Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

They are simply "weak"---they are not guilty of "corrupt living, trying to convince oneself of still being saved" as you state.

Then why frame any doctrine of weakness with times of sinning?

If your whole argument is about having weak faith, while sinning not, then good, and why not say so from the outset?

Let's make this clear: You are not teaching that Christians are weak in the faith at certaime, which include also at times of sinning against Christ. Correct?

With the righteous saints, the only Scripture about such weakness, is doubts about liberty in the law.

Every born son of God is strong in righteousness, though some are weak in conscience pertaining to law.

Until the weak saints are fully persuaded in the knowledge of the law of Christ, then keeping a clean conscience is more important than exercising liberty.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

John Bunyan, the great Puritan who wrote "Pilgrim's Progress" also wrote a book called "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners".

It's called the promise of mercy to any sinner that repents for Jesus' sake.

Grace abounds to the righteous to continuing doing righteousness of God, not to sinners to continue sinning with faith in being saved.

Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

In that book he gives his testimony of how when he was "weak" and new as a Christian the enemy convinced him he had committed the Unpardonable Sin.

Ignorance of the law is an open door to the false accuser against the righteous.

Transgression of the law is in open door to death and hell.

-but "weak" in that he hadn't learned how to use the whole armour of God yet.

Weak in conscience is weak in knowledge of the word of righteousness, not weak in faith to do right.

Heb 5:13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

He was a "weak" Christian, not a "lukewarm" one.

No, he was an ulearned newborn babe in the knowledge of the law of Christ.

This is why we don't trust in books of man for doctrine of Christ and knowledge of the truth.

The devil only accuses the brethren with sin, that was not committed.

The devil doesn't at all accuse them that sin, for such are his friends.

Jas 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Sinners need to repent by the Spirit's conviction of sins and trespasses. Saints need to learn the difference between conviction of the Spirit and guilt-tripping of the false accusers, including false teachers of the law.

That is learned by doing well, and learning the law of the Lord as written:

Heb 5:14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1Ti 1:5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned; From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

If you don't believe anyone can go through a period of "weakness" and still be a sincere and dedicated Christian you have a LOT TO LEARN.

So long as weakness is not used for sinning in the faith, then I certainly do know the difference.

My weakness of conscience was alcohol, having been a great partying drunkard whenever I could.

The law of Christ condemns drunkeness and rioteous living, not wine and strong drink.

Rom 14:14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1Co 6:12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Phl 4:5Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

I would never even question a repented newborn babe's conscience, but only instruct in the law, and only if asked. Nor would I purposely exercise my liberty in their face.

I also now know fully how not to be guilt-tripped by rules, traditions, and commandments of men, preached for doctrine and law of Christ:

Mar 7:7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Tit 1:14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Col 2:20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

[RBDERRICK]

"hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord". (1 Cor. 5:5).

1Co 5:4 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


The spirit to be saved is that of holiness in the church of the righteous, and the spirits of the faithful assembly of saints.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

The wicked one is to be cast out and purged from the body of saints, lest unrepented sin have free reign among them.

We don't sacrifice holiness in our assembly nor lives, for which Christ was crucified, under the banner of loving the brethren that sin wilfully after knowledge of the truth.

1Co 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Heb 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

This verse seems to disprove many of your points above about both the person and his deeds being spit out. This verse (1 Cor. 5:5) says that God is doing this so the person will be saved on the day of the Lord.

It's always a matter of perspective. If someone wants to believe someone sinning against Christ, can be saved and justified with Christ at the same time, then they will turn every Scripture towards that doctrine.

If someone, such as me, does not believe any man sinning against Christ, especially myself, is still justified with God, then every Scripture is turned toward that. (Whether it condemns myself or not)

And, we can also see which side is honest or not, by whether Scriptures are taught in context, or wrested out of place.

2 Peter 3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Which includes taking all Scripture in context together for doctrine of Christ:

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Christ is only confirming by Paul in several places, the teaching Jesus taught to the Jews: if a fellow brother or sister is behaving as the world, without repentance nor godly sorrow, then treat them as the world, and not as a fellow brother or sister in the Lord.

Saints are not only commanded by Christ to purge ourselves of sins and trespasses, but also are ordained by Christ to purge the assembly of ungodly sinners and trespassers.

Psa 1:15 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

The lukewarm in works are doing both good and evil, and in the assembly seeking to have their good deeds favored, and their evil deeds overlooked.

Give honor to whom honor is do, and purge anyone to whom evil is unrepented of. Or let Christ wrist ichabod over the place of congregation:

Rev 2:5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This is to the whole assembly of believers in one place. They can still assemble together as faithfully and haply as they wish, but the light of Christ and spirit of holiness has gone out from their ministry and worship.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, as said in my last post, the Spirit was criticizing the doer of the "lukewarm" deeds.

And yes, generally, a tree is known by its fruit.

Specifically, not generally. What we are doing at the time, is what we are. Whether theiving, whoring, murdering, lying...

Wresting the truth from Scripture, includes lip-service to Scripture that guts it of truth.

But, of course, trees may not bear "good fruit" when they are diseased, or malnourished, or starved of water and sufficient sunlight. And so, we read of the "carnal infants in Christ" in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 who, though saved, were not bearing "good fruit." Neither were the believers in Galatia, or at Colosse. Nor were the believers in the churches of Sardis or Laodicea.

Carnal, yes. In Christ, no. Not in Jesus Christ. He has no diseased and corrupt members by sin and trespass against Him.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Except we repent, He cuts them off as dead to be burned, according to His own doctrine of holiness:

Mat 5:29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jhn 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Paul is very plain, though, that all of a genuinely born-again person's

Genuine as in holiiness unto the Lord, not sinning against Him.

works can be burned up but he will still enter God's kingdom. Just read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

Ministerial errors are not works of evil, but only errors of ministry. They pertain to rewards of cities to rule during the Millennium of Christ.

