Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!


Does this mean the Christian Jew could throw off righteousness and be found a sinner, like the Gentiles? No, Paul says, the Jewish believer died to the of law but not to God Himself, and so, while they shouldn't rebuild the OT law-keeping standard as Christians, they shouldn't they become antinomians, either.

True. Christians shouldn't throw off the law of Christ to be justified by grace through faith alone.

The Scripture says Christ is not a servant nor minister of sin, which would be the case if He ministers grace to sinners, and serves the Father with a sinning body.

Christian sinners can serve and minister continued disobedience to their own churches, but not Jesus Christ to the churches of God.

Some Christians preach a kind of soul-separation in heaven from their own body on earth, in order to separate their continued works of the flesh from condemnation of God. Likewise, some will say the Lord in heaven is sinless with God, but His own body on earth is sinfully disobedient against Him.

They doctrinally separate themselves in heaven with the Lord from their own transgressions on earth.

So, the Christian person - Jew or Gentile - is freed from the condemnation of God's law,

Mat 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is salvation from transgressing the law condemned by the Lord. Not only from condemnation when disobeying Him.

not so that they can live a life of sin, but in order to live a life that fulfills, not the letter of the law (Romans 7:6), but its righteousness.

You mean in general correct? Certainly not completely all the time. Right? You're not preaching nonsinning Christianity for blameless Christians are you?

not so that they can live a life of sin, but in order to live a life that fulfills, not the letter of the law (Romans 7:6), but its righteousness.

How does anyone fulfill the righteoiusness of the law, without also keeping it's letters? In spirit only, but not in works?

None of the holy letters of the law of Christ are bad nor bad to keep. Christ's law is not bad law like that of unjust men.

It's not the letters of the righteous law that kill, but if those righteous letters are only kept outwardly without the Spirit within, then the soul is still dead to God, even as any man found transgressing His law outwardly.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

While men can keep any letter of the law, without the Spirit of Christ. No man can be transgressing any letter of the law by the Spirit of Christ. No one trasngressing the law of Christ has the Spirit of Christ, nor is walking in disobedience with Him.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Christ is not in, nor with anyone disobeying God the Father. He does not minister sin to His own body on earth, nor is any child of disobedience found in Him.

Mat 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of the Pharisee is outward works of law alone. Exceeding their righteousness is not by outward works of transgression, but abounding in good thoughts. Ther ighteousness of Jesus Christ and His saints exceeds that of the Pharisees and trasngressors, by fulfilling the righteousness of the law from a pure heart within first, as well as keeping it's letters.

The law is spiritual in that it commands obedience of the heart first, not in that the Spirit overlooks disobedient deeds to find goodness within.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Paul explains here that the grace of God is actually nullified by thinking that justification happens through law-keeping.

True. Grace is rejected for outward works of law alone, without having the Spirit of the law. Grace is likewise rejected for continued transgression of the law, without repentance by the Spirit of grace.

Heb 10:28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The Spirit of grace is only for help to repent, and in time of trial and temptation to continue obeying the Lord.

Instead, the Christian person, like Paul, ought to see themselves as described in verse 20, by the life and power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), living a holy life.

We ought to walk as He walked, not just to see ourselves as walking with Him in sins and trespasses.

Jesus Christ is not a sinful christ walking hand in hand with any child of disobedience to the Father.

It is his life and work in the believer that makes them righteous,

A sinful christ's life and work in disobedient believers does not make them righteous, but only more sinful.

not their careful obedience to God's commands

Only the children of disobedience believe and preach not being faithfully obedient to God the Father.

which can never be good enough to satisfy God.

Rom 10:16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

It's accepted that any man disobeying the Son, can never please the Father. Their own faith alone declares it impossible. Sinful man's faith is their's alone, and unbelief toward the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

{4:5} For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

And so, when they preach their own faith and unbelief toward God, they preach themselves alone, not Jesus Christ and His righteous salvation from disobeying God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The only reason that is true is because only those who are already justified in Christ can do good works and those who aren't, can't.

This is true and a good point, that ought be preached more often to all hearers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Only by the faith and Spirit of Christ in the heart, can anyone on earth please the Father in deed and in truth.

All men that sin on earth, do so by the lust of the world in the heart. Therefore, all men must first have their old lust circumcised from the heart by the Spirit of Christ.

2 Pe 1:3 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Until the old man's lust is taken away by Christ, no one can possibly do anything pleasing to God from the heart.

1Co 13:3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

1 Peter{1:22} Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

In other words, their works are evidence of whether or not they are justified;

True again. We are all judged by our works, whether unto life or death.

So long as dead works continue unrepented, then so does evil lust untaken away by Jesus Christ. The same as any man with lust remaining, no works are pleasing to God.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If any man is disobeying the Lord, then it is by lust of the world still in the heart. The righteous Advocate Jesus Christ is ready to circumcise the heart of any man, that repents from their own works of lust.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the

the works themselves do not justify anyone.

True again. Works themselves alone without righteous faith toward God, do not justify any sinner's own works, whether they be works of charity or the law.

Rom 9:31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Isa 64:6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Lev 26:31And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.

So long as our works include works of iniquity, then the heart is still defiled with lust of the world, and our righteous deeds are not pleasing nor justified by the Lord from heaven.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Only the pure and good works by faith in Jesus Christ please God, and are justified of the Father. Whether they be by sacrifice or charity from a pure heart.

Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Exo 29:18And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Phl 4:18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Believers' works are judged, but it will not determine whether or not they get into heaven, it only determines the level of reward:

The judgement seat of Christ is promised judgment of works warned for His people. He first separates the bad tares from His righteous wheat. Then He rewards the righteous for good ministering of obedience with cities to rule with Him on earth.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

The judgment seat of Christ is to first be accepted of the Lord or rejected by Him. The terror of the Lord is for wrath and condemnation of any evil doers, not for rewards of ministry.

1 Peter{1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

The admonition from the Lord to minister well and build up His people on holy foundations, is with exhortation, not by terror.

The warning to all men to repent of disobeying Him, is with terror to them that do not, to the Jew and Christian first.

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord

Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

The righteous Lord and Judge does not commend the disobedience with favor, and then turn around and condemn starnagers for disobeying Him.

This hypocrisy of religious believers justifying themselves by their religion, while condemning others doing the same, began with the self-justifying Jews by law alone, and continues with self-justifying Christians by faith alone.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?...For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I want to be clear. A good Christian needs to obey the Lord,

All men need to obey the Lord. Only His accepted saints do.

and not just accept Christ as Savior.

No man accepts Jesus as Christ and Lord, He accepts us as obedient servants.

Jhn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

And He only accepts them that repent of evil doing.

Mar 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

A bad Christian can get into Heaven too, which does take place by Grace.

There is no bad Christ in heaven, nor is his grace that of Jesus Christ.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

Other than that we are agreed on the importance it is for Christians to follow up their commitment to Christ by obeying him.

Necessity for our soul's sake is not just important, but all important and necessary.

Tit 3:14And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Job 23:12Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Luk 9:22Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Act 17:3Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

It was neceesary for the Son to die for our sins, it is equally necessary for men to repent and live for His righteousness.

Heb 13:12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Only bad christs sanctify badly with a little suffering. Jesus Christ santifies wholly and complete with suffering unto death of the cross.

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

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All men that sin on earth, do so by the lust of the world in the heart. Therefore, all men must first have their old lust circumcised from the heart by the Spirit of Christ.

As long as we understand that true believers still struggle with sin as learn to grow in holiness.

True again. We are all judged by our works, whether unto life or death.

No one is judged by works unto life. Believers are already saved and their works determine the level of reward. Those who aren’t saved are those who rejected God’s grace in Christ. Their works are the evidence of their lack of faith.

So long as dead works continue unrepented, then so does evil lust untaken away by Jesus Christ. The same as any man with lust remaining, no works are pleasing to God.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

This verse is speaking to believers.

If any man is disobeying the Lord, then it is by lust of the world still in the heart. The righteous Advocate Jesus Christ is ready to circumcise the heart of any man, that repents from their own works of lust.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the

Believers’ hearts are circumcised, but we still struggle with sin. When they confess their sins, God will forgive and cleanse them (1 John 1:9).

