I didn't "miss" the simple teaching on being weak in the faith pertaining to liberty. There are MANY ways a man can be considered "weak" in the faith. Read "Pilgrim's Progress" for examples. There is one character (his name escapes me right now) who makes it all the way to the Celestial City but doubts he'll really make it all the way there. He is an example of "weak faith". There are MANY books (especially by the Puritans) that deal with sicknesses of the soul----melancholy, depression, etc. "A Lifting up for the Downcast" by William Bridge for example. There is a HUGE difference between a "weak" Christian and a "Lukewarm" Christian. I'm not really sure why you want to argue with every post made on the board--but it appears you do for some reason. I just shared a short paragraph about how one could be "weak" in the faith by doubting, etc. All of us are "weak" at the beginning, and also at times through our Christian walks. That doesn't mean we are "lukewarm"---we can be deeply sincere and committed but just not have the assurance others have--but that weakness WILL be strengthened as we follow on to know the Lord.
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https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Lukewarm believers and faith
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
NewLifeInChrist
Member
Ok, you say there are true Christian saints and true Christian sinners. That means you think there are some Christians who have no faults. But it appears that you think some of them could develop into true Christian sinners. If so, let's talk about how that happens.
Would you say the following passage in James describes how it may happen?
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Jas 1:12–15)
Tenchi
Member
Revelation 3:15-19
15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
The Spirit mentions two things in these verses: the deeds of the Laodicean believers ("your deeds") and the believers themselves ("you are lukewarm"). It seems obvious to me that the external deeds of the Laodiceans simply manifested the inner lukewarmness of their hearts toward God. And so, it is the doers of the deeds who are criticized in these verses, not their deeds; it is the Laodiceans themselves whom God would "spit out of His mouth," not their tepid deeds. Is God, then, primarily occupied with the external manifestation of the inner condition of the Laodiceans, judging them by what they do? Not really.
1 Samuel 16:7
7 ...For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.”
John 7:24
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
But the Spirit doesn't condemn the faith of the Laodiceans, specifically, only the tepidity of their hearts toward God. They were made apathetic toward Him (Revelation 3:17) and spiritually blind (Revelation 3:18b) by affluence, the Spirit pointed out, but no comment is made particularly about the character of the faith of the Laodiceans.
Anyway, you seem to just assert out of thin air what you do in the quotation above. The Spirit doesn't say in Revelation 3:15-16 that the Laodiceans works were somehow spiritually/morally neutral (i.e. lukewarm, "neither good nor evil") only that the Laodiceans were lukewarm. If you look at Revelation 3:15, the Spirit actually says nothing specifically about the Laodiceans's deeds except that he knows them.
And the Spirit didn't say that the lukewarmness of the Laodiceans meant they "did both good and evil things." His only explanation of what is meant by "lukewarmness" is a state of complacency born of material wealth and spiritual blindness:
Revelation 3:17-18
17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
I'm not clear, then, on how you're getting the stuff about the Laodicean's faith and the nature of their deeds.
But you've misquoted Genesis 3:5 here, replacing "knowing good and evil" with "doing both good and evil." The devil didn't say that, having eaten of the Forbidden Fruit, Eve would know she is doing both good and evil, but only that she would be able to distinguish good and evil, as God could do. His temptation to Eve was equality with God, not awareness of contradictory moral behavior. So, I'm not following your reasoning in the quotation above.
Well, is this what the Spirit said to the church at Laodicea? Did the Spirit say "get hot, repent and only do good"?
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
The Spirit said to the lukewarm Laodiceans, "Buy refined gold, white garments and eye salve from me so that you're rich, clothed and able to see." So, I'm not understanding how this coincides with your statement in the quotation above. What is the "gold refined by fire" and the "white garments" and the "eye salve"? How do the Laodiceans "buy" these things from the Holy Spirit?
Okay, but this isn't found in the verses from Revelation 3 addressing the lukewarm Laodiceans.
But the Spirit doesn't say this to the Laodicean believers. He locates the means of change for the Laodiceans in himself, not in their ability to "get hot."
Tenchi--- thanks for your post. You make many valuable points. I wanted to share that what has always amazed me about Jesus' address to the Laodiceans is his GREAT LOVE for them despite their lukewarmness:
"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” (Rev. 3: 19-21)
"To those whom I LOVE I rebuke and chasten. So be earnest and repent." Then, despite how far they had strayed (he's literally standing OUTSIDE THE CHURCH and knocking) he is lovingly calling them to answer his knock and open the door.
Then, the most amazing thing of all-----to this greatest failure of a church he offers the greatest promise of all: "He who is victorious I will give the right to sit with me on my throne"!!! Despite how far they had fallen in their lukewarmness, he is still saying that if they truly turn and repent they can still have the greatest reward!!
I am in no way saying it pays off to become lukewarm. Because he also warns he is about to "spew them out of his mouth". But I think we need to see in this how GREATLY JESUS LOVES HIS PEOPLE. He isn't threatening them any where near how much he is PROMISING THEM GREAT BLESSINGS if they RETURN to him. Even in this church which displeases him for their lukewarmness, we see his endearing love for His people, and his desire to bless them, not punish them. I just wanted to share that because it has always blessed me to consider this.
Tenchi
Member
Amen. And to what is Jesus inviting those who open the door to him? Fellowship with himself (2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3). He will "sup" with any who open the door, which carries the idea of direct, personal, intimate interaction. So, I do agree wholeheartedly that the words of the Spirit to the Laodicean church are filled with love. But the words aren't merely loving, expressing the character and attitude of the God who is love toward the Laodiceans, but calling them into personal communion with Himself.
Too often, Christians point at the lukewarmness of the Laodicean believers and think their spiritual poverty, nakedness and blindness constituted their Big Problem. But these are simply the effects of the absence of fellowship with God. Had they been daily "supping" with the Savior, enjoying life in the Spirit all throughout each day, they would not have become tepid in their hearts toward God. Such a thing is impossible when one truly enjoys fellowship with God. This is, I think, the chief message of the Spirit to the church of Laodicea.
But you are right: There is enormous love expressed in the call of the Spirit to the complacent Laodiceans to renewed fellowship with Christ.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Which is the only Scriptural teaching of faith in Christ being weak.
There are many ways people may want to teach weak faith, but there is only one way by Scripture of Christ: Having a newborn weak conscience in liberty of the law.
Some want to teach dead faith, as just being weak in one's faith. The same for being unrighteous in deeds, as just being weak in one's walk.
The only book I teach the doctrine of Christ from, is the Bible.
Going through troubles and turmoil is part of trials of faith, not weakness.
2Ti 2:3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
The example of doubting if saved or not, is not weak faith but rather the dead faith of corrupt living, trying to convince oneself of still being saved.
It's not beleiving in Jesus Christ to please God at all times, but only beleiving in being saved by Jesus Christ.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is to repent of sinning, to have faith toward God unto His righteousness.
Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
It's not he gospel of repenting of unbelief to have faith toward God's salvation, that some Christians preach.
True. The newborn son of God can have a weak conscience about the liberty of His law, while keeping His commandments blameless with a good conscience.
The lukewarm Christians may have plenty of faith in their religion, but in works they are rejected of the Lord.
Tit 1:16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him,
2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences
Just a matter of doctrinal accuracy. Nothing personal.
Too many Christians apparently insist on judging every Christian to be like themselves.
If our walking at any time includes darkness, then our faith is dead in sin and trespass, not weak.
Newborn babes in Christ begin with pure hearts walking in the light, and not in darkness at all.
New converts to religion begin with committment to only sin less.
Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Weakness in liberty can be strengthend with knowledge of Scripture.
Deadness in works never knows the Lord, nor follows in His steps.
1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
By repenting of dead works once for Jesus' sake, that darkness of sinning will be wholly done away at once by the true light of Christ.
1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
I don't normally speak of 'true' Christians, but only Christians. But if someone want to talk about 'true' Christians, then I'll accomodate.
Scripture preaches Christian saints. Sinners preach Christian sinners.
Scripture says there are, therefore I teach there are.
Jde 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
It's not about what we think, but about what God says. The problem is some Christians teach what they want to think, rather than only what God says.
The only ones developing into Christian sinners, are unrepented or half-repented sinners, that develope into a form of Christian religion.
2Ti 3:4...lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
They want the grace of God to save from punishment, but not the power of God to save from sinning.
Mat 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Only them repenting of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, are born again into His pure religion on earth:
2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Being a faultless new creature in Christ Jesus, begins with repentance from sin for His mercy's sake.
Being a faultless creature in Christ Jesus continues with enduring trials of faith without falling to temptations.
2Pe 1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Ensuring we continue faultless in His presence, is only by adding to faith things necessary not to fail and fall before the devil.
1 Cor 9: 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The race of eternal life in Christ Jesus is a whole new clean start, with a wholly clean finish.
Relgion of Christian sinners is a new leaf turned over to sin less than before, but still finishing the same old leaf of lust.
Hosea{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.
Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
NewLifeInChrist
Member
LOL, you're the one who brought up the topic... see bolded content above.
NewLifeInChrist
Member
So am I reading you right that those who you previously characterized as "true Christian sinners" are not truly Christians because if they were truly Christians they would not sin?
"The example of doubting if saved or not, is not weak faith but rather the dead faith of corrupt living, trying to convince oneself of still being saved."
Lol-----you are very SELF confident in your Christian faith. Why do you suppose we are told to "put on the whole armour of God?" and to use the shield of faith to quench the "fiery darts" of the enemy? What are those "fiery darts"? They are attempts by Satan to shake our faith. Perhaps you have never been attacked by the enemy with doubts and injected mental discouragements. But they are actually very common to all Christians:
"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings". (1 Peter 5: 8,9)
The reason I gave the example of "Pilgrims Progress" and the character "LITTLE FAITH" is because that book is deeply beloved by Christians the world over, and it's characters are based on Biblical teachings. The character "Little Faith" is an example of a "weak" Christian. No----not a christian of "dead faith of corrupt living" as you state above. Little Faith is constantly afraid he might not make it to the Celestial City-he is plagued by doubts. But---in the end he makes it to the Celestial City anyway. There are MANY Christians who are attacked by the Enemy and they begin to believe they are guilty of unpardonable sins, or they have "fallen away" as Hebrews 6 teaches when nothing could be further from the truth. They are simply "weak"---they are not guilty of "corrupt living, trying to convince oneself of still being saved" as you state.
John Bunyan, the great Puritan who wrote "Pilgrim's Progress" also wrote a book called "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners". In that book he gives his testimony of how when he was "weak" and new as a Christian the enemy convinced him he had committed the Unpardonable Sin. He explains his deep struggle of conscience. He was not "worldly" or guilty of "corrupt living"---he was deeply sincere---but "weak" in that he hadn't learned how to use the whole armour of God yet. He was a "weak" Christian, not a "lukewarm" one.
If you don't believe anyone can go through a period of "weakness" and still be a sincere and dedicated Christian you have a LOT TO LEARN.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
The Scripture confirms Jesus' words, that we are known by our works.
Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
It's not just bad works spit out from His body, but the evil doer with their deeds.
The Scripture at the same time disproves that only the bad deeds are spit out and burned, but the person is saved.
Of course.
James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Salvation is from dead works, by which man dies to God and Christ.
Faith is dead that continues with dead works, and salvation with sin is vanity, that ends in the grave.
By transgression man falls. There is no rising with transgression.
New Age Christianity is calling oneself divine and son of God inwardly, where what they does not really matter.
God looks past the appearance of righteousness, to see the heart within, whether pure or defiled.
