearts. He stole the gospel message, which is different. And Jesus said nothing about the devil after the first soil. It was life's trials and testing that caused the second soil to lose their faith.


That is not a condition for being saved. In Romans, those who have been given eternal life keep it because that gift from God is irrevocable.


No, Jesus never said anything about the devil taking anything away from those who believe. His point was that life's circumstances can cause people to quit believing.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

Here is my scripture as to the future of the unbelieving -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8




JLB

 

[Butch5]

Luke 8:13 - “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. NASB

There has been much discussion of what Jesus meant in this verse. Some believe that the meaning of "fall away" means to fall away from salvation. The rationale being that they believed for a while, and therefore, are only saved for a while. The point being that one is saved only as long as one continues to believe.

However, others (including me) believe that "falling away" refers to "for a while". IOW, Jesus is just noting some who believe, and are therefore saved, but because of testing/temptation, they fail to continue to believe. Therefore, they only believe for a while, or, they "fall away" from their faith.

So, which view is correct? The only way to determine what "fall away" means is to look at the Greek word and its meaning.

The Greek word for "fall away" is a single word, "aphistemi". Here are the various ways it can be translated:
induce to revolt, withdraw, to desist or refrain from, to make defection, fall away, apostatize, to abstain from.

The form found in Luke 8:13 is a present tense, middle voice. The middle voice is instructive, and indicates that the action of the verb (fall away) is produced by the subject on the subject.

For more information on the voice, see http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdf.

Further, my Greek lexicon indicates that specifically in Luke 8:13, it carries the meaning of "to make defection, fall away, or apostatize".

These meanings eliminates any sense that "fall away" means to lose salvation. First, we all know that humans don't produce our own salvation. And the middle voice shows that it is we ourselves who do the falling away.

So, if falling away were to refer to loss of salvation, as some claim, then that would indicate that we participate in our own salvation, which is contradicted completely by Paul in two passages: Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

IOW, we cannot save ourselves, nor can we "un"-save ourselves.

So, the meaning of "fall away" in Luke 8:13 indicates that one simply ceases to believe. Without any indication of loss of salvation.

Please note that there are no verses anywhere in Scripture that tells us that one can lose salvation. None of the "warning verses" says so either. Those verses do warn believers, but it is not about loss of salvation.

So, the conclusion is saved unbelievers, correct?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

Here is my scripture as to the future of the unbelieving -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8




JLB

I can't find where it says "then they have returned to being an unbeliever".
Where is that?

 

[gr8grace3]

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Can you provide a scripture that says a believer has returned to being a unbeliever?

 

[JLB]

Can you provide a scripture that says a believer has returned to being a unbeliever?

I can't find where it says "then they have returned to being an unbeliever".
Where is that?

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is an unbeliever... They were a believer, then they turned from believing and returned to unbelief.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

Here is my scripture as to the future of the unbelieving -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


Hebrews says it this way -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is an unbeliever... They were a believer, then they turned from believing and returned to unbelief.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

Here is my scripture as to the future of the unbelieving -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


Hebrews says it this way -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

JLB

Specifically, where are they called an unbeliever?

 

[JLB]

Specifically, where are they called an unbeliever?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12

to fall away, become faithless.

In both these scriptures the warning is the same as the same Greek word is used for depart and fall away.

Depart - Strong's Number: 868 - Aphistemi
Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

A person goes from a state of unbelief, to believing the Gospel Message of Salvation through believing in Jesus Christ.

They are now believers... for a while, because they departed from believing in Jesus Christ.

They no longer believe.

They returned to a state of unbelief because the no longer believe.

What would you call a person who no longer believes?

A believer or an unbeliever?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Jesus said this. The devil will try to steal your faith from you.

No, Jesus never said that. He prayed for Simon that his faith would not fail. He said nothing about the devil trying to steal it away. In fact, He told Simon that Satan had asked to "sift" him as wheat. What do you suppose that means?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

This is getting kinda tired. Think about it for a sec. When one believes, everything changes: they are given the RIGHT to being children of God. They are born again, or regenerated, given a new nature. They are forgiven, they are given eternal life, which is irrevocable, though you REFUSE to acknowledge what the Bible says about God's gifts.