The judgment seat of Christ is to purge out His kingdom of good wheat to come, from the evil tares.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

There is no terror in ministerial error, but only in evil doing.

Heb 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And this is why, though the "angel" of the Laodicean church was so "lukewarm" and "poor, blind, wretched and naked," he was still spoken to as one within God's kingdom and family.

Only if we repent in the space given by grace.

Rev 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Faith that doesn't produce corresponding works is "dead" in the sense of it being incomplete and thus useless, just as James wrote:

True. Useless to God and man, nor for justification with Christ.

Dead faith saves no man:

James{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

As well as dead love:

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

So, James didn't mean to say that a "dead faith" is a faith that is non-existent

True. It's the faith that one has to themselves alone, not toward God nor man. It's the inner faith of hypocrites, that don't do it.

A faith so well hidden within, that it can't be seen without. Not by God nor man.

or has literally died

Dead is dead. Not alive. Whether it was alive or not.

Lip-service to Scripture includes making truth without substance.

Heb{11:1} Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith unseen in deeds, is faith without substance for God and man to eat of.

and so is no longer operating but is, simply, faith that has not been fully expressed in a practically useful way.

Charming.

When the faith energizes again into doing good, then both God and man will see it, and glorify God.

Until then. It's dead.

James's example of Abraham was given in illustration of the uselessness - not the absence - of a faith that doesn't produce corresponding action (vs. 20). The action of Abraham's faith which "justified" him was an external action involving his son, but the justification of the born-again, New Covenant believer arises from the action of their trusting in Christ as Savior and Lord (Romans 10:9-10), not from an external, physical action like Abraham's. No such action is involved in the believer being fully justified in and through Christ.

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

There is no loving God without the act of loving God.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

There is no such justification with Jesus Christ, without such action of faith and love toward God and man.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The act justified Abraham with God, and only then was the Scripture fulfilled, that He was a righteous Friend of God.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Without the act of faith, faith is unturned into righteousness.

{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

So, it doesn't seem to me that the apostle James was intending to say anything about lost salvation,

Whether lost or never had, faith without works is dead and cannot save any man, nor justify us with God by Jesus Christ.

or works-salvation,

Workless salvation by workless faith and worthless love.

Show me a salvation without works, and I'll show you a worthless salvation without God.

 

[Tenchi]

Specifically, not generally. What we are doing at the time, is what we are. Whether theiving, whoring, murdering, lying...

Wresting the truth from Scripture, includes lip-service to Scripture that guts it of truth.

??? This doesn't make a lot of sense, to me. We are what we are doing? Is a man who is behaving like a woman, wearing feminine clothing and makeup, and has had a couple of fake breasts attached to his chest therefore actually a woman? Of course not. He has only managed to fiddle with his exterior a bit and create a weak, clownish appearance of female-ness. He'll never give birth to a child; he'll never lactate or suffer a menstrual cycle; he'll never endure menopause; he'll never possess a uterus. So, then, the transgender man is not what he is doing.

How about the man who thinks he's, say, a dog? I actually saw a documentary about such a man. He eats from a dog dish on the floor, shoving his face into the bowl like a dog would do, lapping up water from a dish on the floor, too. He barks like a dog in greeting of friends and family. He goes about on all fours, and insists that he be petted like a dog. Is this man what he is doing? Is he a dog? Obviously not.

I can think of many other examples of people who are clearly not what they are doing. So, then, it is a strange thing to me to read your assertion that "We are what we are doing."

Scripture also denies your assertion, describing born-again people who were not living according to the truth of who they were in Jesus Christ. The Corinthians believers are a great example. So, too, the believers in Galatia. And five of the churches in Revelation 2-3, as well. And so, all throughout the NT we can read of criticism and correction of Christians.

Carnal, yes. In Christ, no. Not in Jesus Christ. He has no diseased and corrupt members by sin and trespass against Him.

Well, you don't get to say what is and isn't God's Truth; Scripture does. And it says very plainly that the Corinthian believers were BOTH carnal and spiritually infantile and ALSO in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

1 Corinthians 3:9
9 ...you are God's field, God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:16
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

There is no doubt that Paul thought that the carnal, spiritually infantile and divisive Corinthian believers were also born-again children of God. So, it is just flat-out false to say that "Christ has no diseased and corrupt members by sin." This is all he has as "joint-heirs" with him. It is only by virtue of Christ's imputed perfect righteousness (not our own imperfect righteousness) that we are made acceptable to God. On our own, we are just wretched sinners deserving of hell. It is, then, just obviously false to say that Christ has no sinning members (i.e. born-again believers). The entire Body of Believers is constituted of converted sinners.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

This verse is, of course, speaking of Christ, not of those who are "in him" spiritually. There are many great differences between our Savior and ourselves. This is one of them.

Except we repent, He cuts them off as dead to be burned, according to His own doctrine of holiness:

Mat 5:29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jhn 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Neither of these verses establish your assertion that the unrepentant in Christ are cut off from him. The unrepentant outside of Christ are another matter, however.

In Matthew 5:29, Jesus is speaking to unsaved people still under the Old Covenant (he had not yet died for the sins of all mankind). So, his words don't apply at all to the born-again believer who stands within the "new and living way" consecrated through Jesus Christ at Calvary (Hebrews 12:19-22).

And John 15:6 describes a lost person in contrast to the saved person, not a saved person who becomes lost.

Genuine as in holiiness unto the Lord, not sinning against Him.

No, genuineness as in, "Clearly indwelt by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 8:16; Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:9-14; 1 John 4:13; John 14:16-17, 26, etc.).

Ministerial errors are not works of evil, but only errors of ministry.

It isn't "ministerial errors" that are in view in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Read the passage carefully.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

"No man," (1) "any man," (x3) "each man's" (x2). These are phrases general/universal in their scope, not referring only to those in ministry, but to any man, which is to say, "every man," or "all men" (and women).

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

There is no terror in ministerial error, but only in evil doing.