Neither God nor man needs look beyond the unrighteousness, to know the corrupt heart within.
Mat 23:25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
People can be outwardly righteous with corrupt hearts, but no man can be inwardly clean with outward unrighteous.
That's the delusion of inward righteous by faith alone, while doing bad works.
Don't judge others by our own rules, but only by the law of Christ and His righteousness.
No. They're just spit out from the body out of hand.
Neither their deeds nor faith are kept in the body of Christ.
The works, faith, and character are spit out with the person.
Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a condition involving a split personality or multiple personalities. This means you have two or more unique identities...
Christ preaches one person known by works. Faith and character included.
Jesus knows the person by the deeds, and judges the person by the deeds. He cannot know the deeds of the person, but not the person.
Only the wilfully blind of the world know the deeds of the person, but thinks differently of the person.
Split personality disorder is judging a person differently than their deeds. Some call it spousal abuse disorder. Or, perhaps blind mother syndrome.
Some Christians call it justified by faith alone, with good and evil works...from time to time...
RBDERRICK
Supporter
True. But the doctrine of Christ is by all Scripture. Since God only judges works as good or evil, then lukewarm works are doing both good and evil.
It's condemned in Scripture as having a double heart and mind.
Is a judgment of works born of material success.
Rev 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Repent of the dead works, not the material success. If anything prevents repentance from dead works, then cut it off, if necessary, that we may repent.
Mat 5:29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
It is still the lukewarm works that must be repented of.
Doing evil is the temptation to know both good and evil. To eat the forbidden fruit, and know what it is.
With God, knowing is by doing, whether to know a man or woman, or to know good or evil.
Doctrine of Christ is by all Scripture together.
Gen 3:4 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The serpent promised the truth of what God knows, that by doing good and evil, man knows both good and evil, as gods on earth.
The subtlety of the serpent is to combine truth with lies, to mix good and evil.
Which was the lie. God doesn't do good and evil.
The temptation is to act as gods in our own right, and be equal with the gods that are not gods. Which was to do as Lucifer and the angels that sinned, by choosing to disobey God instead of love Him.
The spirit of error says be hot, repent, and do both good and evil. Which is not hot, but lukewarm.
The religious can think they are hot enough by doing less evil than before, but they are lukewarm to the Lord, knowing their works are both good and evil, rather than all cold as before.
Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Hosea{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.
The Laodiceans were succesful Christians trusting in their faith alone, to justify them with Christ, while preaching a measure of repentance for a successful show among the churches of God.
Rev 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
The wages of sin is death, and the gift of repentance is eternal life.
Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
James{1:21} Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
The coomandment of God unto life, is from all sins and trespasses, not just some in half-hearted lameness to God.
Anything short of whole hearted unconditional surrender to the risen Lord and Victor Jesus Christ, is spued out as just so much more religious pap of sinful man.
It's found in the verses of the Bible, and confirmed in Rev 3.
The doctrine of Christ is taught by all Scripture.
There is no change in Christ without change in works. Jesus knows us by our works.
Jesus doesn't repent for us. We must repent for His sake.
He grants mercy and life with our repentance, without which we cannot be forgiven of old repented sins.
"hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord". (1 Cor. 5:5). This verse seems to disprove many of your points above about both the person and his deeds being spit out. This verse (1 Cor. 5:5) says that God is doing this so the person will be saved on the day of the Lord.
RevSRE
Supporter
The difference is in "I do not know" new or weak in faith from not having learned all we need to know.
OR ..... "I do not CARE", obeying God and keeping commandments just is not important to me anymore.
RevSRE
Supporter
At some point we may need to back up and start at the beginning. We may need to reevaluate our beliefs and try to separate the Truth and Fact from the illustrations and Traditions we were taught. There is a false teaching, it is the Counterfeit of Satan. It is real. We must not follow its teaching.
We will work to separate other religions and traditions from the true Gospel. We need to know What does Saved by Grace mean. So let us go back to the beginning and review just what the scripture says.
1.The Self-existent Most High God; The majesty of Holiness and Grace is absolute GOOD. Any disobedience or turning from God is Evil that leads to sin. Sin is the result of disobeying God not the reason for it.
You cannot be Lukewarm and be true to GOD!
2. God made mankind because HE WANTED TOO. He needs no other reason.
A. People were made in the image of God for fellowship.
They had to be enough like God to truly know and fellowship with Him.
B. The relation between God and Man is Fellowship Not Grace,
Grace came later to solve a problem and restore fellowship.
C. Original SIN was a CHOICE to disobey God,
Satan and Adam made the choice to disobey God.
D. The result of this disobedience was SEPARATION FROM GOD.
E. God is absolute GOOD to turn from God in any way is EVIL.
3. There are now and always have been TWO ways a person may travel.
a. Turn to God, See and Know His Goodness and Grace.
b. Choose to disobey God and live as the world allows.
4. Paul encourages the Christians in Rome to grow in their patterns of obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit, for he says, “If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Rom. 8:13). He also promises them, “Sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace” (6:14). John promises his readers that if they confess their sins to God, he will not only forgive their sins, but also will work inwardly in them to “cleanse” them from sin. John says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Therefore, we should be encouraged in our attempts to live each day in obedience to God’s moral teachings in his Word. He promises us not only moral guidance and direction, but also the spiritual and moral ability to increasingly follow those directions. We will never do so perfectly in this life, but it should encourage us greatly that he promises this inward moral strength and inward work in our hearts. W. Grudem, Christian Ethics. Kindle edition page 145.
The BLOOD Sacrifice was given to Adam and Eve as a second chance to obey GOD. They could make the sacrifice in remembrance of obeying God looking forward to the Promise God made of a coming savior. G3:15
People are saved by Grace, people have always been saved by Grace, The Blood sacrifices only looked forward to Christ, The Law POINTS OUT WHAT SIN IS, it never had the power to save anyone.