True again. Works themselves alone without righteous faith toward God, do not justify any sinner's own works, whether they be works of charity or the law.

More clarity is needed here. I am not speaking of justifying a “sinner’s own works,” whatever that means. That doesn’t fit a biblical meaning of justification that I can see. We are justified (declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No works ever justify anyone, not even good works. Good works are only evidence that one has already been declared righteous.

So long as our works include works of iniquity, then the heart is still defiled with lust of the world, and our righteous deeds are not pleasing nor justified by the Lord from heaven.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Only the pure and good works by faith in Jesus Christ please God, and are justified of the Father. Whether they be by sacrifice or charity from a pure heart.

Where are works said to be justified by the Father? What meaning of “justified” are you using?

 

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The righteous Lord and Judge does not commend the disobedience with favor, and then turn around and condemn starnagers for disobeying Him.

This hypocrisy of religious believers justifying themselves by their religion, while condemning others doing the same, began with the self-justifying Jews by law alone, and continues with self-justifying Christians by faith alone.

Justification—being declared righteous—is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That is at the heart of the gospel and is a clear message of the NT. Any works added to that, whether of the law or good works, is a false gospel.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The Bible clearly teaches that justification is by faith alone.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To add works, even good works, is a false gospel.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Doing good works are evidence of having been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Some who preach their own faith alone, also say it is not enough to have faith in Christ alone, but must also believe in Christ's finished work on the cross. Which is according to their own personal teaching of what that work is.

That's how people proselytize other believers to their own doctrine of faith, rather than preach the common faith and gospel of Jesus Christ.

Believers do good works because they love the Father and the Son and want to be obedient.

Sons of God do good in obeying the Father and Son.

God's family does not have any wannabe's.

There is not one good work one can do to be justified....Of course, but that is without works.

Repentance from our own dead works is good, but is not a work. It is a ceasing of past works, and so righteousness is imputed without works.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

There is not one good work one can do to be justified.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

John is talking about those whose lives are characterized by continual, unrepentant sin, not believers who still struggle against the flesh and sin.

Sinning is characterized by sin. Anyone committing sin with the devil is committed to sinning against Christ.

not believers who still struggle against the flesh and sin.

I prefer Bible words used for the good fight against disobedience to the Lord.

Struggling with sin is a bit iffy, as if sometimes overcoming and sometimes falling. Or even struggling with the common effects of sin on all flesh, such as the morning after.

You are teaching a false gospel.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
No one is saved and justified until the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Rom 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

All sinners are imputed guilty of His innocent blood shed on the cross by hands of sinners.

Rom 3:19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

In every discussion on this topic, you misrepresent what others believe. That really should stop. You should at least try to understand what others are saying.

RBDERRICK said:
They say things like trusting in His work on the cross alone. Or, only trusting in His finished work of the cross, without anything done on our part to be saved.

If you agree with this, then it is accurate. If not, then it does not apply to you.

We are absolutely saved by Christ's death and resurrection alone.

Agreed. So, you don't agree that anyone is saved by faith in His finished work on the cross alone.

Although, let's not forget our need to repent of disobeying God unto His mercy and salvation from disobedience to God.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

It's true that repenting from dead works is not a work, nor therefore is any part of being saved and justified by Christ without works. However, repentance is of course first commanded and necessary to partake of His mercy and forgiveness for all our old sinning.

Acts 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

It is in Christ, on the basis of his work, that we put our faith.

True.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
If we believe with the heart, that God has raised Jesus Christ from the dead to justify and not condemn them that repent, then He will give us His Spirit and faith to obey and please the Father always as He.

All of which is a gift from God. Salvation--justification, sanctification, and glorification--is a work of God from start to finish.

True. All whole and complete at once, except glorification, which is the reward of inheritance for faithfully enduring trials and temptations with obedience unto the end.

Transgressors still crucifying the Son to themselves, have no gift nor blessing from the Father, but only judgment with terror and wrath.

Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

2 Cor 5:9 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

To add one ounce of work, is to teach a false gospel.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, this is a false gospel. Paul's warning in Gal 1:8-9 should not be taken so lightly.

After a time, so many accusations of false gospel here, false gospel there, certainly loses any impact upon the soul.

Perhaps if you would use your false gospel blurb more judiciously, maybe one or twice in a blue moon, rather than 3 or 4 times in one post, then it might carry some hefty weight to it.

Even better, you could maybe show how it is a false gospel to the Bible, and not just heresy to your own teachings, that might convince the gainsayers against Scripture.

That especially includes the false gospel tagged against quoted Scripture...

 

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James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I've dealt with this at length before and shown that your understanding of this verse is not correct. You simply do not understand the meaning of "justified" in that verse. Paul and James agree, but they use different meanings of "justification."

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
…
Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)

First, Paul says that “if Abraham was justified by works,” which obviously implies that he wasn’t justified by works, he has nothing to “boast about . . . before God.” Why? Because “to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.” Second, Paul quotes Gen 15:6 which states, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” That is, Abraham’s righteousness was counted to him on the basis of faith, not on a work or works. Third, Paul states that it is the one who believes, “who does not work,” that “his faith is counted as righteousness.” Which goes right back to Abraham, showing that he didn’t do any work; it was by faith alone.

Fourth, notice the use of “justifies” (v.5) and “justification” (v. 25)—in relation to Jesus being “delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification”—which clearly indicate Paul is talking about being declared righteous. He ties that in with the reason as to why “it was counted to him” was written for our sake (v. 24). Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was. Notice also that Christ’s work on the cross and his resurrection are the basis for our justification; it is his righteousness imputed to us. He did the work, so it is not by any works we do. And that goes back to verses 2-5.

Throughout this passage, Paul’s point is that Abraham was not justified (declared righteous) by any works, but by believing in God, which is how we are also justified. If there is even one work, then it is not a gift, but what is owed us.

Not only is that the point Paul makes in Rom 4, that is the point he makes in Eph 2, where he also mentions the purpose of good works:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Paul says that by grace we are saved (justified) through faith, none of which is our own doing. It can’t be more clear. Even then, we were saved “when were dead in our trespasses.” Notice in verse 8 that Paul again brings in the idea of “a gift.” Why is it a gift? Because it is not our own doing. We’ve already seen in Romans 4 that if it was our own doing, it would be what was owed to us. But, it’s a gift and a gift is free to the one who receives it.

The only time Paul speaks of doing works is in verse 10, where he clearly states that doing good works are the reason we have been saved. That supports what James says, that good works are evidence that a person has been saved.

You have Paul and James in total contradiction because you haven't done your due diligence in studying the different meanings of justification. Paul is talking about being declared righteous, having our sins pardoned, but James is talking about vindication and proof of the faith that Abraham already had by which he was made righteous.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In context, which you need to keep in mind when responding, adding works to justification, thinking that works are necessary to be declared righteous, is a false gospel.

Some who preach their own faith alone, also say it is not enough to have faith in Christ alone, but must also believe in Christ's finished work on the cross. Which is according to their own personal teaching of what that work is.

That's how people proselytize other believers to their own doctrine of faith, rather than preach the common faith and gospel of Jesus Christ.

I had stated that you do not teach the gospel, and technically you don't, but it's because you simply do not understand the meaning of "justification." You really need to accept correction on this and understand what the Bible says about believers being justified, lest you actually do believe a false gospel. Correct terminology and understanding of that terminology is of the utmost importance. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[Free]

Sons of God do good in obeying the Father and Son.

They do, although imperfectly. And, they desire to be obedient and to please God.

God's family does not have any wannabe's.

Of course not.

Repentance from our own dead works is good, but is not a work.

Of course.

It is a ceasing of past works, and so righteousness is imputed without works.

And this is exactly what is meant by justification (being declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from any works. It seems that your whole beef with what Christianity teaches is based on a faulty meaning of "justification."

Just what do you think it means to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us? Wouldn't it obviously be that we are then declared righteous? If not, then what does it even accomplish?

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Again, there is not one good work one can do to be justified.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

Yet, again, we see that good works do not justify anyone but are evidence of one who is already justified.

Sinning is characterized by sin. Anyone committing sin with the devil is committed to sinning against Christ.

No. Again, John is talking about those whose lives are characterized by continual, unrepentant sin, not believers who still struggle against the flesh and sin.

I prefer Bible words used for the good fight against disobedience to the Lord.

Struggling with sin is a bit iffy, as if sometimes overcoming and sometimes falling. Or even struggling with the common effects of sin on all flesh, such as the morning after.

Yet, you don't understand some "Bible words," such as justification.

No one is saved and justified until the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

False.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (ESV)

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
...
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV)

Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

And on it goes. Very clearly, Paul taught that at the moment one is saved, the moment Christ's righteousness is imputed, they are declared righteous (justified). No one is ever declared righteous (justified) by good works. Ever.

 

[RandyK]

All men need to obey the Lord. Only His accepted saints do.

Actually, people in the world can obey God without being conscious of it. They are just following their conscience.

But yes, only Christians please God in their obedience, by giving their all to Him, and not just a few "good works."

God is "Lord," and not just our "Butler!" We must give our all to Him!

No man accepts Jesus as Christ and Lord, He accepts us as obedient servants.

I'm afraid that runs counter to what we're told in Scriptures. We do choose to accept Jesus as Lord.

Rom 10.9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Jhn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus was speaking of choosing those he wanted to be his apostles. They certainly chose to accept his calling.

I've lost the context for our conversation?

 

[Fish153]

OK. I have stopped following him because he won't admit to being a non-sinner.

That is a surprise to me.

He doesn't seem to realize that the term "Christian sinner" is an oxymoron.

What does this teach you...
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

BTW, the "any man" of 1 John 2:1 are they who have yet to turn from sin.
The "we", are they who have !

No, not true. Read it again:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2: 1,2)

John is clearly saying that by writing these things he is instructing them not to sin. But, if any man sin (as we all do from time to time either knowingly or unknowingly). Note: He says "WE" have an advocate with the Father. If, as you say, John has turned from sin to sin no more----why does he say WE have an advocate? He then says "he is the propitiation for OUR sins". The grammar is not just PAST SINS---it is a present tense verb--for OUR sins.

James says "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body". (James 3:2) James is clearly stating that WE ALL OFFEND----we all SIN. He is then saying that if you are able to bridle your tongue you will keep yourself from many offenses. But clearly, James, a very godly man, says "in many things WE offend all". Take heed to that--no one reaches a place where they can say "I no longer sin".

 

[RBDERRICK]

As long as we understand that true believers still struggle with sin as learn to grow in holiness.

Struggling to overcome temptation and sin, is called the good fight of faith in Jesus Christ.

Struggling with failure of sinning by temptation, is called the death of disobedience to God, and in need of repentance.

No one is judged by works unto life.

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Godly repentance from dead works is unto life.

1Jo 3:14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
By good works we pass from death unto life.

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev{20:12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

By good works we are judged in the resurrection unto life in the book of life, or by evil works unto second death in the lake of fire.

Believers are already saved

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

There is no already saved without already repented from dead works.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

There is no already saved without already washed, sanctified, and justified.

and their works determine the level of reward.

Ministerial works of the good wheat are rewarded with cities in Christ's millennial reign on earth.

Bad works of the tares are rewarded with hypocrites.

Matth 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those who aren’t saved are those who rejected God’s grace in Christ.

The hard of heart reject the mercy of the Lord, by not repenting from their dead works. The despise the Spirit of grace drawing unto repentance and life.

Their works are the evidence of their lack of faith.

Their faith to disobey God, is not the obedient faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of the unrighteous is their own alone and dead toward God.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[RBDERRICK]

This verse is speaking to believers.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sins, is for any man sinning, which includes believers disobeying God.

The Spirit first writes to the believers Jesus' command, that we sin not.

The Spirit also writes to the believers Jesus' warning, that if we sin, we are the same as any man disobeying God. Any man sinning, whether naming Christ or not, is in need of the same Advocate to the whole world, and reconciliation with God and the Father.

When they confess their sins, God will forgive and cleanse them (1 John 1:9).

True. If we sin, and we confess our sin, Jesus Christ will forgive our sin and wash us clean.

God's forgiveness is for any confessed sinning. There is no forgiveness for present sinning unconfessed unto the Lord.

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Forgiveness and cleansing by Jesus Christ the righteous, is only for past sinning, not for any present sinning, and certainly not for any future sinning in a day that may not come.

 

[RBDERRICK]

More clarity is needed here.

RBDERRICK said:
Works themselves alone without righteous faith toward God, do not justify any sinner's own works, whether they be works of charity or the law.

Works alone without the Spirit of Christ from a pure heart, are dead works and unjustified with God, including those works of man meant for charity or by law.

I am not speaking of justifying a “sinner’s own works,” whatever that means.

Sinners have lust of the world untaken away from the heart by Jesus Christ. All their works are their own and of themselves alone, and not with nor of God. Whether to do good or by law, they are still works of the flesh without the Spirit and love of Christ.

1Co 13:3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Repentance from dead works is from doing any works of our own alone, without the Spirit of Christ in a good heart circumcised from the foreskin of lust.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

No works ever justify anyone, not even good works.

I preach only the good works done through the faith of Jesus Christ are justified by God the Father.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You're not speaking of justifying anyone's works at all, but only justifying anyone's faith alone, whether doing good or bad.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That doesn’t fit a biblical meaning of justification that I can see. We are justified (declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

We are imputed righteousness of God, when we repent of all our own dead works without Christ.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Repentance is not a work we do, but is ceasing from works we did. Therefore, we are declared righteous without works repented of.

Titus {3:5} Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Good works are only evidence that one has already been declared righteous.

And bad works are evidence that one has already been declared unrighteous.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Where are works said to be justified by the Father?

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham our father was justified by God, not by man. God called Abraham Friend, when he did the work commanded and justified by God.

{2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The Scripture of God imputing righteousness to Abraham by faith, was fulfilled when the Scripture declared him Friend by the work justified with God.

{2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Imputed righteousness of God is fulfilled, when doing the work justified by God.

We are imputed rightoeusness without works repented of. We are justified by works that need no repentance.

What meaning of “justified” are you using?

Justified by God, which is according to Scripture:

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The justification of God is by the faith of Jesus Christ, not by any works of charity, law, and transgression, that is without the faith of Jesus.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The justification by God is by the works of faith in Jesus Christ.

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Which includes our words judged as works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That is at the heart of the gospel and is a clear message of the NT. Any works added to that, whether of the law or good works, is a false gospel.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[RandyK]

No, not true. Read it again:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2: 1,2)

John is clearly saying that by writing these things he is instructing them not to sin. But, if any man sin (as we all do from time to time either knowingly or unknowingly). Note: He says "WE" have an advocate with the Father. If, as you say, John has turned from sin to sin no more----why does he say WE have an advocate? He then says "he is the propitiation for OUR sins". The grammar is not just PAST SINS---it is a present tense verb--for OUR sins.

James says "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body". (James 3:2) James is clearly stating that WE ALL OFFEND----we all SIN. He is then saying that if you are able to bridle your tongue you will keep yourself from many offenses. But clearly, James, a very godly man, says "in many things WE offend all". Take heed to that--no one reaches a place where they can say "I no longer sin".

True, I get this stuff all the time, suggesting that Christians have stopped sinning. While it's true that upon becoming "Born Again" we cease from living a *lifestyle of sin,* it is equally true that we remain sinners, tempted and at times capitulating, hopefully to the lesser sins of attitude and pride troubles.

So I think some of this is a semantics problem. When we say we "don't sin," what do we mean by that--that we become sinless like Christ? Of course not! Rather, it means we stop living a life like pagans, making decisions strictly for our own benefit, and without consulting God.

The Born Again life is a life of commitment to the Lordship of God, and we follow Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit. But clearly, we are *not* sinless.

"We don't sin" means "we don't *practice* sinning like pagans do. It doesn't mean "we don't sin at all."
"I don't sin" means "I don't live a life of sin anymore," as opposed to "I never sin anymore."