If the "wood, hay and stubble" is burned up, this suggests that such "building materials" were rejected by God as inferior and thus displeasing to Him. In other words, they are sinful, which is why the man whose works are consumed by the testing of divine fire is saved but only "so as through fire," receiving no reward from God.

Only if we repent in the space given by grace.

This isn't what the passage concerning the Laodiceans indicated. Though the "angel" of the Laodicean church was spiritually "lukewarm," apathetic and blind spiritually, he was being addressed because he was STILL a part of God's Church. How long had be been in this state and yet remained part of God's family and kingdom? Long enough for his apathy and blindness to be well-formed and established and thus to warrant challenge by the Spirit, through the apostle John. This quite defeats the idea that sin in the life of the believer cuts them off from their born-again position in Christ. As does 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, and Galatians 3:1-3, and Ephesians 5:1-13, and Romans 6:1-2, etc.

Rev 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

These words weren't given to the "angel" of the church at Laodicea.

You'll notice, too, that the warning given to the Jezebel-like woman and those who followed her was not the dissolution of their salvation, but a "bed of tribulation."

True. Useless to God and man, nor for justification with Christ.

Dead faith saves no man:

James{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James didn't actually say that "dead faith saves no man." This is your extrapolation from his words. James posed the question "Can faith save him?" but he did not answer it the way you have. Instead, as I pointed out from the passage in James 2, James defined a "dead faith" as a faith that is useless, practically-speaking, and incomplete, and alone, but he never stated that such faith meant the dissolution of one's salvation. This is entirely your eisegetically imposed interpretation of James's words.

True. It's the faith that one has to themselves alone, not toward God nor man. It's the inner faith of hypocrites, that don't do it.

Again, this is all your addition to James's words and meaning. He says nothing like you do, here.

Dead is dead. Not alive. Whether it was alive or not.

No, "dead" can mean a number of things in Scripture, not just dead in the sense of physical death. "Dead" can mean "separation from" which is actually most often its meaning in the NT (See: the parable of the Prodigal Son - Luke 15:11-32, or Romans 6, Colossians 3:3, etc). "Dead" can mean what James meant by the term in James 2: useless, incomplete, alone. "Dead" can mean "so inactive as to appear to be dead" (Revelation 3:1-2). And so on. It is not the case, then, that "dead is dead" when it comes to what Scripture means in its use of the term.

Charming.

When the faith energizes again into doing good, then both God and man will see it, and glorify God.

Until then. It's dead.

Nope. See above. James very clearly stated what he meant by "dead" and it isn't what you're saying here.

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

There is no loving God without the act of loving God.

This speaks past my point. Again.

There is no such justification with Jesus Christ, without such action of faith and love toward God and man.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The act justified Abraham with God, and only then was the Scripture fulfilled, that He was a righteous Friend of God.

You aren't interacting here with what I pointed out from James's remarks concerning Abraham, but just reiterating your viewpoint. This bald contradiction of an opposing or challenging view doesn't secure your view and defeat the challenging view. It's just contradiction, which does neither thing - like kids on the playground who argue,

"No, you aren't."

"Yes, I am."

"No, you aren't."

"Yes, I am."

When you've been shown that there is a good alternative understanding of some particular Scripture than you possess, if you want to handle God's word well, and properly understand His Truth, you will not simply stick your head into the sand of your already-held beliefs and ignore new/different insight. Instead, evaluate what you're hearing in light of what Scripture actually says, not what you want it to say. If you do this, the way you've handled and understood the passage to the Laodicean church is clearly in error, as I've shown. This is the case also for most of the proof-texts you've thrown out as you've tried to avoid/ignore the evidence of your mistaken ideas about Scripture.

Whether lost or never had, faith without works is dead and cannot save any man, nor justify us with God by Jesus Christ.

Faith has never saved anyone; only Christ saves sinners; he alone is The Savior (John 14:6; Acts 4:12 1 Timothy 2:5). Our faith merely places us in position to be saved; it doesn't itself save us. So, then, it is unbiblical to make one's faith the linchpin of one's salvation. It isn't. We are saved by The Savior, not by our faith.

Workless salvation by workless faith and worthless love.

Show me a salvation without works, and I'll show you a worthless salvation without God.

It is the life and work of the Holy Spirit that proves one's salvation, not legalistic obedience to God. So, you show me a life in which the Holy Spirit is not evident, full of legalistic self-effort and fear, and you'll have shown me a life that does not yet know God as Father and Christ as Savior.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

There are Christian saints and Christian sinners. The former are presently born sons of God doing the will of the Father by the faith of Jesus. The latter are Christians by virtue of naming Christ, but are not sons born of God because of present ungodly living.

Only the sons of God in Christ Jesus are justified, and have eternal salvation. All living ungodly are unjustified and must repent of sinning against Christ.

So you can confirm you are promoting sinless perfection?

 

[RBDERRICK]

And yes, generally, a tree is known by its fruit.

This is moral relativism in the sinner's doctrine of salvation unto repentance. It's not doing the truth by Jesus ' gospel of repentance unto salvation.

The life is never made all good as Christ commands, and does not believe in the promises of always doing good, for them that repent of all their sins and trespasses.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

The religion of sinners naming Christ, that rpeaches salvation by faith alone first, may also preach repentance in general, more or less, and on the whole to sin less, but never repent to sin not and walk pleasing Him always.

Jhn 8:29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Th 4:1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Pleasing God is not in general, as the world's religions preach, but is rightly and well done according to His will and word of truth.

When the world speaks of someone being generally a good person, they are speaking of their own being good on the whole, while still doing bad at times.

1Jo 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

When God speaks of His sons doing God, which does not include doing iniquity at any time.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[Fish153]

1Jo 2:28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

The problem is Christians being taught to have confidence in being saved by faith alone while sinning, rather than preaching to simply repent and have confidence in Christ Jesus to sin not.




That we make our salvation and calling sure unto the end, and fall not into temptation to sin.

The whole armour of God is to destroy all temptation and sin not. Armour to deflect unbelief in being saved, is only for sinners not yet repented of all their sins and trespasses.

2Ki 18:21Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.


Satan doesn't care about whether someone believes they are saved or not, but only if someone is living it in Christ Jesus.

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Phl 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The good work begun by Jesus Christ for them that repent, is blameless living, not uninterrrupted faith in being saved, while doing things to be blamed.

Only them living godly in Christ are enemies of the devil, not religious sinners debating over whether they are 'really' saved or not.




That was my constant worry as a sinner, before repenting of my sins against Christ.

When I did repent by His grace, I ceased worrying about being saved or not, and got on with the good work of pleasing Him, and trusting in His same grace to help overcome temptation as He did.

Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The grace of God is to help perform the good work of godly living unto the end. It's not to help perform faith and doctrinal gymnastics about being saved in ungodliness.

Such as believing in being inwardly righteous, while doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

Those who have been taught and trained and learned to never doubt their own salvation, while transgressing the law of Christ, have successfully seared their conscience to conviction of sin and judgment by the Spirit of grace:

Heb 10:29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

"When I did repent by His grace, I ceased worrying about being saved or not, and got on with the good work of pleasing Him, and trusting in His same grace to help overcome temptation as He did."

So, basically, you are saying you put faith in YOUR OWN REPENTANCE, not in Christ alone. By the way, I am not saying someone should go about doubting their own salvation all the time. That is "weak" faith.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13).

The one who is weak in faith is not standing on this verse in faith. "that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life". The reason we can know we have eternal life is because it is a PROMISE of God. Those who "work" to find God's favor are constantly in doubt. They think they are being humble by stating that they do not know if they will go to Heaven. But true humility is ACCEPTING GOD'S PROMISES and living in submission to them. If God says I HAVE eternal life am I going to question it?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall NOT come into condemnation; but IS passed from death unto life". (John 5:24)

Read John 5:24 carefully. Jesus says that he that believes HAS everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into condemnation but IS (has already) passed from death unto life. True humility BELIEVES this PROMISE. We are not saved by our works--we are saved by GRACE through FAITH. When we receive Christ we are BORN AGAIN. Being born-again does not come from any work we could perform. It is a GIFT of God. We have become one of His Children. There was nothing IN US that caused God to save us-----why should we then believe that our salvation will be "maintained" by OUR continued goodness? "As ye have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk ye in him..." We continue in our Christian walk the same way we first started----completely in faith in God's promises. We are "SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS" not BY our works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, as said in my last post, the Spirit was criticizing the doer of the "lukewarm" deeds.

And yes, generally, a tree is known by its fruit. But, of course, trees may not bear "good fruit" when they are diseased, or malnourished, or starved of water and sufficient sunlight. And so, we read of the "carnal infants in Christ" in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 who, though saved, were not bearing "good fruit." Neither were the believers in Galatia, or at Colosse. Nor were the believers in the churches of Sardis or Laodicea.

Paul is very plain, though, that all of a genuinely born-again person's works can be burned up but he will still enter God's kingdom. Just read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. And this is why, though the "angel" of the Laodicean church was so "lukewarm" and "poor, blind, wretched and naked," he was still spoken to as one within God's kingdom and family.



Faith that doesn't produce corresponding works is "dead" in the sense of it being incomplete and thus useless, just as James wrote:

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected [Gk. teleioo -to bring to an end; to complete, or accomplish];

So, James didn't mean to say that a "dead faith" is a faith that is non-existent or has literally died and so is no longer operating but is, simply, faith that has not been fully expressed in a practically useful way.

James's example of Abraham was given in illustration of the uselessness - not the absence - of a faith that doesn't produce corresponding action (vs. 20). The action of Abraham's faith which "justified" him was an external action involving his son, but the justification of the born-again, New Covenant believer arises from the action of their trusting in Christ as Savior and Lord (Romans 10:9-10), not from an external, physical action like Abraham's. No such action is involved in the believer being fully justified in and through Christ.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, it doesn't seem to me that the apostle James was intending to say anything about lost salvation, or works-salvation, but simply that faith is properly completed and made useful by corresponding action.



Well, simply asserting this doesn't make it so...



How is it a delusion in light of the many instances of criticism and correction given to genuine believers throughout the New Testament? Just read 1 Corinthians 3. Or Revelation 2-3.



But, they aren't. The Spirit doesn't say to the Laodicean church, "You have been spat out of God's mouth." No, despite being "lukewarm," and "poor, wretched, blind and naked" spiritually, the Laodicean believers had not yet been spat of God's mouth!

Revelation 3:16
16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will [not have already] spit you out of My mouth.

Revelation 3:19
19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

The whole point of the Spirit's words to the "angel of the church of Laodicea" was to express love and prevent God from having to spit the "angel" (i.e. Pastor/Elder/Bishop and his church) out of His mouth.

Continued below.

Jesus did not generally die on the cross for our sins, nor is He generally speaking resurrected from the dead.

This is the voice of stangers for another gospel of faith alone salvation unto general repentance, that is not whole nor complete in this life.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

And yet they that preach such unfinished repentance and righteousness, never ever preach their own salvation and jsutification is onl in general, but rather is always preached as being entirely complete and eternal all at once...

It's the same for them that preach a sinful body of flesh as source for sins bodily, but never ever preach the body as any source for doing good. When sinning they dishonor the body for cause, but when doing good deeds for fruit, they honor only only their own faith.

 

[Tenchi]

This is moral relativism in the sinner's doctrine of salvation unto repentance. It's not doing the truth by Jesus ' gospel of repentance unto salvation.

The life is never made all good as Christ commands, and does not believe in the promises of always doing good, for them that repent of all their sins and trespasses.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

The religion of sinners naming Christ, that rpeaches salvation by faith alone first, may also preach repentance in general, more or less, and on the whole to sin less, but never repent to sin not and walk pleasing Him always.

Jhn 8:29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Th 4:1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Pleasing God is not in general, as the world's religions preach, but is rightly and well done according to His will and word of truth.

When the world speaks of someone being generally a good person, they are speaking of their own being good on the whole, while still doing bad at times.

1Jo 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

When God speaks of His sons doing God, which does not include doing iniquity at any time.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

This all ignores everything I've written to you and shows, in doing so, how unable you are to properly defend your views. There's little point in writing more, since this is so evidently the case.

 

[RBDERRICK]

See: Romans 7:14-22, Galatians 5:17. Both indicate otherwise.

God does not write indications of things pertaining to the soul and eternal life. He declares them plainly.

Faith alone apart from deeds, separates the soul and character from what they do. Not God.

Romans 7 exposes sinners with double heartedness in their faith, not justified sons disobeying God.

Rom 7:24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The Scripture cries out for deliverance from double mindedness, while the faith alone doctrine preaches it for life. The double heart is wretched toward God. Those set with it for life make it a comfortable religion.

Doing evil is the result, the product, of yielding to sinful temptation of some sort. See James 1:14-16.

Of course, which is why the double hearted still do evil, because they only repent with half a heart.

Old lust still remains in the sinner's heart to be tempted and sin by. It remains untaken away by Christ, until all sins and trespasses are repented of with a whole heart for Jesus' sake.

Doing evil is not itself the temptation to do what is evil.

Temptation by lust to sin, is committing the act within the heart.

Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

It's very...interesting - and telling - that in discussing your claims about Revelation 3:14-21, you have left the passage entirely and are referring to the Old Testament where God speaks to Israel under the Old Covenant, not to the Church under the "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

AllScripture teaches Scripture. The old covenant likewise condemned double hearted lukewarmness toward God.

Psa 12:2They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Hosea{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

And also with the OT, the new and living way of Jesus Christ does not allow for transgression of the law of Christ without repentance.

{18:27} Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. {18:28} Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

But you were making your case for your remarks from the passage in Revelation 3. If you intended a broad, whole -Scripture look at Christian living, you shouldn't have begun by confining your remarks to this one passage.

Any definitive Scripture is a good place to begin teaching the doctrine of Christ, without excluding any Scripture in the Bible. Esepcially any Scripture by Jesus of His NT doctrine.

I.e. if the Scripture says it, then it is so. Arguing against the common and grammatical sense of it, is the playground of the unbelieving.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The person's works are judged to be lukewarm, which judges the person lukewarm, who is spued out of Jesus' body by His mouth.

Simple.

This entirely ignores my point. The Spirit says nothing to the "angel" at Laodicea about the deeds of the Laodicean believers or about the deeds of the "lukewarm" "angel" over the church. Just read the passage.



Because this is what the Bible plainly describes. See above.



This doesn't change the fact of the passage that I observed: The Spirit in his comments to the Laodicean "angel" never says that the Laodiceans did both good and evil things. It is eisegesis to force into the passage what isn't there. Doing so is a fast and sure route to false doctrine.



You're speaking past my point here. Why is that?

Again, the Spirit defines "lukewarmness" as spiritual complacency and apathy and spiritual blindness born of affluence, not doing good and evil together, as you asserted.

Revelation 3:17
17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,



Again, this speaks right past my point. Why are you doing this?

Doing evil is the result, the product, of yielding to sinful temptation of some sort. See James 1:14-16. Doing evil is not itself the temptation to do what is evil.

In any case, you have misquoted Genesis 3:5 quite badly. Do you think this will actually help you understand God's Truth?



This also speaks past my point. And ignores my question. Why do you do this?



It's very...interesting - and telling - that in discussing your claims about Revelation 3:14-21, you have left the passage entirely and are referring to the Old Testament where God speaks to Israel under the Old Covenant, not to the Church under the "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:19-22).



This is nowhere indicated in Revelation 3:14-21. All of what you say above is entirely forced into the passage.



This isn't what the Spirit speaking to the "angel" of the Laodicean church says. All of this above is your unwarranted addition to the passage.






This, too, speaks past my point entirely.

These things have already been debated back and forth without any change. No need to keep rehashing them.

The debate is concluding, unless something new is brought into it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

??? This doesn't make a lot of sense, to me.

Jesus commands things explicitly, not only in general.

Eph{4:28} Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

The command not to steal, is not to steal at all, not only in general.

Neither is His command to make the tree good or evil, only generally in part.

It's a command to do either/or. It's a rebuke to them doing both. The same warning to the lukewarm not either cold nor hot.

I can think of many other examples of people who are clearly not what they are doing.

So, then, it is a strange thing to me to read your assertion that "We are what we are doing."

God judges us by our works, not what we believe we are. We are what God says we are, which is by our works.

Thieves are stealing, and those stealing are thieves.

Scripture also denies your assertion, describing born-again people who were not living according to the truth

Born again of false religion, not of the true God. No son of God is committing sin with the devil.

of who they were in Jesus Christ.

Who they are is a doer of evil. Who they are not, is a son in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

They are as babes in Christ, not are babes in Christ.

They are as babes only in that that are being fed milk. And being carnal, they refuse to drink it.

All babes in Christ are able to drink His milk daily. They are not babes in Christ, that do drink His milk at all. No matter how much they are spoon fed.

They are hearers of the word only, not doers, because the milk of Christ is to repent of sinning unto saving faith toward God, and they repent not.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

1 Corinthians 3:9
9 ...you are God's field, God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:16
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

And such are them that repent of sinning, to drink the spiritual milk of God in Christ Jesus, with power to become sons of God in deed and in truth.

1Co 3:3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Carnal children of disobedience are not spiritual babes in Christ.

No man is outwardly carnal and inwardly pure. That is the great delusion of inward righteousness by faith alone, while doing unrighteousness with the world.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So, it is just flat-out false to say that "Christ has no diseased and corrupt members by sin."

Not Jesus Christ.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

2 Cor 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Diseased in mortal flesh perhaps, but certainly not in the heart and soul:

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Mar 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

What we see here is the preaching of the lukewarm, declaring both good and bad works in their body, whose Christ and physician does not heal to make whole, but only to make less sick.
Those who are righteous in their own eyes, while still doing sins of the world, Jesus cannot so much as call to repentance to drink of His pure milk of the word of truth.

This includes the Jews righteous by law alone, and Christians righteous by faith alone.

This is all he has as "joint-heirs" with him. It is only by virtue of Christ's imputed perfect righteousness (not our own imperfect righteousness) that we are made acceptable to God.

Only to them that repent of dead works, so that they are imputed His righteousness without dead works.

God's righteousness is never with dead works. Only the god of this world accepts both good and bad works.

The entire Body of Believers is constituted of converted sinners.

Not the body of believers in the righteous Christ, but only the body of believers in another Christ.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
There is no sinful member in the body of Christ Jesus.

Dead limbs are cut off, and lukwarm limbs are spit out.

There are many great differences between our Savior and ourselves.

Heb 2:11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Eph 4:2There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is no difference between the righteous Savior Jesus Christ and His sanctified saints, but all are one Head and body.

So it is with the sinning Christ and his sinning believers, being all one and the same head and body.

You can continue to preach your sinful body of believers all you wish. I am only too glad to show it's opposition to the Scriptures of God at every turn.

 

[RBDERRICK]

On our own, we are just wretched sinners deserving of hell.

True. Whether the unbeliever, or them trusting in their own faith alone. They are all on their own, in their own sins and trespasses unrepented of.

Neither of these verses establish your assertion that the unrepentant in Christ are cut off from him. The unrepentant outside of Christ are another matter, however.

All those sinning in the world are cut off from Christ and dead toward God.

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Heb 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Which begins with any man's first act of rebellion and disobedience to God after coming into the world.

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ezek 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

In Matthew 5:29, Jesus is speaking to unsaved people still under the Old Covenant (he had not yet died for the sins of all mankind).

Once He did die at the hands of sinners, all sinners of the world are condemned with them guilty of shedding His innocent blood.

Only them that repent of sinning against Him by His resurrection from the dead, are forgiven from their old sins and saved from sinning.

And John 15:6 describes a lost person in contrast to the saved person, not a saved person who becomes lost.

Only saved persons are grafted into the vine. Only limbs of the vine can be cut off from the vine, for sinning against the vine.

Rom 11:19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Nevertheless, whether lost and never saved or once saved, all doing dead works are dead to God by sinning and trespassing against Him.

Whether

No, genuineness as in, "Clearly indwelt by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 8:16; Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:9-14; 1 John 4:13; John 14:16-17, 26, etc.).



It isn't "ministerial errors" that are in view in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Read the passage carefully.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1Co 3:5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

The exhortation and warning is for ministering to the body of Christ.

"No man," (1) "any man," (x3) "each man's" (x2). These are phrases general/universal in their scope, not referring only to those in ministry, but to any man, which is to say, "every man," or "all men" (and women).

Not all men are ministering for Christ, and certainly not all men will be saved by burning their dead works after the grave.

Now is the time to repent of doing evil, that they may be destroyed, but the soul born again and saved from sinning against God.

2 Cor 6:2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Psa 95:8Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Heb 3:13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So you can confirm you are promoting sinless perfection?

Not the kind of heaven's sinless perfection, that the sinning imperfect accuse Jesus and His brethren of preaching. They say the perfecting of Christ and His saints in obedience on earth, is claiming to be perfected with God on the throne of heaven.

They do so in order to justify not doing His righteousness at all times on earth. Nor believing in doing so.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Rom 10:9For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The principle difference between the two opposing gospels is simple: That of commanded repentance with a whole heart from all dead works unto salvation from sinning, vs that of believing in being eternally saved unto gradual repentance in part.
Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Hosea{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

I preach the saints being perfected in nonsinning obedience to God. I do not preach imperfect sinning and disobedience.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Not the kind of heaven's sinless perfection, that the sinning imperfect accuse Jesus and His brethren of preaching. They say the perfecting of Christ and His saints in obedience on earth, is claiming to be perfected with God on the throne of heaven.

They do so in order to justify not doing His righteousness at all times on earth. Nor believing in doing so.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Rom 10:9For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The principle difference between the two opposing gospels is simple: That of commanded repentance with a whole heart from all dead works unto salvation from sinning, vs that of believing in being eternally saved unto gradual repentance in part.
Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Hosea{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

I preach the saints being perfected in nonsinning obedience to God. I do not preach imperfect sinning and disobedience.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Thank you for clarifying. I will add you to the list.

 

[Tenchi]

This is moral relativism in the sinner's doctrine of salvation unto repentance. It's not doing the truth by Jesus ' gospel of repentance unto salvation.

??? I don't know why you write these statements. You just assert them as though doing so makes them true. It's very strange. Never does merely asserting a thing make it true.

In actuality, observing that "not every tree bears fruit" is not "moral relativism" but the plain fact of the matter. And this is so for the very well-known reasons I noted. That you don't want to acknowledge the realities of spiritual immaturity, or the effects of false teaching, or the challenge of well-established habits of sinful thought and action, doesn't mean that they don't exist and sometimes badly affect the Christian's "fruit bearing." And calling these things "moral relativism" is nonsensical.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

These are statements made about OT Israel, not the NT born-again child of God. As such, they don't apply to New Covenant Christians. Surely, this is obvious.

And yet they that preach such unfinished repentance and righteousness, never ever preach their own salvation and jsutification is onl in general, but rather is always preached as being entirely complete and eternal all at once...

"In general" doesn't mean incomplete or not eternal. Where did you get the idea that this is what "in general" meant?

It's the same for them that preach a sinful body of flesh as source for sins bodily, but never ever preach the body as any source for doing good. When sinning they dishonor the body for cause, but when doing good deeds for fruit, they honor only only their own faith.

This is a word-salad, as far as I can tell. I have no idea who you mean in the quotation above. I've never suggested the body can't do good. It can; so long as the Holy Spirit is in control of it. And what in the world do you mean by "When sinning they dishonor the body for cause"? What's more, "doing good deeds" is not done "for fruit" but is "fruit."

God does not write indications of things pertaining to the soul and eternal life. He declares them plainly.

??? One can indicate a thing quite plainly. Why are you treating "indications" as though this isn't true? Very odd. This is also a statement that distracts from the point I made.

Faith alone apart from deeds, separates the soul and character from what they do. Not God.

I have no idea what this means.

Romans 7 exposes sinners with double heartedness in their faith, not justified sons disobeying God.

False. In Romans 7:14-22, Paul is describing his own inner struggle as a born-again person - as a "justified son," as you put it. He writes in the present tense all throughout the passage, describing a condition he was encountering as he wrote his letter to the Romans as an apostle. Here's an example:

Romans 7:14-17
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am [present tense] of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing [present tense verb phrase], I do not understand; for I am not practicing [present continuous verb phrase] what I would like to do, but I am [present tense] doing the very thing I hate.

It is very clear from the present and continuous verb tense in which Paul wrote the above quotation that he was not speaking of a past condition, prior to his salvation, but one he experienced in the present as an apostle of Jesus Christ. Your claim above, then, is just flat-out false.

Of course, which is why the double hearted still do evil, because they only repent with half a heart.

This is only one of several possible reasons for sin. See above.

Old lust still remains in the sinner's heart to be tempted and sin by. It remains untaken away by Christ, until all sins and trespasses are repented of with a whole heart for Jesus' sake.

Change in the born-again believer happens over time, which is why terms of growth are used in describing the Christian life (e.g. Ephesians 4:12-15). This process of change means not all sin is totally eradicated in a single instant at the point of conversion, as you seem to think. I've already pointed out in earlier posts several Bible passages that make this clear. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 is a good example.

Temptation by lust to sin, is committing the act within the heart.

Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This verse in Matthew 5 doesn't describe temptation but an inward yielding to it that is the precursor to outward sin. Just read the verse and ask yourself, "Where does this verse mention temptation?" It doesn't. Why, then, are you using it as though it does?

AllScripture teaches Scripture.

This is, on its face, an obvious and useless statement. It's akin to saying, "All chemistry texts teach chemistry." This statement is obvious and explains nothing. It doesn't acknowledge that there are inorganic and organic chemistry texts, overlapping in some areas of chemistry but not in others. It doesn't recognize that some chemistry texts are very outdated. It doesn't take into account that some chemistry texts narrowly focus on only a few aspects of chemistry while others offer the widest possible spectrum of chemical knowledge. Likewise, "All Scripture teaches Scripture" does nothing to explain or acknowledge that some Scripture is poetry, some is historical account, some is wisdom literature, some is apocalyptic and prophetic. These all differ from one another in style and purpose, not all speaking to every topic in Scripture equally, or even at all. As well, some Scripture is focused on a single group, some on a particular time or event, and some on individuals and do not warrant, as a result, a universal application. So, then, "All Scripture teaches Scripture" is merely obvious, offering no explanation of any of the important facts of Scripture above. Why, then, make the statement?

And also with the OT, the new and living way of Jesus Christ does not allow for transgression of the law of Christ without repentance.

Yes, it does. This isn't to say that under the New Covenant sin is approved of by God, only that sin doesn't have the same effect on the sinner under the New Covenant that it had under the Old Covenant. I've already cited Scripture demonstrating this in earlier posts.

Any definitive Scripture is a good place to begin teaching the doctrine of Christ, without excluding any Scripture in the Bible. Esepcially any Scripture by Jesus of His NT doctrine.

This just deflects my point.

I.e. if the Scripture says it, then it is so. Arguing against the common and grammatical sense of it, is the playground of the unbelieving.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The person's works are judged to be lukewarm, which judges the person lukewarm, who is spued out of Jesus' body by His mouth.

Revelation 3:15 says "I will spit you out of my mouth," not "I have spat you out of my mouth." Such an act of God was contingent on how the Laodicean "angel" acted on the message given him from the Spirit through the apostle John. At the time of the giving of the message, the "being spit out of God's mouth" had not yet happened and was what the message was intended to prevent (vs. 18-19). Why are you ignoring/denying this plain fact?

hese things have already been debated back and forth without any change. No need to keep rehashing them.

The debate is concluding, unless something new is brought into it.

But you haven't really debated; you've just contradicted and spoken past the points of those with views different from your own.

Jesus commands things explicitly, not only in general.

This is a false dichotomy. "Explicit" and "in general" are not mutually-exclusive things. One can be very explicit about general things. For example, if a doctor says, "Vitamin C is important for good health and everyone ought to take some every day," he has been both explicit - he's stated himself clearly, leaving no uncertainty about the benefit of vitamin C - and general "everyone ought to take some." In the same way, Jesus is also sometimes both explicit and general in his remarks.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

The command not to steal, is not to steal at all, not only in general.

Neither is His command to make the tree good or evil, only generally in part.

It's a command to do either/or. It's a rebuke to them doing both. The same warning to the lukewarm not either cold nor hot.

??? This is a distinction without a difference that you're making here. The general command "Do not steal" implicitly entails "at all." There are no accompanying qualifications to this command in the Ten Commandments - no exceptions or caveats - but, across-the-board, the command forbids stealing.

In any case, I've never asserted that Christ was commanding the "tree" to be good only in part. I simply pointed out that both in the case of actual trees and in the lives of Christians, there are hindrances to "fruit-bearing."

God judges us by our works, not what we believe we are. We are what God says we are, which is by our works.

A man who builds a house is a house-builder, but this isn't all that he is. He may also be a husband, and father, and uncle, and a gardener, too. Likewise, the Christian who sins is a sinner, but this isn't all that he is. He is also a child of God, a new creature in Christ, a saint, priest and king unto God, etc. (Romans 8:15; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Revelation 1:6). And so, as I've pointed out already from Scripture, there are many instances of saints who sin in the NT who are regarded, nonetheless, as saints. In fact, the apostle John wrote that any believer who denied that they sin was self-deceived and devoid of the truth.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Notice that John included himself in his statement, here ("we" and "us"). And he wrote in the present, continuous tense also, indicating that in both the present and the future, it was, and would be, impossible for a believer to claim they had no sin.

Born again of false religion, not of the true God. No son of God is committing sin with the devil.

See? Just more flat-out contradiction both of my statement about Scripture and of Scripture itself. But mere bald-faced denial of the plain statement of Scripture doesn't make your denial true; it simply exposes you as badly in error. See above.

They are as babes in Christ, not are babes in Christ.

Nope. This is a deceitful rewording of what Paul wrote.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brothers, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.
3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?

What does Paul call the fractious believers at Corinth in verse 1? Brothers. What did Paul mean to say when he also called these Christian brothers "babes in Christ"? Not, of course, that they were physical babies (he calls them men, after all - vs. 3) but that in their conduct and attitudes were profoundly immature, spiritually. And then Paul goes on to describe these carnal, spiritually immature, but in-Christ brothers "God's field and buildings" (vs. 9) and "the temple of God" (vs. 16) and says, "You are Christ's" (vs. 23). Nothing could be clearer than that Paul thought the carnal babes in Christ he was sharply criticizing were also born-again children of God. It's just glaringly obvious, therefore, that your idea that sin excludes the believer from God's kingdom and family is something Paul neither believed nor taught. Why, then, do you espouse such a clearly erroneous idea about sin and the believer?

And such are them that repent of sinning, to drink the spiritual milk of God in Christ Jesus, with power to become sons of God in deed and in truth.

This isn't what Paul wrote in the chapter. Nowhere in the chapter does he predicate the continued adoption of the sinful Corinthian believers into God's family on their repentance from their sin. Instead, he just points out repeatedly the incongruity of their sinful conduct with their identity as in-Christ children of God. And, again, the apostle John has the same view as Paul about the fact that saints do sin:

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So it is that your sinless perfection view diverges widely from Scripture. Why do you hold such a view, then? It just burdens you and those upon whom you would impose it with falsehood, fear, legalism and deep hypocrisy and keeps you far from the God of grace, love, patience and faithfulness that the Bible describes.

Carnal children of disobedience are not spiritual babes in Christ.

The apostle Paul says they are. And he knew far better than you the truth of things, I think.

No man is outwardly carnal and inwardly pure. That is the great delusion of inward righteousness by faith alone, while doing unrighteousness with the world

This is just another false dichotomy unsupported by God's word. No born-again believer willfully maintains a life of sin; but, they can't truthfully claim to be utterly sin-free in their daily living, either. Positionally, in Christ, Christians are fully justified and sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:30), but this spiritual condition will take a lifetime of learning and training to manifest in a significant (but never perfect) degree in the believer's daily, practical living. And so, the NT is filled with criticisms and correction of born-again people.

Not the body of believers in the righteous Christ, but only the body of believers in another Christ.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
There is no sinful member in the body of Christ Jesus.

Dead limbs are cut off, and lukwarm limbs are spit out.

Nope. See above.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You can continue to preach your sinful body of believers all you wish. I am only too glad to show it's opposition to the Scriptures of God at every turn.

But, you haven't. Instead, I've simply pointed out what God's word plainly says, and you have flatly contradicted it. The result of your doing this is that you've exposed yourself as the one of whom the apostle John wrote in the verse I just cited above.

All those sinning in the world are cut off from Christ and dead toward God.

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

??? Where is the phrase "cut off" in Isaiah 59:2? Nowhere.

Once He did die at the hands of sinners, all sinners of the world are condemned with them guilty of shedding His innocent blood.

This deflects from my point. I shall repeat it, then:

"In Matthew 5:29, Jesus is speaking to unsaved people still under the Old Covenant (he had not yet died for the sins of all mankind)."

The exhortation and warning is for ministering to the body of Christ.

Since you avoided my point about this from the text of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 3, I shall repeat them:

"No man," (1) "any man," (x3) "each man's" (x2). These are phrases general/universal in their scope, not referring only to those in ministry, but to any man, which is to say, "every man," or "all men" (and women)."

As I already pointed out, Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 extend to all believers who stand upon the spiritual foundation of Christ and who, in their daily living, "build" upon that foundation either with "wood, hay, and stubble" or "gold, silver and precious stones." I understand how inconvenient this passage is to your sinless perfection view and why it's necessary for you to deny the universality of its plain declaration, but warping God's word to serve your false, preconceived ideas is a very dangerous practice.

 

[RBDERRICK]

trees may not bear "good fruit" when they are diseased, or malnourished, or starved of water and sufficient sunlight.

That's why they are bad trees of bad works rejected of the Lord.

We are not speaking of the body, but of the soul. The soul is good or bad by the works done with the body.

Jhn 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

When Jesus is speaking of the tree being made good or bad, He is speaking of the soul and life of a person, which we choose.

We don't make the body, but are all made natural and mortally the same Christ.

God sees what the soul looks like. Carnal man only sees what the body looks like.

 

[Tenchi]

That's why they are bad trees of bad works rejected of the Lord.

No, they are sick trees, malnourished trees, young trees and so cannot bear fruit, not bad trees, necessarily.

We are not speaking of the body, but of the soul. The soul is good or bad by the works done with the body.

No, the soul is spiritually-regenerated by the Holy Spirit and thus made acceptable to God; the soul is not made so by works:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

When Jesus is speaking of the tree being made good or bad, He is speaking of the soul and life of a person, which we choose.

Actually, in context, Jesus was speaking of the hypocritical Pharisees and not of Christians, at all. Jesus was pointing out that when the heart of a person is like that of the Pharisees, it brings forth the same sort of bad "fruit." He wasn't saying anything about the means whereby a person is made one of God's born-again children.