When bible teachers misread or blend ancient philosophy and religion with what they think the bible says, or their theology requires, they come to a teaching like “all matter is evil”.
They are very possibly led by Satan to teach error.
The problem is how could the Self-existent Holy God create Evil? How Could the Holy Son of God be born of evil flesh? The answer to both questions is “the premise is wrong.”
God did not create evil and all flesh is not material evil.
There are some ideas that are basic to logic. If there is good the absence of good is evil. There is a level of thought that comes from elemental concepts. God cannot be evil. The very meaning of evil is an elemental opposite of God. To say this another way some ideas are so basic they are the foundation of the discussion. Elemental Ideas are so basic they come from the character and nature of God Himself and were not created by God they ARE the basis of the discussion. Words and ideas have meaning, elemental ideas come from the foundation of reality, and they just are. God is Holy, Love, Good. Did God create Holiness, Good, Love, Mercy, Justice? No, they are the attributes that describe God. The Opposite exist because opposite is elemental to the Idea, unholy, hate, evil. From the idea God could not create evil came the many other ideas trying to explain how evil or sin came to be.
It is simple,
To Disobey GOD is EVIL that results in SIN. Satan and man made a choice to disobey God.
God did not create evil or sin, Evil is the opposite of God IS A CHOICE! A Choice God gave people the ability and right to make. It is this choice that separates people from God.
When God gave Adam and Eve the right and ability to choose to have fellowship with Him or Not, it was not a new idea. The angels of heaven had already done that. So, it may not be so strange that God gave humans the ability to choose to obey Him or Not. He wanted a creature that could, had the right too and would choose to love and fellowship with Him. All the choices we make and all of the “good” and “Bad” we may do is a free choice God created us able to make.
Here I find the most terrifying truth I have read in the Bible.
God gave us the ability and right to make our own choices, (think about this), God will honor those choices! Even if it means we reject Him.
Hell (eternal separation from God) is the clear truth that God will honor every choice.
What is a picture of Good and Evil?
Adam in the garden fellowshipped daily with God. “They walked in the garden in the Cool of the day”. God taught Adam all the things he needed to know.
Adam knew the GOODNESS OF GOD.
Then Adam DISOBEYED GOD and the fellowship was broken, Blood had to be shed, Adam was put from the garden so he could not eat of the tree of life. He had to work hard and till the ground by the sweat of his face to eat. He was apart from God.
He knew what evil meant, “To disobey God” the opposite of Good.
DIE, what did the word mean in this verse? As is true of most Hebrew words this one carries a wide array of meaning, from a separation of service, fellowship, loyalty, and life all the way to simple DEATH, (but even death is the separation of the Body and its animal life, the Soul). The roots of the word, the pictograph, is a picture of water representing chaos, and a picture of two crossed sticks representing a mark or sign. Combined these mean "chaos mark", a separation or ending. The text says “dying you die” which is an idiom meaning surely it will happen. It is saying The length of time that something exists and ends will truly happen. Yes, it is used of the ending of a physical life the separation of the Body and animal life, but it also means much more.
Chaos Mark, the point something separated, example the body and Soul (as animal life) But the example is not the only usage there are many ways of separation, the one intended here is the separation of people in Adam and Eve from God. Dying you Die, is a statement of emphasis that the Separation Will happen.
There is a lot of theology in the definition of this word as used in Gen 2. The theology teaches that man is dead to the ability to know God and that is simply NOT what it means,
It is said that this means DEATH as in separated from life and existence, this is also not what it means.
There are some that take this point to the extreme of saying it means Mankind is so “DEAD” that they have no ability or will to know God, it does not mean that either,
THE CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS.
Consider, Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
[note an important idea here. This thought is abruptly dropped. The idea of humans eating of the “Tree of life” while SEPARATE from God and living forever in that state was more than even God would contemplate.
Hell and the eternal lake of fire is called Death,
Eternal separation from God]
It would seem to me, If God said man is become as one of us to know good and Evil, it also stands that man has knowledge of God and good vs Evil. The blood sacrifice was a mediatorial substitute that allowed Adam and Eve and their prodigy to be restored to fellowship with God as LONG AS THEY OBEYED!
What are we “Saved From?
Eternal separation from God!”
We will work to separate other religions and traditions from the true Gospel. We need to know What does Saved by Grace mean. So let us go back to the beginning and review just what the scripture says.
1.The Self-existent Most High God; The majesty of Holiness and Grace is absolute GOOD. Any disobedience or turning from God is Evil that leads to sin. Sin is the result of disobeying God not the reason for it.
You cannot be Lukewarm and be true to GOD!
2. God made mankind because HE WANTED TOO. He needs no other reason.
A. People were made in the image of God for fellowship.
They had to be enough like God to truly know and fellowship with Him.
B. The relation between God and Man is Fellowship Not Grace,
Grace came later to solve a problem and restore fellowship.
C. Original SIN was a CHOICE to disobey God,
Satan and Adam made the choice to disobey God.
D. The result of this disobedience was SEPARATION FROM GOD.
E. God is absolute GOOD to turn from God in any way is EVIL.
3. There are now and always have been TWO ways a person may travel.
a. Turn to God, See and Know His Goodness and Grace.
b. Choose to disobey God and live as the world allows.
4. Paul encourages the Christians in Rome to grow in their patterns of obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit, for he says, “If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Rom. 8:13). He also promises them, “Sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace” (6:14). John promises his readers that if they confess their sins to God, he will not only forgive their sins, but also will work inwardly in them to “cleanse” them from sin. John says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Therefore, we should be encouraged in our attempts to live each day in obedience to God’s moral teachings in his Word. He promises us not only moral guidance and direction, but also the spiritual and moral ability to increasingly follow those directions. We will never do so perfectly in this life, but it should encourage us greatly that he promises this inward moral strength and inward work in our hearts. W. Grudem, Christian Ethics. Kindle edition page 145.