Where in Scripture are any of these things said to be returned or taken back? If your view were correct, there would be some verses to support your assumptions. But there are NO verses to support your assumptions.

In fact, there are verses that REFUTE your assumptions soundly.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

The Bible uses the term "unbeliever" ONLY for those who have never believed. But you won't acknowledge that.

Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Since you aren't listening to and accepting these Scriptures, there is no way anyone can reason with you.

Here is my scripture as to the future of the unbelieving -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

Yes, those who have never believed will go to the lake of fire. Why? Because Rev 20:15 indicates that anyone who isn't written into the "book of life" will be cast into the lake of fire. How does one get their name into the book of life? By believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life. And all who believe that receive eternal life. Which is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

So, you still have not proven your assumptions. In fact, they have been refuted by the clear words of Scripture, which for some reason, you continue to reject.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why.

 

[FreeGrace]

So, the conclusion is saved unbelievers, correct?

Nope. When one believes, they become a "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17. Please show me anywhere in Scripture where a "new creation" can or does revert back to just being an "old creation". If you can do that, you will have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Instead of OSAS, let's consider this:

Once a child of God (Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26), ALWAYS a child of God. OaCoGAaCoG or OCGACG

Unless you can show me a verse that says a child of God can be revoked, returned, nullified, etc, you have no point.

I think the main problem with the anti-eternal security folk is the erroneous way they think of salvation. Kinda like a coin or some object that can slip through a hole in your pocket.

But, the changes that occur when one believes CANNOT be rescinded. Because there are NO verses that teach such an inaccurate thing.

One who believes "for a while" is simply a child of God who has become disobedient. And the Bible says quite a lot about disobedient children and what God has in store for them. Not a pretty sight. But NOT loss of salvation.

Such a simple idea: loss of salvation. So how come there are NO verses that clearly warn that salvation specifically can be lost? Because eternal life is irrevocable.

Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29 nails the truth.

 

[JLB]

they are given the RIGHT to being children of God.

No sir!

That's not what the scripture says.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:12

The who believe have the right to BECOME sons of God.

So, you still have not proven your assumptions. In fact, they have been refuted by the clear words of Scripture, which for some reason, you continue to reject.

Since you only post your opinion and do not actual post scripture, but only a scripture reference with the words of the actual scripture changed to fit your opinion, like the example above which says...

they are given the RIGHT to being children of God.

When the actual scripture states they have been given the right to become children of God. 2


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is getting kinda tired. Think about it for a sec. When one believes, everything changes: they are given the RIGHT to being children of God. They are born again, or regenerated, given a new nature. They are forgiven, they are given eternal life, which is irrevocable, though you REFUSE to acknowledge what the Bible says about God's gifts.

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is an unbeliever... They were a believer, then they turned from believing and returned to unbelief.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

Unless you can provide a scripture that says UNBELIEVERS are saved, then you have been refuted completely and totally.

The burden is now on you to prove that unbelievers will be saved.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is an unbeliever... They were a believer, then they turned from believing and returned to unbelief.

Ah, yes. More assumption. Jesus never called them unbelievers, as you do. He simply noted why they only believed for a while.

It amazes me that some simply refuse to acknowledge that the Bible uses the word 'unbeliever' only in the sense of one who has never believed. There are NO examples of anyone who has believed once and then quit believing being called an unbeliever.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Here's your problem: when one believes, there are huge changes.
1. they become a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17
2. they are given the gift of eternal life, which is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29
3. they are born again, or regenerated. Jn 1:7, 1 Pet 1:3
4. they are declared righteous. Rom 3:20 NIV

Can you provide any verses that reverses these changes? Of course not.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

There are many such verses. And none of them teach that those who have believed revert back to unbelievers if they no longer believe.

Please attempt to provide anyv erses that reverses the HUGE changes that I have listed.

Here is my scripture as to the future of the unbelieving -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

Yep. All who have never believed will be cast into the lake of fire. We know from Rev 20:15 that those who never received eternal life don't have their names in the book of life, which is the basis for being cast into the lake of fire.

However, since eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, AND, God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29, your view has no Scriptural basis.

 

[JLB]

Ah, yes. More assumption. Jesus never called them unbelievers, as you do. He simply noted why they only believed for a while.

