Lukewarm believers and faith

[RandyK]

Rev
{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Notice in His address to the churches, Jesus only says He knows our works. He never says, I know your faith. That's because the righteous Lord judges our faith only by our works, as in James 2.

That's a misnomer. In judging our works Christ is judging our faith. True faith produces good works and evidences a commitment to Christ, as opposed to the choice to live in our independent carnal ways.

If judgment was purely by "works," then people could start and stop them, trusting in a false principle of "grace" rather than in a complete commitment to Christ.

Lukewarm faith of lukewarm believers therefore, is known by works, that are neither cold nor hot, neither good nor evil.

Lukewarm works neither do only good, nor only evil, but do both evil and good.

Yes, that's the point I was making, that good works and evil works do not get covered by "grace." They reflect an incomplete commitment, which is not acceptable for Salvation.

But I agree with the gist of your post. A true commitment to Christ is actually a commitment *only to the good,* and *only to the will of God.* It is a commitment to die to ourselves and to live only according to Christ. Good word!

 

[RBDERRICK]

So, basically, you are saying you put faith in YOUR OWN REPENTANCE, not in Christ alone.

I recieved the righteous faith of Jesus Christ, when I repented of my own works from before. I no more put any trust in my old faith as a sinner, nor in any faith of sinners.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The faith of Jesus Christ in the heart is to now do His righteousness, and sin not. The faith of sinners is to continuing sinning more or less.

If any man will believe Jesus Christ is risen from the dead and repent of their sins and trespasses with a whole heart, then they too can certainly recieve the promised gospel faith of Jesus Christ, to now please both the Father and the Son, and sin not.

 

[RBDERRICK]

By the way, I am not saying someone should go about doubting their own salvation all the time. That is "weak" faith.

That is dead faith. Only with sin is there doubt.

Rom 14:23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

He doesn't need to be told to try and doubt not, but to seek the repentance from all sins and doubting, that is only granted by Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Unrepented or half-repented believers naming Christ, still battle over whether they are saved or not.

Repented saints only battle overcoming sin and temptation in obedience to the Father and Son.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13).

True. For them that repent to recieve the faith and life and Spirit of Jesus Christ toward God.

Kowing the Lord and His salvation from sin is no longer the battle for them that do repent as commanded. That battle is only ongoing for them that repent not, or only gradually in part.

There is no faith nor Spirit or life of Jesus Christ in them doing iniquity with the world.

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Heb 7:25 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

The doctrine of justification by faith alone teaches believers to sear their conscience to their sins, and work harder to believe they are always saved despite their sins and trespasses.

Heb 10:29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The one who is weak in faith is not standing on this verse in faith. "that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life".

Standing on verses is convincing oneself to believe in words alone, that are not written in the heart.

God does not write His law upon the hard hearts and minds of them that repent not, and continue in sins and trespasses.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone teaches the faith of sinners to become stronger by standing on a promise, that is not their own because of iniquity.

The doctrine of justification by works preaches standing on the Rock Christ Jesus, to be strong in the promise of overcoming all temaptions and trespasses, even as Jesus in the flesh:

Jhn 16:33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 John 5:5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those who "work" to find God's favor are constantly in doubt.

Those who work to believe they are saved while sinning, ought be in doubt, lest they have successfully seared their conscience to any sin and trespass present and future.

Only old sins repented of are forgiven and washed away the Lamb of God.

All present and future sinning is condemned with the world, without respect of persons.

Heb 10:28For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

God is not unrighteous to take vengeance upon His people for sins and trespassed of the world, else He could not judge the world.

God would be unrighteous to judge the world, but not His people doing the same things.

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The judgment of the Lord's people will be first at the seat of Christ, where He will separate the righteous wheat from the sinning tares.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are not saved by our works-

No man is saved with their own works.

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

We are saved by repenting from our works.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Being born-again does not come from any work we could perform.

Repenting from our own dead works is not a performance, but a ceasing.

No man is born again of God by Jesus Christ, with their own dead works. But only without those works.

A repented man is made righteous by Christ without his old sins and trespasses.

A righteous man is justified by Christ with his new works of righteousness and true holiness.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Th 4:1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

It is a GIFT of God.

The righteous faith of Jesus is the gift of God by grace to them that repent of all their own works.

The saving faith toward God, is not of ourselves, but only of Jesus Christ.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Our works are by our faith alone. Jesus works are by His faith alone. We repent of our own works and faith, to recieve His faith and do His works.

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We are "SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS" not BY our works.

Jesus Christ saves unto good works alone.

Another Christ saves unto good and bad works, more or less than before.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

If our works continue, then our justification with good and bad works is lukewarm.

Why do people who preach continued sinning, also preach their own perfect salvation and complete justification, as though without sinning? It must be the supernatural power and magic of having faith alone, to separate works from faith and spirit.

2Co 4:2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

They think they are being humble by stating that they do not know if they will go to Heaven.

And honest.

And sinners naming Christ and standing on faith alone, who declare they know they will sin more, also think they are being humble, and are likewise being honest.

It's the latter that are not also decieving themselves about entering into glory with their sins, while putting on a show of humility about their own sinning against God and His Christ.

Col 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

But true humility is ACCEPTING GOD'S PROMISES and living in submission to them.

Submission to a promise, without meeting the necessary condition, is claiming a promise without having it.

It's standing on a verse of words only heard, that are promised only to others that do them.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

If God says I HAVE eternal life am I going to question it?

Then why when God says we must repent of all our sins and trespasses, to have eternal life, does any doubt it, or even deny it?

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall NOT come into condemnation; but IS passed from death unto life". (John 5:24)

No one is passed from death unto life, that is not passed from doing evil to doing good.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Tit 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The soul that is sinning against God, is dead to both the Father and the Son.

Read John 5:24 carefully. Jesus says that he that believes HAS everlasting life,

No one sinning against Christ, is believing Jesus Christ. Only them that repent for His sake recieve His faith of righteousness toward God.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

and SHALL NOT come into condemnation

Only the unfaithful doers of unrighteousness have condemnation. Only the faithful doers of righteousness shall not be condemned.

but IS (has already) passed from death unto life.

No man is passed from death toward God, that is not passed from sinning against God.

True humility BELIEVES this PROMISE.

True deception believes that the promise to them that repent, is for those continuing in sins and trespasses with faith.

When we receive Christ we are BORN AGAIN.

No man recieves nor has nor knows Christ in sins and trespasses.

1Jo 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Not Jesus Christ.

There was nothing IN US that caused God to save us-

There is unrepented lust in man unrepented, that causes God to reject man. What is no longer in man causes God to save the soul.

There is no old lust in the hearts of them, that repent of all sins and trespasses. Jesus Christ has taken it away to have a wholly new and clean heart of God.

Jhn 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

----why should we then believe that our salvation will be "maintained" by OUR continued goodness?

Rather, why should any believe that their salvation will be maintained by their continued badness?

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1 Thess{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Salvation is maintained by keeping the faith of Jesus Christ. Justification is maintained by doing His good works.

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

"As ye have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk ye in him..."

As we recieve Jesus Christ in purity of heart and holiness of life as newborn babes, so we must continue faithful in obedience to grow in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Tit 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God is to forgive past sins repented of, purify the heart new, and live godly by faith in Jesus Christ.

The grace of the world's Christ is to cover sins with an old heart of lust, and live sort of godly or ungodly by one's own faith alone. Hopefully less godly than before, but not promised nor needed to be resurrected with the world's dead.

Afterall, everyone is resurrected from the dead. Whether it's unto life or shame is by what grace is trusted in to live by in in this life.

We continue in our Christian walk the same way we first started----completely in faith in God's promises.

The walk of sinners begins with sinning in the world.

The Christian sinners' walk begins with naming Christ and sinning, more or less than before.

The Christian saints' walk begins with Jesus Christ not sinning, all new and nothing from before.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

 

[Fish153]

And honest.

And sinners naming Christ and standing on faith alone, who declare they know they will sin more, also think they are being humble, and are likewise being honest.

It's the latter that are not also decieving themselves about entering into glory with their sins, while putting on a show of humility about their own sinning against God and His Christ.

Col 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.




Submission to a promise, without meeting the necessary condition, is claiming a promise without having it.

It's standing on a verse of words only heard, that are promised only to others that do them.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.




Then why when God says we must repent of all our sins and trespasses, to have eternal life, does any doubt it, or even deny it?

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



No one is passed from death unto life, that is not passed from doing evil to doing good.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Tit 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The soul that is sinning against God, is dead to both the Father and the Son.


No one sinning against Christ, is believing Jesus Christ. Only them that repent for His sake recieve His faith of righteousness toward God.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Only the unfaithful doers of unrighteousness have condemnation. Only the faithful doers of righteousness shall not be condemned.



No man is passed from death toward God, that is not passed from sinning against God.




True deception believes that the promise to them that repent, is for those continuing in sins and trespasses with faith.



No man recieves nor has nor knows Christ in sins and trespasses.

1Jo 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Not Jesus Christ.



There is unrepented lust in man unrepented, that causes God to reject man. What is no longer in man causes God to save the soul.

There is no old lust in the hearts of them, that repent of all sins and trespasses. Jesus Christ has taken it away to have a wholly new and clean heart of God.

Jhn 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,




Rather, why should any believe that their salvation will be maintained by their continued badness?

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1 Thess{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Salvation is maintained by keeping the faith of Jesus Christ. Justification is maintained by doing His good works.

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



As we recieve Jesus Christ in purity of heart and holiness of life as newborn babes, so we must continue faithful in obedience to grow in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Tit 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God is to forgive past sins repented of, purify the heart new, and live godly by faith in Jesus Christ.

The grace of the world's Christ is to cover sins with an old heart of lust, and live sort of godly or ungodly by one's own faith alone. Hopefully less godly than before, but not promised nor needed to be resurrected with the world's dead.

Afterall, everyone is resurrected from the dead. Whether it's unto life or shame is by what grace is trusted in to live by in in this life.

The walk of sinners begins with sinning in the world.

The Christian sinners' walk begins with naming Christ and sinning, more or less than before.

The Christian saints' walk begins with Jesus Christ not sinning, all new and nothing from before.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Your whole Christian life is entirely subjective. You think you have repented from all sin.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." (1 John 1: 8-10)

It sounds like you are preaching some kind of "sinless perfection" doctrine. That you no longer sin. If you believe that you are very deceived. You seem to believe that your receive the gift of God in exchange for repentance.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, UNTO OBEDIENCE and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1: 2)

Please read 1 Peter 1:2 carefully. Peter seems to have it backwards from what you are declaring. He says that election leads to sanctification, which then leads to obedience and repentance. You think repenting leads to you receiving a gift---when Peter says that receiving the gift leads to sanctification and obedience. Your Christianity is backwards from what the real truth of the Gospel is.

A truly regenerated person does not believe in Justification by faith and seek to sin as a result. The truly regenerated person is CHANGED in heart and so thankful and filled with love for Christ for his GIFT of justification that he turns from sin to Jesus in love---like the woman who poured perfume on Jesus' feet.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The posts are becoming much longer and more diverse. I'll be trying to respond according to specific topics, to stay focused. We can continue with any or all you like.

In actuality, observing that "not every tree bears fruit" is not "moral relativism"

The argument is against making Jesus' doctrine and command to be only generally speaking, which is only on the whole good or bad, all good or bad.

but the plain fact of the matter. And this is so for the very well-known reasons I noted. That you don't want to acknowledge the realities of spiritual immaturity,

I teach spiritual babes of Scripture, not spiritual duplicity of continued lukewarm sinners, and the double hearted.

All in Christ Jesus are born wholly new and pure of God in heart and in life. Newborn sons grow by learning obdience through all trials and temptations, the same as the Son was perfected on earth.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

No sinning child of disobedience is a son of God in Christ Jesus.

or the effects of false teaching,

It's true that some doctrines teach continued sinning in life, without repentance of all sinning for Jesus' sake.

2Ti 2:16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

or the challenge of well-established habits of sinful thought and action, doesn't mean that they don't exist and sometimes badly affect the Christian's "fruit bearing."

All well-established old lust and sins are cut away all at once by circumcision of Christ, for them that repent of all sinning now.

Deu 10:16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The Lord's hand and sword are quick and powerful and complete in one perfect cut of lust from the heart.

Those that preach only gradual repentance to sin less, have a dull circumcision with hands of sinful men.

These are statements made about OT Israels, not the NT

So, the commandment of old to repent from all transgressions, is no longer in the new? Does the command of whole heartedness no longer apply as well?

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

The commandments of the Lord remain the same from the old to the new: For all the heart, soul, and life, not only generally speaking and in part.

Acts{17:30} And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The command's completeness is not changed. The change is now for all men on earth to repent, and not only Israel after the flesh.

By the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all men can now repent of their transgressions in His name, and recieve the promise forgiveness of all old sins, and full reconciation with God.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

For them that would repent for Jesus' sake, to live holily all the days of our lives by His grace and faith, the command to repent is with promise.

For the hard-hearted, the command to repent remains an offence, whether repent of all or even on in part.

Psa 95:7For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

"In general" doesn't mean incomplete or not eternal. Where did you get the idea that this is what "in general" meant?

Then why say the command to repent of all sinning is old, and no more commanded by God?

If your definition of 'general' means all the tree made good or evil, and repentance is of all our transgressions, then just say so.

Or, you are teaching the standard definition of generally, and on the whole, which is not completely and wholly.

 

[RBDERRICK]

not the NT born-again child of God.

The command to repent only applies to doing evil, not to doing good. Sons of God are made all new and pure from lust of heart and sin and trespass. Sons are commanded to continue in the faith of obedience to the Son and the Father, and fall not to temptation and sin as the children of disobedience.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

No man doing unrighteousness and evil is born of God, whether Jew or Greek.

As such, they don't apply to New Covenant Christians. Surely, this is obvious.

There are Christian sinners that generally repent at their own will and time. There are Christian saints that repent by commandment of God all at once.

The former recieves the faith of man with vain religion of sinners. The latter recieves the righteous faith of Jesus Christ with the pure religion of God and the Father:

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is a word-salad, as far as I can tell.

Fair enough. Sinners that blame their flesh, or hold it in part responsible for their sinning, but never give their bodies any credit, nor responsibility for when they do something good.

When they sin, they say the flesh is sinful and to blamed, but when they do good, they do not say the flesh is good and to be thanked.

I have no idea who you mean in the quotation above. I've never suggested the body can't do good.

The body of natural flesh doesn't do good nor bad. No more than natural grass.

Isa 40:6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

From the beginning all flesh as grass of the earth, is made naturally mortal by Jesus Christ. No flesh made by Christ is with sin, nor is natural mortality sinful, nor by sin entering into the world.

Only the souls doing good or bad with the body, are judged good or bad, not the body.

The true God righteously judges all souls by our works with our bodies, whether good or bad.

It can; so long as the Holy Spirit is in control of it.

The body can only do what it can naturally, and how it is treated.

The body does not do anything good nor evil of itself. The bodey can be used for good or evil by the soul within. If the soul is rpeented of sinning and walking after the Spirit, then the born son of God only does good in the flesh.

1Jo 4:2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

The same as the Son walked on earth with His own body of flesh.

I have no idea what this means.

It's the soul-separation doctrine of some Christians justifying themselves by faith alone.

They say the body is the old man that does all the sinning, and the believer is no more the one committing the sins, and so are not condemned for the sins of the body.

They say this is because their souls are no forever secured in heavenly places with Christ, so that their bodies continue sinning as before, more or less, but their souls are out of harm's way from the second death judgment of works.

They preach a resurrection of the soul forever in heaven, that has yet to include the body remaining on earth:

Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They also preach a mystical spirit-only reign with Christ from above over all the earth. Not themselves on earth for a thousand years of course, but only in general time. (It's a sort of relativism applied to time, that takes away from Christ's prophecy of sure time, even as moral relativism takes away from sure commandment of God)

 

[RBDERRICK]

False. In Romans 7:14-22, Paul is describing his own inner struggle as a born-again person -

Romans 7 is revealing the inner wretchedness of the double hearted in the faith.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Paul cannot be speaking of himself at the time, because all Scripture is written only by holy men of God, not by doubleminded sinners. Paul may be speaking of his own past in the present tense, but not of himself while writing a Scriptural record of it by the Holy Spirit.

And Christ by His holy apostle is certainly not instructing lifetime doublemined sinning unto death.

Rom 7:24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Christ preaches double heartedness an evil to be delivered of, not to be comforted in.

He writes in the present tense all throughout the passage,

The writer begins with presently being delivered from the old man of sin, and speaks of the old life of sin in the past.

He then narrates his wretched past using the present tense, to emphathize with hearers that are presently doubleminded and wretched.

It's the common use of historical present in narrating past events. It's history narrated in present tense. The characters are old and dead, but they are made alive by present tense.

Whether Paul is speaking of being doublemened in the past, or of any such believer at present, it's the Spirit of Christ revealing it exactly as it is in Scripture: Wretched and in need of His deliverance.

describing a condition he was encountering as he wrote his letter to the Romans as an apostle. Here's an example:

Holy men of God writing by the Spirit of Christ, are not encountering episodes of lust and sin. It's only the spirit of the world that inspires men and women to lust and sin.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

If Paul were encountering episodes of his own will while writting, then all his recorded writings would not be Scripture of God. The Bible is not mixed with Scripture of God, and writings of men's own will.

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sola Scriptura includes believing all the words of the Bible are in deed and truth the very Scriptures of God Himself Alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is only one of several possible reasons for sin. See above.

The only possible reason for sin is lust in the heart. The only possible reason for continued sinning is unrepentance with a heart of lust.

The only possible way to be doing both good and evil, knowing we ought only do good, is by double heartedness.

Change in the born-again believer happens over time,

By another gospel of born again believers, not by the good news of Jesus Christ risen from the dead.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

All them in Christ Jesus are wholly new creatures of God, not old and new creature mixed up in both good and evil.

The difference is between whole hearted vs half hearted repentance.

This process of change means not all sin is totally eradicated in a single instant at the point of conversion, as you seem to think.

Rom 10:16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

1Jo 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

This verse in Matthew 5 doesn't describe temptation but an inward yielding to it that is the precursor to outward sin. Just read the verse and ask yourself, "Where does this verse mention temptation?" It doesn't.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

All Scripture together teaches any Scripture. Those who isolate Scripture, end up teaching their own things. Some ingornantly until correction, and some wilfully refusing correction.

This is, on its face, an obvious and useless statement. It's akin to saying, "All chemistry texts teach chemistry."

Which is obviously true. Which is why the whole book of chemistry must be taken together, in order to learn the chemistry teaching of the book.

Even more so with Scripture and doctrine of Christ:

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sola Scriptura includes all Scripture given for doctrine, be used for doctrine.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So, then, "All Scripture teaches Scripture" is merely obvious,

Not to all. Some demand all the doctrine of Christ be written in one verse or chapter of Scripture.

It's sometimes doen with prophecy of Christ. Such as demaning the millennial reign of Christ upon the earth only be taught from Rev 20.

Another form of error is demanding that doctrine and prophecy of Christ be explicity stated in Scripture. Such as the demand for one Scripture to declare that "Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God".

All Scripture can be taken together to teach what is not explicity said in any Scripture of truth.

God has written Scripture in this way, so that His people must study all Scripture taken together, in order to teach the one whole doctrine of Christ. It's called rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, it does. This isn't to say that under the New Covenant sin is approved of by God,

If we are justified of Christ while sinning, then that Christ aproves the sinning.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Which is not Jesus Christ, nor includes me.

only that sin doesn't have the same effect on the sinner under the New Covenant that it had under the Old Covenant.

Moral relativism includes sinning against Christ not having the same affect as before. It comes from relative repentance in general, that has the effect of only sinning less than before... generally speaking.

That also includes a relativism between people, so that sinning against Christ does not have the same effect on their souls. Such as on some souls sinning in the name of Christ, and on other souls sinning without naming His name at all.

It's called the hypocrisy of an unjust judge and Christ, that justifies friends and family transgressors, while condemning strangers doing the same things.

The hypocrisy of justification by one's faith alone is rightly known by all in the world, so that the grace of Christ is blasphemed thereby.

Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

The effect the soul by sin remains the same: The soul that sins dies to God, and the wages of sin is death to Christ. It is without respect of time, nor of people.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

For there is no respect of persons with God.


Sinning against God has the same common effect upon all souls of men, that was from the beginning when the first Adam transgressed, and made himself the first child of disobedience on earth.

Revelation 3:15 says "I will spit you out of my mouth," not "I have spat you out of my mouth." Such an act of God was contingent on how the Laodicean "angel" acted on the message given him from the Spirit through the apostle John. At the time of the giving of the message, the "being spit out of God's mouth" had not yet happened and was what the message was intended to prevent (vs. 18-19). Why are you ignoring/denying this plain fact?

Good point. The warning is to be utterly rid of the lukwarm doer of both good and evil. They are dead branches not yet cut off to be cast into the fire.

Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

They are sinning tares among the righteous wheat:

Mat 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

It's the same space of warning to false apostles, prophets, and teachers:

Rev 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Fornicators naming the name of Christ are not in Christ Jesus, nor members of His body, but are the doers of dead works mixed among the good.

They are warned to repent before Christ has them separated from the assembly of saints.

1Co 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Either the lukewarm tares cut out from a church, or the whole church is cast away from the righteous congregations of God.

But you haven't really debated; you've just contradicted and spoken past the points of those with views different from your own.

They are Scriptures applied to contradict the arguments, point by point. What's not being made is any response to perhaps show how they don't rightly apply.

The Scriptures given aren't even mentioned, much less the contradictions by them.

This is a false dichotomy. "Explicit" and "in general" are not mutually-exclusive things.

In general excludes something ever being all explicit. Lukewarm is some explicit and some not so explicit.

In gernal mean sort of on the whole.

One can be very explicit about general things. For example, if a doctor says, "Vitamin C is important for good health and everyone ought to take some every day," he has been both explicit - he's stated himself clearly, leaving no uncertainty about the benefit of vitamin C - and general "everyone ought to take some."

The argument is not about the hearers in general, but about the Lord's commandment being explicit, not in general.

The command is for all the tree to be made good or evil, and for all transgressions to be repented of.

How many hearers do the word in general is not the argument.

In the same way, Jesus is also sometimes both explicit and general in his remarks.

God at times speaks of things in general and explicitly. His commands are always explicitly, and never taken as only a general principle by the will of men.

Generally walking as Jesus, doing both good and evil, is not walking as Jesus walked. Jesus never did evil.

Generally walkiing as He walked, is judged as worse than not walking as Jesus at all.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[Fish153]

If we are justified of Christ while sinning, then that Christ aproves the sinning.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Which is not Jesus Christ, nor includes me.


Moral relativism includes sinning against Christ not having the same affect as before. It comes from relative repentance in general, that has the effect of only sinning less than before... generally speaking.

That also includes a relativism between people, so that sinning against Christ does not have the same effect on their souls. Such as on some souls sinning in the name of Christ, and on other souls sinning without naming His name at all.

It's called the hypocrisy of an unjust judge and Christ, that justifies friends and family transgressors, while condemning strangers doing the same things.

The hypocrisy of justification by one's faith alone is rightly known by all in the world, so that the grace of Christ is blasphemed thereby.

Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

The effect the soul by sin remains the same: The soul that sins dies to God, and the wages of sin is death to Christ. It is without respect of time, nor of people.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

For there is no respect of persons with God.


Sinning against God has the same common effect upon all souls of men, that was from the beginning when the first Adam transgressed, and made himself the first child of disobedience on earth.





Good point. The warning is to be utterly rid of the lukwarm doer of both good and evil. They are dead branches not yet cut off to be cast into the fire.

Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

They are sinning tares among the righteous wheat:

Mat 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

It's the same space of warning to false apostles, prophets, and teachers:

Rev 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Fornicators naming the name of Christ are not in Christ Jesus, nor members of His body, but are the doers of dead works mixed among the good.

They are warned to repent before Christ has them separated from the assembly of saints.

1Co 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Either the lukewarm tares cut out from a church, or the whole church is cast away from the righteous congregations of God.



They are Scriptures applied to contradict the arguments, point by point. What's not being made is any response to perhaps show how they don't rightly apply.

The Scriptures given aren't even mentioned, much less the contradictions by them.


In general excludes something ever being all explicit. Lukewarm is some explicit and some not so explicit.

In gernal mean sort of on the whole.



The argument is not about the hearers in general, but about the Lord's commandment being explicit, not in general.

The command is for all the tree to be made good or evil, and for all transgressions to be repented of.

How many hearers do the word in general is not the argument.



God at times speaks of things in general and explicitly. His commands are always explicitly, and never taken as only a general principle by the will of men.

Generally walking as Jesus, doing both good and evil, is not walking as Jesus walked. Jesus never did evil.

Generally walkiing as He walked, is judged as worse than not walking as Jesus at all.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
For in many things WE offend all". (James 3:1,2)

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief". (1 Timothy 1: 15)

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". (1 John 1:8)

I do not think any of these (3) great Christians (James, Paul or John) thought they had hit a place where they no longer sinned.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2: 1)

It was John's desire that those to whom he wrote did not sin. BUT---he apparently did not think any of them would hit a place where they never sinned again! "if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father.." Yes---John thought it possible he would sin---that is why he writes down 1 John 1:9 "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". But in verse 8 he says that if you say you "have no sin" ("I no longer sin") you are DECEIVED.

To actually believe you have come to a place where you never sin is the height of deception. It can only lead to one thing in the end: PRIDE. You will begin to believe you are better than others who have not repented of all sin as you have. You will begin to judge them, and warn them from your pedestal that they had better do as you have!! Be careful!

 

[Hopeful 2]

You will begin to judge them, and warn them from your pedestal that they had better do as you have!! Be careful!

Would you heed that warning ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

In any case, I've never asserted that Christ was commanding the "tree" to be good only in part.

If only in general, then only on the whole and in part, not all.

I simply pointed out that both in the case of actual trees and in the lives of Christians, there are hindrances to "fruit-bearing."

No one is arguing different lives of different Christians.

With natural trees bearing some bad fruit, they may still be sought for some good pieces to eat. But the Lord is speaking of souls of men and women, not natural bodies.

The Lord commands righteousness and holiness in all things, not only in part, that He may dwell with His people in the light, not in any darkness at all.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17}

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another,

Heb 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Jesus Christ has no part in souls doing any bad works.

The Lord did not generally die for our sins, and He does not command us to repent of our sins in general.

, the Christian who sins is a sinner,

True. Just as anyone sinning on earth, but is judged worse for naming the name of Christ. Christians are not uncondemned for sinning, but condemned more than the heathen.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

but this isn't all that he is. He is also a child of God, a new creature in Christ, a saint, priest and king unto God,

There is nothing new about doing good and evil. New leaf religion of doing less than before is not the wholly new pure religion of Jesus Christ.

The Lord that wholly died for our sins, does not command us to repent and do less of our sins.

the apostle John wrote that any believer who denied that they sin was self-deceived and devoid of the truth.

1 John begins with the present of truth of them walking in the light with Christ, without works of darkness.

The Scripture then turns to them naming Christ and walking in darkness, not the light. And saying they have no sin, while sinning.

The are the gray half hearted repenters with less dark works than before.

Saying we know the Lord, and not keeping His commandments continues the condemnation Christian sinning.

Half-hearted repenting only keeps His commandments in general, not all His commandments and/or not all the time.

Their lying doctrine also say they are no more condemned for their sinning. Doctrinally they therefore say they have no sin, because where no condemnation is, there is no sin.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Notice that John included himself in his statement,

True. John included himself as one to be condemned, if he ever decieves himself into believing if he sins, he has no sin, as though God would not condemn himself, a Christian and apostle, for sinning in darkness.

Paul makes the same warning to all Christians naming Christ:

Rom 11:19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

It's the same self-inclusive warning to all apostles, teachers, and preachers:

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
A faithful minister and saints should always include themselves in warnings of the Lord against turning from Him, as well as teaching false doctrines and decievable lies, such as ever being so foolish as to think by our own highminded faith alone, that we are not judged with the world by our sins and trespassses.

in both the present and the future, it was, and would be, impossible for a believer to claim they had no sin.

True. Decievers can say they are in the light, while walking in darkness. But it's a lie.

And so far as not some Christians not believing in doing righteousness at all times, nor is it possible to ensure we never fall, that is the self-confessed unbelief of a lukewarm heart, that repents only in general, but not in all things.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

Rom 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Tenchi]

The argument is against making Jesus' doctrine and command to be only generally speaking, which is only on the whole good or bad, all good or bad.

This remark here from you was given in response to my pointing out the following:

"In actuality, observing that "not every tree bears fruit" is not "moral relativism"..."

In your statement above, you completely ignore my point, refusing to acknowledge that you've misused the phrase "moral relativism" in speaking of your confusion about the phrase "in general." Why is that? It is not moral relativism to say that a statement is generally true. Many such statements exist that are not at all morally relativistic, which I've already explained to you. Maybe, then, choose your words more carefully, which is to say, think more carefully about what you're saying.

I teach spiritual babes of Scripture, not spiritual duplicity of continued lukewarm sinners, and the double hearted.

??? What does what you "teach" have to do with my point, which was that there are a variety of reasons why a genuine Christian may not bear good "fruit" spiritually? As I've shown you from God's word, there are lots of instances of true Christians who sin. This fact bears out my point about there being various hindrances to good "fruit bearing" in the lives of born-again believers. What you do or don't teach has no bearing on these things.

All in Christ Jesus are born wholly new and pure of God in heart and in life. Newborn sons grow by learning obdience through all trials and temptations, the same as the Son was perfected on earth.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

No sinning child of disobedience is a son of God in Christ Jesus.

Why are you continuing to repeat these errors? Doing so isn't going to persuade me to deny what Scripture says that directly contradicts your statements here. And mere repetition of your error won't somehow make it true. So, then, why are you just parroting, over and over, the same falsehoods when they've been shown to be falsehoods? Very strange...

Jesus was the God-Man, not merely human like you or I. As the writer of Hebrews pointed out, Christ was "made perfect" in his obedience to the Father as he perfectly fulfilled the Father's will. He was able to do this because he was the God-Man and not just a man. We don't have the advantage of deity that Christ has, of course. And so, our obedience to the Father is not perfect. This is precisely why we need the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us: Our own righteousness will never be perfect. How have you missed this in Scripture when it is so plainly spelled out?

And so, it is simply and very obviously false that "No sinning child of disobedience is a son of God in Christ Jesus." Every child of God sins at various times, as Scripture very clearly and repeatedly indicates. I've already pointed out many instances in earlier posts so I won't do so again here.

It's true that some doctrines teach continued sinning in life, without repentance of all sinning for Jesus' sake.

2Ti 2:16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

You made this comment after dividing up my entire remark into pieces. If this segmentation of statements is how you typically handle God's word, it is no wonder that you've got such a mistaken view of what it says.

My full statement was this:

"In actuality, observing that "not every tree bears fruit" is not "moral relativism" but the plain fact of the matter. And this is so for the very well-known reasons I noted. That you don't want to acknowledge the realities of spiritual immaturity, or the effects of false teaching, or the challenge of well-established habits of sinful thought and action, doesn't mean that they don't exist and sometimes badly affect the Christian's "fruit bearing." "

I didn't say that "some doctrines teach continued sinning in life, without repentance of all sinning for Jesus's sake." This is nowhere in the quotation above of my remarks. Why are you misrepresenting my words?

All well-established old lust and sins are cut away all at once by circumcision of Christ, for them that repent of all sinning now.

Deu 10:16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The Lord's hand and sword are quick and powerful and complete in one perfect cut of lust from the heart.

Those that preach only gradual repentance to sin less, have a dull circumcision with hands of sinful men.

Well, as Scripture itself indicates, all that you contend for here is in error. I've already shown you that this is so. Why, then, you respond with just bald contradiction is baffling to me. As I've already said, mere contradiction isn't an argument for your view or against mine; it's just contradiction. And, as I've shown from Scripture, your contradiction is plainly in error when put alongside God's word. Why, then, are you just throwing out more contradiction? Do you honestly think it is even slightly persuasive? It really isn't. Instead, it appears to me that, since you can't offer a defeater of what I've shown from Scripture, you'll just deny it by restating your error. As I said, this isn't making your statements at all persuasive, just deflective and weak. Why, then, are you continuing to post in this thread? It can't be that you hope to convince others that you're right. Instead, you seem only to want to deny that you're wrong. But just to be clear: Doing the latter doesn't achieve the former.

Romans 7:14-24, Galatians 5:17, Colossians 3;1-10, 1 John 1:8, Revelation 2-3 all plainly defy what you've asserted in the quotation above.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

So, the commandment of old to repent from all transgressions, is no longer in the new? Does the command of whole heartedness no longer apply as well?

What does Scripture say? It says the post-Calvary, born-again person interacts with God on a wholly-new basis than that of the OT Jew under the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 10:19-22
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 7:22-28
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

No one is connected to God, or remains connected to Him, on the basis of their obedience to God's commands, but they are, instead, brought into God's family and kingdom solely on the basis of their trusting in Christ as their Savior and Lord. He is the "new and living way" that dissolves the OT system of interaction between men and God by fulfilling it perfectly.

And so, the believer's obedience is merely the by-product of their salvation never the means of their salvation, as you seem to think. It is because this is so, that we read in Scripture that our deeds have nothing to do with our salvation:

Titus 3:5
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

The Christian person becomes wholehearted in their obedience to God as the result of their salvation, made so by the Holy Spirit over time; they don't obtain their salvation by being wholeheartedly obedient to Him. This is why we read in the NT of growth over time in the Christian's life, by which they go from spiritually infantile "milk drinkers" who are perennially "laying again the foundation from dead works" (which is a fancy way of saying "repenting of their sin over and over") to spiritually mature, adult, "meat eater" believers who are stable in their faith, free of the need to be constantly repenting of sin because they live in a consistently (though, never perfectly) holy way.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
3 for you are still of the flesh. For... there is jealousy and strife among you...

Ephesians 4:14-15
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

Hebrews 6:1
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Ephesians 4:13
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Hebrews 5:14
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

2 Peter 3:18
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

By what is spiritual "babyness" characterized? Well, as Scripture indicates, by ignorance, instability, carnality and sin. So, then, your idea that no true Christians sins is just obviously false.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What did Paul mean to say when he also called these Christian brothers "babes in Christ"?

In writing to believers, Christ always speaks to the brethren. He does not say, "Except for so and so...", unless it is by name.

And He calls them the brethren, not as brethren. In Heb 5, He is judging the children of disobedience, and are judged by their works to be only as babes in Christ, which is only by naming His name alone.

Justification by faith alone judges oneself in Christ Jesus, only by naming His name alone.

Rom 9:6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: