Lukewarm believers and faith

[gordontimmy]

The whole forum is not good at hearing the word of faith, this is the word of faith that the APOSTLES PREACH, not these people...


Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, WHICH WE PREACH;



Should we hear the FALSE APOSTLES..



2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Faith and works is nothing without charity...

Yeah, love conquers all.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I did NOT accuse, I disagreed Christ would prefer evil people over lukewarm people:

By His words of warning, He does when it comes to repentance for His sake.

Mark 2;17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

He does not come to call the lukewarm righteous to repentance, because they say they need not repent of all their sins and trespasses.

The accusation that the teaching about lukewarm works says Jesus wants people to be evil, is just to reject the teaching without showing any error in it...

Jesus commands the tree to be made all good, not just less bad. He actually prefers we be all evil than lukewarm, because He can't help half-baked people, that are only willing to repent of some works of the flesh, but not all.-RBDERRIC #3

Therefore, the "false interpretation" of Christ's words is yours. NOW I do accuse it of error. Obvious error.

Also, just saying 'na-ah' doesn't show any error.

Christ is impeccably righteous, the "Holy One" and therefore would NEVER prefer people be "all evil":

In order to repent of all evil, yes. Since He spits out any lukewarm repentance.

Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

As Christ would NEVER wish people were evil in any degree,

True. But to repent, the Lord only calls cold sinners to repentance, not the lukewarm self-righteous.

"cold" and "hot" are not figurative for "good and evil",

Whether in doctrine or prophecy of God, making His plain words only figurative or symbolic, is the game of the disobedient making myth out of the Bible to justify themselves.

1 Tim 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

And God having foreseen all such games with His words, He has His them written without doubt to any honest reader. Afterall, any sensible child can read the words and see it's the works that are being judged.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

What we also see is the truth that the person is judged by the works.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

they characterize the liquid that produces particular benefits:

Which is true of judged works elsewhere:

Jas 3:11
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Both liquid and fruit are used for God judging our works:

Matth 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

We see also in the same place, that Jesus teaches God judges the person by our works.

Christ prefers people have good works, either those that refresh, or heal the soul.

True. He commands it, because our works fellowship with God in light and life, or separate our souls from Him in death.

Isa 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek
{18:31} Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? {18:32} For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves,] and live ye.

Which is why God's commandment to all is to repent of all sins and trespasses for our soul's sake, that Jesus might forgive them all.

Heb 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Rev 3 is how Jesus rejects any kind of lame conditional surrender, where sinful man offers his own lukewarm religion of only sinning less than before.

That includes any better homes and garden religion of better sinners than others. Jesus only walks in the light and pure religion of His wholly repented saints.

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[RBDERRICK]

There is no such moral stance as "neither good nor evil".

Exactly. Man's moral relavance is not God's righteous judgment of works.

How then shall God judge works as good or evil, if they be neither good nor evil?

Lukewarm works are the good and bad works of lukewarm repenters.

Jerem
{3:8} And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also... {3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

It's the religion that old serpent still promises to transgressors:

Gen
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God commands us all to repent of all our evil deeds, not just the ones we no longer take pleasure in...All sinning is enmity with God, whether sinners enjoy it or not.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What you are saying is half believe,

Selective believing. Believing in needing to be saved by faith, but not by repentance.

which is to neither see Jesus Christ as risen nor dead, but to be in some kind of purgatory.

This is a fair description of the double hearted in Romans 7, who have not yet repented of all their sinning in order to enter into the blessedness of Romans 8.

Lets see again the true testimony of scripture, not you or anyone giving their own various scriptural ideas, but just as revealed.

The righteousness of God is revealed, ( the dying and rising again of Jesus Christ from the dead to believe and be saved. Romans 10:9-10.) and the just live by faith.

Repent, believe, and be saved...

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Also the wrath of God is revealed from heaven ( the judgement of the world because Christ came from heaven to earth) against all the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men lying against the truth. ( who are not the just, who do not live by faith/ the unbeliever.)

True. The lie of beleiving to be saved unto repentance.

The unbeliever is given over to a reprobate mind, they are not lukewarm, they are COLD, and not HOT,

Take the good advice of sticking to Scripture, and not our own ideas about it.

Jesus would that the lukewarm be cold, in order to wholly repent and be hot.

He would not that any be a reprobate, that cannot repent at all.

The context is about repenting God's way unto His salvation...

All the believers in salvation by their own faith alone, followed by their own lukewarm version of repentance, are not reprobates.

They simply need to believe Jesus' words from the heart, and forsake their false salvation unto partial repentance gospel.

They can then be like all the cold sinners, that Jesus comes to call unto repentance of all sins and trespasses.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Yeah, love conquers all.

Yes, agree! 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[follower]

Love is simple : obedience to Jesus.

 

[follower]

Which is why God's commandment to all is to repent of all sins and trespasses for our soul's sake, that Jesus might forgive them all.

Heb 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Rev 3 is how Jesus

rejects any kind of lame conditional surrender, where sinful man offers his own lukewarm religion of only sinning less than before.

That includes any better homes and garden religion of better sinners than others. Jesus only walks in the light and pure religion of His wholly repented saints.

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How then shall God judge works as good or evil, if they be neither good nor evil?

Inaction is action, indecision is decision. It's the sin of sloth - "to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

 

[follower]

Should we hear the FALSE APOSTLES..

a question
a statement
a reality every day.
Is it not written "Take care what you listen to" ?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I’m new here and hesitated to reply but I may as well rip the bandaid off right now. I came here to get other Christian perspectives and insights.

Grace certainly doesn’t excuse or permit sin, but it certainly does remove sins from the believer as far as the east is from the west.

None of these responses save one, Alfred, allows for grace. This is sad.

One of the responders even goes so far as to question salvation in others.

“And I completely despised the 'Christians' that preached against my sinning, while doing their own version of it. And then had the despicable gall to tell me they were forgiven, because they 'believed', but I was headed hell as an 'unbeliever'. I knew one thing, I sure didn't believe what they believed, and never want to.“

That’s a grievous sin. Doubting someone is “Christian” just because they disagree with you is pretty heavy, and a sin itself. Who are you to judge another man’s slave?

Only God has that authority. We, as believers, may judge the deeds of others, but never the salvation.

“Therefore, the lukewarm repenters are the self-righteous that the Lord cannot deliver from all their sinning.“

How do you know that? Is the arm of the Lord too short to save?

Then there’s this large chunk of asinine condescension:

“Very good question. It shows respect for Scripture, even if not understanding it perfectly.”

Said one believer to another… so much for supporting the weaker brother, if indeed, the weaker brother is the one with the misunderstanding of scripture.

And then, as if God needed anything from us, this gem of self-righteousness:

“HE chose us in this hour because HE knew we would take care of business.”

“We would take care of business”??? As if!

“we” are God’s workmanship. He does all He wills through us.

And then Alfred responded above. Great on you sir! Excellent understanding and implementation of scripture.

Nice post.

We had a thread up recently that staff decided to take down because it was very judgmental in a similar way, and I agree with your sentiments completely here. Certainly we need to scrutinize false teachings and pass judgments on the actions of others sometimes as well, but we must guard against becoming their judge and jury regarding salvation, or their ultimate spiritual state. Only the Lord knows everything in their minds and hearts, and the burden they alone are carrying, so only He is able to judge them accurately.

Blessings in Christ, and I enjoyed reading your post.
Hidden

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, agree! 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

And yet love is the hardest, for only love begets love, one who's never or scarcely loved cannot generate love from themselves. If one has a traumatized childhood and no experience of any selfless agape love in adulthood, I can't imagine how they would be able to love anybody else when they themselves have never known and felt love. They can have faith and hope, that's for sure, but love? How could you love your neighbor as yourself when you have nothing in yourself to love?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Inaction is action, indecision is decision. It's the sin of sloth - "to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

True. Which is why James 2 says faith that does not do good, is no good to God nor man.

The same with love not done:

1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

With God in heaven and man in need on earth, faith and love alone are just good vibes: worthless, self-serving, and only soothe the conscience.

{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[LovethroughDove]

And yet love is the hardest, for only love begets love, one who's never or scarcely loved cannot generate love from themselves. If one has a traumatized childhood and no experience of any selfless agape love in adulthood, I can't imagine how they would be able to love anybody else when they themselves have never known and felt love. They can have faith and hope, that's for sure, but love? How could you love your neighbor as yourself when you have nothing in yourself to love?

I think that is why we have been given the example of Christ and the cross. John 15:13

 

[Fish153]

Again how do we distinguish between a weak faith and a lukewarm faith?

Who me: I was leading a study in Romans and we were in Chapter 14 a couple of weeks ago. I believe a Christian can be "on fire for the Lord" yet still be weak. Perhaps they doubt their salvation, or believe they have committed an unpardonable sin. They may be "tormented" by these things, and because they are "weak in faith" the devil has an advantage in his temptations. Whereas a "lukewarm faith" would display no care at all for issues regarding the faith. They know not they are "miserable, blind and naked". They think they are fine. They think they are in a good place spiritually, when in reality they are backslidden and useless to the Lord. The "weak" Christian may have a HUGE desire to obey Christ, but because they are not yet mature in the faith, the devil has an advantage over them for a while. But the Lord uses that very "weakness" to bring them to maturity. So, I believe we can see the difference between a "weak" faith and a "lukewarm" faith.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Again how do we distinguish between a weak faith and a lukewarm faith?

It's in the first post.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

By works.

Works that are double minded doing both good and evil. It's the result of being saved by faith alone first, only followed by lukewarm repentance to sin less than before, but never to cease all dead works.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

It's all right there in the Bible as plain as day, for anyone that wants to know what God says. Which is the most important thing, seeing we shall all be judged by our works, whether they be good or bad.

The Lord Jesus counts good mixed with bad, as worse than all bad. He can convict the cold unto repentance and salvation, but not the lukewarm dribble of man's own religious tolerance for at least some sinning in this life.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

John {8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.​

The pure religion of Jesus Christ is only hot to sin not and do His good pleasure. Being hot and alive in Christ Jesus, is keeping ourselves from sinning with the world, by doing His will only.

The faith of lukewarm repenters only seeks to do more good than evil, and sin less. The sinless faith of Jesus Christ is is only for them that repent of all sins and trespasses, so as to only do good for His name's sake.

Seeing the title, I thought this might be your angle. How do you deal with the corrupt flesh, i.e., does it exist for for all Christians, lusting in adversarial opposition to that of Spirit (as stated in Ga 5:17)? If so, to avoid being lukewarm, must a Christian always walk in the Spirit? If not, where does a true Christian's faults come from?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Who me: I was leading a study in Romans and we were in Chapter 14 a couple of weeks ago. I believe a Christian can be "on fire for the Lord" yet still be weak. Perhaps they doubt their salvation, or believe they have committed an unpardonable sin. They may be "tormented" by these things, and because they are "weak in faith" the devil has an advantage in his temptations. Whereas a "lukewarm faith" would display no care at all for issues regarding the faith. They know not they are "miserable, blind and naked". They think they are fine. They think they are in a good place spiritually, when in reality they are backslidden and useless to the Lord. The "weak" Christian may have a HUGE desire to obey Christ, but because they are not yet mature in the faith, the devil has an advantage over them for a while. But the Lord uses that very "weakness" to bring them to maturity. So, I believe we can see the difference between a "weak" faith and a "lukewarm" faith.

Rom 14:1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

If you did read Rom 14, then how did you miss the simple teaching on being weak in the faith pertaining to liberty in the law of the Lord? Such as meats, drinks, sabbaths, holy days, etc...

Mat 6:30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 8:26And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

While there is the teaching of having little faith pertaining to the cares of this life, there is no NT Scripture for weakness in the faith of salvation and righteousness.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Faith toward God's salvation is by repentance from sins and trespasses, and so it's only the transgressors of His law, that lack faith toward His deliverance from transgransions. And, their faith is not weak, but dead.

Lukewarm faith is by lukewarm works of both good and evil, light and darkness, that are judged worse than the cold dead works of sinners that name not the name of Christ.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Nice post.

We had a thread up recently that staff decided to take down because it was very judgmental in a similar way, and I agree with your sentiments completely here. Certainly we need to scrutinize false teachings and pass judgments on the actions of others sometimes as well, but we must guard against becoming their judge and jury regarding salvation, or their ultimate spiritual state. Only the Lord knows everything in their minds and hearts, and the burden they alone are carrying, so only He is able to judge them accurately.

Blessings in Christ, and I enjoyed reading your post.
Hidden

God alone decided that He would save those who trusted the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died for their sins...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

And He is the only one qualified to make that determination because only to His eyes are all things "naked and open"...

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:12–13)​

 

[RBDERRICK]

Seeing the title, I thought this might be your angle.

It's God's angle by plain Scripture. Unless someone can show how it's not. But how is that possible, when it's just repeating what's written with normal grammar and comprehension?

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Jesus judges lukewarm faith by works. Can't get any clearer than that.

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

In fact, it's not just the faith, but the person that Jesus judges lukewarm and spits out of His body.

How do you deal with the corrupt flesh,

I deal with naturally mortal flesh the same as every creature on earth. Corruption of the flesh in Scripture is natural mortality as created by Christ.

I don't deal with corruption of the heart, which is lust and sins of the world with the flesh. I repent of it for Jesus' sake.

Trying to deal with continued sinning against Jesus Christ, is the hard work of the world.

Pro 13:15Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.

i.e., does it exist for for all Christians,

The lie of the natural flesh created by Christ being sinful, which God creates and gives on earth for the good, not the evil.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

That lie against Christ the Maker of all flesh, only exists in the vain imaginations of some Christians naming Christ, as a ready excuse for courrpt living. It's the childishness of trying to blame the body for what we do with the body, or at least hold the flesh partly responsible.

Responsible children know better than that. Only in the world of doctrinal corruption, do some try to make their bodies the source for their bad manners.

1Co 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

lusting in adversarial opposition to that of Spirit (as stated in Ga 5:17)?

Lusting with the world is the same for all corrupt sinners of the world, whether naming Christ or not.

It's the result of not repenting for Jesus' sake to recieve the promise of salvation from the lust and sins of the world:

2Pe 1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

If so, to avoid being lukewarm, must a Christian always walk in the Spirit?

My. Wouldn't that be horrible. No more lusting and sinning? God forbid.

Of course, with the hard of heart by sin, walking with Jesus is shunned in this life and the next.

Act 19:9But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Heb 3:13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Why would anyone want to walk with the Lord in white forever, if not here and now on earth.

Rev{3:4} Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

If not, where does a true Christian's faults come from?

There are true Christian saints:

Jde 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jde 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

And true Christian sinners:

Mar 4:19And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Jesus judges the difference by our works, whether good, evil, or worst of all lukewarm.