A person who no longer believes is an unbeliever.

Those who believe to end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"they are given the RIGHT to being children of God."

No sir!

That's not what the scripture says.

Excuse me??!!! That is what it says.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:12

The who believe have the right to BECOME sons of God.

Oh, I see. Choking on a word again. Are you actually suggesting that WHEN one believes, they aren't YET a child of God? So, please explain WHEN that actually happens, if not at the moment of belief.

What do you do with Gal 3:26 then? For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. NASB

Real clear. We ARE sons of God THROUGH faith in Christ. We BECOME sons of God WHEN we BELIEVE.

Since you only post your opinion and do not actual post scripture, but only a scripture reference with the words of the actual scripture changed to fit your opinion, like the example above which says…

I've given direct Scripture, so your claim here is totally untrue. Gal 3:26 directly refutes your assumptions.

When the actual scripture states they have been given the right to become children of God. 2
JLB

OK. Exegete Gal 3:26 then. That verse directly supports my view and refutes yours.

 

[FreeGrace]

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is an unbeliever…

No, they are a child of God. Gal 3:26 says that we ARE the sons of God THROUGH FAITH in Christ.

Only if you have a verse that teaches that a son of God loses his sonship would you have a point. But you don't have a verse to support your point, so you don't have a point.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?

There are many. But your unreasonable attitude about how the Bible uses the word "unbeliever" prevents any meaningful discussion. An unbeliever is one who NEVER believed. And all of them will go to hell. Why? Because they never received the free gift of God, which is eternal life, which is irrevocable.

And you've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.

The burden is now on you to prove that unbelievers will be saved.JLB

And you've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.

I've supported my view with Scripture that SAYS what I believe. You've not done that. Not even close.

And you've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.

 

[JLB]

Oh, I see. Choking on a word again. Are you actually suggesting that WHEN one believes, they aren't YET a child of God? So, please explain WHEN that actually happens, if not at the moment of belief.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 1:12

 

[JLB]

No, they are a child of God. Gal 3:26 says that we ARE the sons of God THROUGH FAITH in Christ.

Only if you have a verse that teaches that a son of God loses his sonship would you have a point. But you don't have a verse to support your point, so you don't have a point.


There are many. But your unreasonable attitude about how the Bible uses the word "unbeliever" prevents any meaningful discussion. An unbeliever is one who NEVER believed. And all of them will go to hell. Why? Because they never received the free gift of God, which is eternal life, which is irrevocable.

And you've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.


And you've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.

I've supported my view with Scripture that SAYS what I believe. You've not done that. Not even close.

And you've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.

Until you can provide a scripture that says unbelievers, or non believers, or former believers are saved, then there is nothing left to discuss.

Here is Luke 8:13 unpacked:

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

believe for a while = saved for awhile.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12

to fall away, become faithless.

In both these scriptures the warning is the same as the same Greek word is used for depart and fall away.

Depart - Strong's Number: 868 - Aphistemi
Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

A person goes from a state of unbelief, to believing the Gospel Message of Salvation through believing in Jesus Christ.

They are now believers... for a while, because they departed from believing in Jesus Christ.

They no longer believe.

They returned to a state of unbelief because the no longer believe.

What would you call a person who no longer believes?

A believer or an unbeliever?


JLB

Apostate. Ezekiel 16 gives us a great example of how evil,bad,horrific Apostates can be.
They didn't believe anymore. In fact,they despised the oath.
They sacrificed their children to gods.Some in fire.
They set up prostitution rings.
They built idols
They built shrines
They were wicked
They were bribing people
They were Liars
They were proud
They were arrogant
They had divine discipline.

Then God Said this:
Eze 16:60~~60“Nevertheless(I like to say it slow,never........the........less), I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
63so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done,” the Lord GOD declares.

 

[FreeGrace]

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 1:12

How comes you completely ignored Gal 3:26? "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

I asked when one becomes a son of God, if not when then believe. And you have ignored my question. Is is that you just don't know when, or would rather not answer the question?

And Gal 3:26 makes it very clear as to WHEN. When one believes. So my point stands.

Please show me that God will send any of His children to the lake of Fire. Since that must be your logical conclusion of those of His children that become disobedient or faithless.