The BLOOD Sacrifice was given to Adam and Eve as a second chance to obey GOD. They could make the sacrifice in remembrance of obeying God looking forward to the Promise God made of a coming savior. G3:15
People are saved by Grace, people have always been saved by Grace, The Blood sacrifices only looked forward to Christ, The Law POINTS OUT WHAT SIN IS, it never had the power to save anyone.
When bible teachers misread or blend ancient philosophy and religion with what they think the bible says, or their theology requires, they come to a teaching like “all matter is evil”.
They are very possibly led by Satan to teach error.
The problem is how could the Self-existent Holy God create Evil? How Could the Holy Son of God be born of evil flesh? The answer to both questions is “the premise is wrong.”
God did not create evil and all flesh is not material evil.
There are some ideas that are basic to logic. If there is good the absence of good is evil. There is a level of thought that comes from elemental concepts. God cannot be evil. The very meaning of evil is an elemental opposite of God. To say this another way some ideas are so basic they are the foundation of the discussion. Elemental Ideas are so basic they come from the character and nature of God Himself and were not created by God they ARE the basis of the discussion. Words and ideas have meaning, elemental ideas come from the foundation of reality, and they just are. God is Holy, Love, Good. Did God create Holiness, Good, Love, Mercy, Justice? No, they are the attributes that describe God. The Opposite exist because opposite is elemental to the Idea, unholy, hate, evil. From the idea God could not create evil came the many other ideas trying to explain how evil or sin came to be.
It is simple,
To Disobey GOD is EVIL that results in SIN. Satan and man made a choice to disobey God.
God did not create evil or sin, Evil is the opposite of God IS A CHOICE! A Choice God gave people the ability and right to make. It is this choice that separates people from God.
When God gave Adam and Eve the right and ability to choose to have fellowship with Him or Not, it was not a new idea. The angels of heaven had already done that. So, it may not be so strange that God gave humans the ability to choose to obey Him or Not. He wanted a creature that could, had the right too and would choose to love and fellowship with Him. All the choices we make and all of the “good” and “Bad” we may do is a free choice God created us able to make.
Here I find the most terrifying truth I have read in the Bible.
God gave us the ability and right to make our own choices, (think about this), God will honor those choices! Even if it means we reject Him.
Hell (eternal separation from God) is the clear truth that God will honor every choice.
What is a picture of Good and Evil?
Adam in the garden fellowshipped daily with God. “They walked in the garden in the Cool of the day”. God taught Adam all the things he needed to know.
Adam knew the GOODNESS OF GOD.
Then Adam DISOBEYED GOD and the fellowship was broken, Blood had to be shed, Adam was put from the garden so he could not eat of the tree of life. He had to work hard and till the ground by the sweat of his face to eat. He was apart from God.
He knew what evil meant, “To disobey God” the opposite of Good.
The word translated DIE from Hebrew before the Babylonian captivity, the writing is in pictograph form: Tm
- (מת) Action: Separation Object: Man Abstract: Mortality, Death
- Definition: The length of time that something exists and ends.
- Ancient Hebrew: The pictograph is a picture of water representing chaos, the is a picture of two crossed sticks representing a mark or sign. Combined these mean "chaos mark".
DIE, what did the word mean in this verse? As is true of most Hebrew words this one carries a wide array of meaning, from a separation of service, fellowship, loyalty, and life all the way to simple DEATH, (but even death is the separation of the Body and its animal life, the Soul). The roots of the word, the pictograph, is a picture of water representing chaos, and a picture of two crossed sticks representing a mark or sign. Combined these mean "chaos mark", a separation or ending. The text says “dying you die” which is an idiom meaning surely it will happen. It is saying The length of time that something exists and ends will truly happen. Yes, it is used of the ending of a physical life the separation of the Body and animal life, but it also means much more.
Chaos Mark, the point something separated, example the body and Soul (as animal life) But the example is not the only usage there are many ways of separation, the one intended here is the separation of people in Adam and Eve from God. Dying you Die, is a statement of emphasis that the Separation Will happen.
There is a lot of theology in the definition of this word as used in Gen 2. The theology teaches that man is dead to the ability to know God and that is simply NOT what it means,
It is said that this means DEATH as in separated from life and existence, this is also not what it means.
There are some that take this point to the extreme of saying it means Mankind is so “DEAD” that they have no ability or will to know God, it does not mean that either,
THE CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS.
Consider, Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
[note an important idea here. This thought is abruptly dropped. The idea of humans eating of the “Tree of life” while SEPARATE from God and living forever in that state was more than even God would contemplate.
Hell and the eternal lake of fire is called Death,
Eternal separation from God]
It would seem to me, If God said man is become as one of us to know good and Evil, it also stands that man has knowledge of God and good vs Evil. The blood sacrifice was a mediatorial substitute that allowed Adam and Eve and their prodigy to be restored to fellowship with God as LONG AS THEY OBEYED!
What are we “Saved From?
Eternal separation from God!”
RevSRE
Supporter
There was promise made in Genesis 3:15, the great body of Christian interpreters recognize here the first Messianic prophecy, the protoevangelium. Everyone from Adam on that made the Blood Sacrifice obedient to God was expressing a knowledge of GOD and His Plan of Redemption. A Plan that restores us to Fellowship with God. A plan of GRACE that a messiah would come and pay our debt for disobeying God, a debt that only the perfect blood of the Son of God could pay, Blood, a mediatorial substitute was shed in our place to restore us to the Father.
This Gift of the Blood sacrifice and Christ righteousness given to us is called GRACE!
It takes a serious failure to read the scripture to say mankind is to depraved to know God when people made the sacrifices for all those years.
If we are to truly know what it means to be the Highest of God’s creation and to know why I am here, that is to fellowship with God, we must also understand; just as Adam and Eve were tested in the Garden to see if they would obey God or not. People are created in the image of God with the ability and right to make decisions on their own. Adam and Eve did not die at that moment, God offered a mediatorial substitute in the form of an animal. There was death, Blood was shed, the skin was used to cover shame of nakedness.
IT says God separated Adam from the “tree of life.” Adam still had to deal with the result of sin, till the ground by the sweat of his brow, with weeds in his field. But the covering blood left him in right standing with God. Adam knew what he had to do to obey God. Adam had the free choice to obey. Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not!
It may be well here for us to correct a misapprehension which largely obtains in the common conception of what redemption is. When this word is used, most men's minds go back to the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and think of something already accomplished and complete in the blessed facts of the blessed Saviour's history. But, viewed as a whole, redemption is a vastly wider and more wondrous thing. It stretches back through a history of six thousand years, and yet its sublimest part is still future. It includes all past dispensations and theophanies, and the coming and achievements of Christ in the flesh; but it embraces still other dispensations, and more wonderful theophanies, and a more glorious advent of Christ, and vastly more far-reaching achievements, of which His miracles were the symptomatic preintimations. There is already much of redemptive power and blessing in the world. The truth is, that everything on earth rests on a mediatorial basis. The world stands, and man exists, only because of Christ and His undertaking to be our Saviour. But for His mediatorship, Adam would have perished the day that he transgressed, and never a human being would have been born. The very ungodliest of the race owe whatever blessings they enjoy to the blood and engagement of Christ. The Apocalypse Lectures on the Book of Revelation By Joseph Seiss Originally copyrighted in 1900. This work is now in the public domain.
Now we need to review some obvious points in this story that have been overlooked often by many people.
If we say this passage is only physical death, meaning beings created to live with God forever were to die (separation of body and soul) and although it is true that death did happen, they did not cease to exist. They were in the place called Sheol. And note they were in the part of Sheol, Paradise or Death(hell) which they chose based on their relation to God.
Spiritual death is a choice, a choice to disobey God. The result of that choice is to know eternal separation from God.
Only the ones in Paradise, the ones that obeyed God and kept His commandments were taken to heaven with Jesus, saved by grace.
The ones in death (hell) must still face the judgment and the eternal lake of fire made for the ones (Angels and Men) who chose to disobey and reject God. Please Note: They were created eternal beings and will spend eternity somewhere. The separation from God is the eternal "chaos mark", of the Genesis Story.
Sin, what we call sin, all the dos and don’ts, all the “bad” things we list Are NOT IMPORTANT!
Once you turn from God you are LOST!
Which “Sin” you choose to do does not make you MORE LOST.
We spend so much time focused on “SIN” wickedness, and evil we miss the point. We must be Totally obedient to GOD.
God is absolute GOOD to turn from God in any way is EVIL and results is sin! Sin follows Evil it is the RESULT not the reason. Some say sin leads to evil, but that is BACKWARDS. To turn from God is Evil that leads to sin.
Fellowshipping with and worshiping GOD, Keeping God’s commandments, (yes all of them), is the answer to the problem.
THERE IS NO ROOM FOR SIN!! THERE IS NO ROOM FOR lukewarm!! There are some things that just are not, cannot be, a consideration in our life, a life committed to and lived in fellowship with the Most High GOD. As I have written before we will never know HOLY, PERFECT (Complete), if all of our focus is on EVIL!
The TEST is will I decide to obey God? Think for a moment, God made people for fellowship with Him and gave them the right and ability to make choices to fellowship with Him to Love Him to Obey Him OR NOT I will offer and I believe “It is a Choice God made us able to make.” Not totally evil or depraved but a free choice to “with knowledge of result,” Choose to Love, obey, and fellowship with GOD, OR to choose to live life our own way.
IT IS A CHOICE. A CHOICE TO LIVE HOLY!
If you are in God and God’s Spirit indwells you; You are HOLY because of the Presence of GOD, not by any thing you have done.
If you understand the choice, a free choice God gave us the Ability to make with the Knowledge of result and the Right to make ourselves, you can see it is not Total Depravity but a clear choice to do as I please, Live for Self or to Fellowship with GOD and obey HIM.
Depravity is REAL but it is a choice to say no to God.
The test is always Will I obey God or do what He said not to do. Think about it there is no evil in eating fruit from that tree EXCEPT God said do not do it. Except it was to disobey God, He said not too. Part of the problem is failing to see what sin is.
And the results error/sin is many depraved acts of living like I want to. So often we make the result the error/sin the issue and try to show people how to get forgiveness for every step of how they live. Not dealing with the real problem of obeying God. They work on the symptoms not the underlying problem which is to obey God.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures test: for when he is tested, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.
The point here is that there are many times in our life just intermixing with people and life when we come to a point that we must make a choice. We must use a God given ability and right to make a choice to OBEY GOD. God did not tempt or try to trick us; it is just a choice of how I will live. Life and living requires us to choose God or the world.
It really is just that simple.
It is not total depravity it is a free choice to do right,
but all too often people choose to do what they want.
There are testing’ in life caused by just living and interacting with other people. We are faced with a choice Do I obey God and live a right and holy life, or do I do as the world allows and follow others in what is popular.
Do not say God TEMPTED me God is not tempted to evil and God does not tempt or test us just to see what we may do. We have a free image of God choice as we live life to choose God or the world,
IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY!
Depravity is REAL but it is a CHOICE!!
2 - The opposite or turning away from God is evil that leads to sin.
This is not complicated evil / sin exist as the absence of God.
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT:
There are and always have been two ways.
This Gift of the Blood sacrifice and Christ righteousness given to us is called GRACE!
It takes a serious failure to read the scripture to say mankind is to depraved to know God when people made the sacrifices for all those years.
If we are to truly know what it means to be the Highest of God’s creation and to know why I am here, that is to fellowship with God, we must also understand; just as Adam and Eve were tested in the Garden to see if they would obey God or not. People are created in the image of God with the ability and right to make decisions on their own. Adam and Eve did not die at that moment, God offered a mediatorial substitute in the form of an animal. There was death, Blood was shed, the skin was used to cover shame of nakedness.
IT says God separated Adam from the “tree of life.” Adam still had to deal with the result of sin, till the ground by the sweat of his brow, with weeds in his field. But the covering blood left him in right standing with God. Adam knew what he had to do to obey God. Adam had the free choice to obey. Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not!
It may be well here for us to correct a misapprehension which largely obtains in the common conception of what redemption is. When this word is used, most men's minds go back to the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and think of something already accomplished and complete in the blessed facts of the blessed Saviour's history. But, viewed as a whole, redemption is a vastly wider and more wondrous thing. It stretches back through a history of six thousand years, and yet its sublimest part is still future. It includes all past dispensations and theophanies, and the coming and achievements of Christ in the flesh; but it embraces still other dispensations, and more wonderful theophanies, and a more glorious advent of Christ, and vastly more far-reaching achievements, of which His miracles were the symptomatic preintimations. There is already much of redemptive power and blessing in the world. The truth is, that everything on earth rests on a mediatorial basis. The world stands, and man exists, only because of Christ and His undertaking to be our Saviour. But for His mediatorship, Adam would have perished the day that he transgressed, and never a human being would have been born. The very ungodliest of the race owe whatever blessings they enjoy to the blood and engagement of Christ. The Apocalypse Lectures on the Book of Revelation By Joseph Seiss Originally copyrighted in 1900. This work is now in the public domain.
Now we need to review some obvious points in this story that have been overlooked often by many people.
If we say this passage is only physical death, meaning beings created to live with God forever were to die (separation of body and soul) and although it is true that death did happen, they did not cease to exist. They were in the place called Sheol. And note they were in the part of Sheol, Paradise or Death(hell) which they chose based on their relation to God.
Spiritual death is a choice, a choice to disobey God. The result of that choice is to know eternal separation from God.
Only the ones in Paradise, the ones that obeyed God and kept His commandments were taken to heaven with Jesus, saved by grace.
The ones in death (hell) must still face the judgment and the eternal lake of fire made for the ones (Angels and Men) who chose to disobey and reject God. Please Note: They were created eternal beings and will spend eternity somewhere. The separation from God is the eternal "chaos mark", of the Genesis Story.
Sin, what we call sin, all the dos and don’ts, all the “bad” things we list Are NOT IMPORTANT!
Once you turn from God you are LOST!
Which “Sin” you choose to do does not make you MORE LOST.
We spend so much time focused on “SIN” wickedness, and evil we miss the point. We must be Totally obedient to GOD.
God is absolute GOOD to turn from God in any way is EVIL and results is sin! Sin follows Evil it is the RESULT not the reason. Some say sin leads to evil, but that is BACKWARDS. To turn from God is Evil that leads to sin.
Fellowshipping with and worshiping GOD, Keeping God’s commandments, (yes all of them), is the answer to the problem.
THERE IS NO ROOM FOR SIN!! THERE IS NO ROOM FOR lukewarm!! There are some things that just are not, cannot be, a consideration in our life, a life committed to and lived in fellowship with the Most High GOD. As I have written before we will never know HOLY, PERFECT (Complete), if all of our focus is on EVIL!
The TEST is will I decide to obey God? Think for a moment, God made people for fellowship with Him and gave them the right and ability to make choices to fellowship with Him to Love Him to Obey Him OR NOT I will offer and I believe “It is a Choice God made us able to make.” Not totally evil or depraved but a free choice to “with knowledge of result,” Choose to Love, obey, and fellowship with GOD, OR to choose to live life our own way.
IT IS A CHOICE. A CHOICE TO LIVE HOLY!
If you are in God and God’s Spirit indwells you; You are HOLY because of the Presence of GOD, not by any thing you have done.
If you understand the choice, a free choice God gave us the Ability to make with the Knowledge of result and the Right to make ourselves, you can see it is not Total Depravity but a clear choice to do as I please, Live for Self or to Fellowship with GOD and obey HIM.
Depravity is REAL but it is a choice to say no to God.
The test is always Will I obey God or do what He said not to do. Think about it there is no evil in eating fruit from that tree EXCEPT God said do not do it. Except it was to disobey God, He said not too. Part of the problem is failing to see what sin is.
The EVIL is to disobey God!
God is absolute GOOD to turn from God in any way is to turn to EVIL.And the results error/sin is many depraved acts of living like I want to. So often we make the result the error/sin the issue and try to show people how to get forgiveness for every step of how they live. Not dealing with the real problem of obeying God. They work on the symptoms not the underlying problem which is to obey God.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures test: for when he is tested, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.
The point here is that there are many times in our life just intermixing with people and life when we come to a point that we must make a choice. We must use a God given ability and right to make a choice to OBEY GOD. God did not tempt or try to trick us; it is just a choice of how I will live. Life and living requires us to choose God or the world.
It really is just that simple.
It is not total depravity it is a free choice to do right,
but all too often people choose to do what they want.
There are testing’ in life caused by just living and interacting with other people. We are faced with a choice Do I obey God and live a right and holy life, or do I do as the world allows and follow others in what is popular.
Do not say God TEMPTED me God is not tempted to evil and God does not tempt or test us just to see what we may do. We have a free image of God choice as we live life to choose God or the world,
IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY!
Depravity is REAL but it is a CHOICE!!
There are and always have been two ways of thought and action that a person may follow. They are based on a single truth that has confounded people for all time.
1 - The self-existent Holy God is GOOD.2 - The opposite or turning away from God is evil that leads to sin.
This is not complicated evil / sin exist as the absence of God.
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT:
There are and always have been two ways.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
There are Christian saints and Christian sinners. The former are presently born sons of God doing the will of the Father by the faith of Jesus. The latter are Christians by virtue of naming Christ, but are not sons born of God because of present ungodly living.
Only the sons of God in Christ Jesus are justified, and have eternal salvation. All living ungodly are unjustified and must repent of sinning against Christ.
Tenchi
Member
Yes, as said in my last post, the Spirit was criticizing the doer of the "lukewarm" deeds.
And yes, generally, a tree is known by its fruit. But, of course, trees may not bear "good fruit" when they are diseased, or malnourished, or starved of water and sufficient sunlight. And so, we read of the "carnal infants in Christ" in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 who, though saved, were not bearing "good fruit." Neither were the believers in Galatia, or at Colosse. Nor were the believers in the churches of Sardis or Laodicea.
Paul is very plain, though, that all of a genuinely born-again person's works can be burned up but he will still enter God's kingdom. Just read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. And this is why, though the "angel" of the Laodicean church was so "lukewarm" and "poor, blind, wretched and naked," he was still spoken to as one within God's kingdom and family.
Faith that doesn't produce corresponding works is "dead" in the sense of it being incomplete and thus useless, just as James wrote:
James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected [Gk. teleioo -to bring to an end; to complete, or accomplish];
So, James didn't mean to say that a "dead faith" is a faith that is non-existent or has literally died and so is no longer operating but is, simply, faith that has not been fully expressed in a practically useful way.
James's example of Abraham was given in illustration of the uselessness - not the absence - of a faith that doesn't produce corresponding action (vs. 20). The action of Abraham's faith which "justified" him was an external action involving his son, but the justification of the born-again, New Covenant believer arises from the action of their trusting in Christ as Savior and Lord (Romans 10:9-10), not from an external, physical action like Abraham's. No such action is involved in the believer being fully justified in and through Christ.
Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
So, it doesn't seem to me that the apostle James was intending to say anything about lost salvation, or works-salvation, but simply that faith is properly completed and made useful by corresponding action.
Well, simply asserting this doesn't make it so...
How is it a delusion in light of the many instances of criticism and correction given to genuine believers throughout the New Testament? Just read 1 Corinthians 3. Or Revelation 2-3.
But, they aren't. The Spirit doesn't say to the Laodicean church, "You have been spat out of God's mouth." No, despite being "lukewarm," and "poor, wretched, blind and naked" spiritually, the Laodicean believers had not yet been spat of God's mouth!
Revelation 3:16
16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will [not have already] spit you out of My mouth.
Revelation 3:19
19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
The whole point of the Spirit's words to the "angel of the church of Laodicea" was to express love and prevent God from having to spit the "angel" (i.e. Pastor/Elder/Bishop and his church) out of His mouth.
Continued below.
Tenchi
Member
No. Wrong. See above.
See: Romans 7:14-22, Galatians 5:17. Both indicate otherwise.
This entirely ignores my point. The Spirit says nothing to the "angel" at Laodicea about the deeds of the Laodicean believers or about the deeds of the "lukewarm" "angel" over the church. Just read the passage.
Because this is what the Bible plainly describes. See above.
This doesn't change the fact of the passage that I observed: The Spirit in his comments to the Laodicean "angel" never says that the Laodiceans did both good and evil things. It is eisegesis to force into the passage what isn't there. Doing so is a fast and sure route to false doctrine.
You're speaking past my point here. Why is that?
Again, the Spirit defines "lukewarmness" as spiritual complacency and apathy and spiritual blindness born of affluence, not doing good and evil together, as you asserted.
Revelation 3:17
17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Again, this speaks right past my point. Why are you doing this?
Doing evil is the result, the product, of yielding to sinful temptation of some sort. See James 1:14-16. Doing evil is not itself the temptation to do what is evil.
In any case, you have misquoted Genesis 3:5 quite badly. Do you think this will actually help you understand God's Truth?
This also speaks past my point. And ignores my question. Why do you do this?
It's very...interesting - and telling - that in discussing your claims about Revelation 3:14-21, you have left the passage entirely and are referring to the Old Testament where God speaks to Israel under the Old Covenant, not to the Church under the "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:19-22).
This is nowhere indicated in Revelation 3:14-21. All of what you say above is entirely forced into the passage.
This isn't what the Spirit speaking to the "angel" of the Laodicean church says. All of this above is your unwarranted addition to the passage.
But you were making your case for your remarks from the passage in Revelation 3. If you intended a broad, whole -Scripture look at Christian living, you shouldn't have begun by confining your remarks to this one passage.
This, too, speaks past my point entirely.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
1Jo 2:28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
The problem is Christians being taught to have confidence in being saved by faith alone while sinning, rather than preaching to simply repent and have confidence in Christ Jesus to sin not.
That we make our salvation and calling sure unto the end, and fall not into temptation to sin.
The whole armour of God is to destroy all temptation and sin not. Armour to deflect unbelief in being saved, is only for sinners not yet repented of all their sins and trespasses.
2Ki 18:21Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.
Satan doesn't care about whether someone believes they are saved or not, but only if someone is living it in Christ Jesus.
1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Phl 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
The good work begun by Jesus Christ for them that repent, is blameless living, not uninterrrupted faith in being saved, while doing things to be blamed.
Only them living godly in Christ are enemies of the devil, not religious sinners debating over whether they are 'really' saved or not.
That was my constant worry as a sinner, before repenting of my sins against Christ.
When I did repent by His grace, I ceased worrying about being saved or not, and got on with the good work of pleasing Him, and trusting in His same grace to help overcome temptation as He did.
Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
The grace of God is to help perform the good work of godly living unto the end. It's not to help perform faith and doctrinal gymnastics about being saved in ungodliness.
Such as believing in being inwardly righteous, while doing unrighteous works of the flesh.
Those who have been taught and trained and learned to never doubt their own salvation, while transgressing the law of Christ, have successfully seared their conscience to conviction of sin and judgment by the Spirit of grace:
Heb 10:29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: