Man is Evil

[Alabaster]

*disclaimer - I'm not made at anyone, nor their theology.

I cannot conclude that the words written in canon ARE what it claims, . . .being "the words of a god".

Long ago, when I was having issues with my religion, I was told by my pastors to "read the bible" to find what god wanted to say to me. I did, . . . and that began my eventual deconversion. So, perhaps I DID hear from god and either completely misunderstood what was being said, or he is exactly as described IN the stories, . . . and I cannot abide with such actions.

Never the less, text written thousands of years ago. . . do not equate to a conversation in the here and now. No more than me reading quote from Abraham Lincoln means that we are buds.

You have allowed the enemy to come in and steal the truth from you. Reading the bible doesn't lead to the deconversion of anyone! It is merely a decision you have made to reject Him.

When you say you 'cannot abide such actions', you have in effect put yourself on the throne. You sit in judgment of Almighty God--the One who made you! Do you realize how inane that is? God isn't going to compete with you for His rightful place. You have to come to Him with a humble and contrite heart and He will come and live with you.

I know God and I have conversations with Him every day. You can as well. Conversations involve listening and periods of not talking, FYI.

 

[Deavonreye]

You have allowed the enemy to come in and steal the truth from you. Reading the bible doesn't lead to the deconversion of anyone! It is merely a decision you have made to reject Him.

When you say you 'cannot abide such actions', you have in effect put yourself on the throne. You sit in judgment of Almighty God--the One who made you! Do you realize how inane that is? God isn't going to compete with you for His rightful place. You have to come to Him with a humble and contrite heart and He will come and live with you.

I know God and I have conversations with Him every day. You can as well. Conversations involve listening and periods of not talking, FYI.

See, I have to disagree with you. Claiming the bible IS god's word. . . doesn't make it so. It reads as a work from man, including actions that are found right here amongst people. A little differently, of course, because it was written when people were primative and far more war like, bound by a lack of general understandings of the world they lived in. When I say that, it has nothing to do with putting myself on any throne, but is my honest and moral reaction to the ideologies OF those ancient people.

For instance, a culture surrounded by a lot of death, may be less offended by leadership calling for the death of those who did mild offenses. A culture who had no idea that slavery was immoral would have no reservations about stating how conquered slaves were to be treated.

 

[Alabaster]

See, I have to disagree with you. Claiming the bible IS god's word. . . doesn't make it so.

There's your first step into the quagmire of deception.

 

[Alabaster]

It lead to mine too

No it did not. The Bible contains all truth and if you have read any of it, you have been given truth. It takes a decision to reject it. Man up.

 

[jasoncran]

its pointless to tell someone what they feel. we dont know save divine revalation, and i would hope that if they lord tells you what these unbelievers think or feel that you would use wisdom first by praying then if the lord wills speak to that person

that is known as prophecy and when used wrong it pushes away the lost not get them saved.

 

[Alabaster]

Unbelievers who have sought truth by reading the word of God will find the truth. It's a fact. If they reject it, that is on them, and their own decision. If in fact they were really believers and think they can blame scripture on their apostasy---they are barking up the wrong tree, passing the buck, when it is their own refusal of truth that has caused it.

We aren't telling you how to feel. We are telling you that you are dead wrong to blame God-inspired truth for your embracing lies.

 

[Deavonreye]

??? There are many things that are absolutely false within the bindings of a bible.

I just love how there are so many differing religions that KNOW that they are right, . . . and just as many more that KNOW that these others are ABSOLUTELY wrong, and they are ABSOLUTELY right . . . but to others, they are not, etc. . .

No one can prove their way to be right. I don't know if people are able to grasp this, but . . . even a religion that has "a great act of love" at its core, that doesn't automatically make it right.

 

[stovebolts]

... even a religion that has "a great act of love" at its core, that doesn't automatically make it right.

No, it just shows you how evil humanity can be...

 

[Alabaster]

??? There are many things that are absolutely false within the bindings of a bible.

I just love how there are so many differing religions that KNOW that they are right, . . . and just as many more that KNOW that these others are ABSOLUTELY wrong, and they are ABSOLUTELY right . . . but to others, they are not, etc. . .

No one can prove their way to be right. I don't know if people are able to grasp this, but . . . even a religion that has "a great act of love" at its core, that doesn't automatically make it right.

There is no untruth in scripture. You are welcome to try an prove that there is. It has never been done, nor will it.

Christianity is not a mere religion. It is a relationship with a living God, through the man Jesus Christ, who lived and died and rose again, and lives!

 

[Deavonreye]

There is no untruth in scripture. You are welcome to try an prove that there is. It has never been done, nor will it.

Christianity is not a mere religion. It is a relationship with a living God, through the man Jesus Christ, who lived and died and rose again, and lives!

I can show error. . . . but it will be "answered" as it being "poetic language" or the like, so what's the point of showing the error?

I know that many people can feel like they have a relationship based upon what they may read in a book, what might "come to their mind" in prayer, or based upon a strong feelings, . . . but not everyone can see that AS "a relationship". Reading responses in a book doesn't constitute "a relationship" for me.

 

[Alabaster]

I can show error. . . . but it will be "answered" as it being "poetic language" or the like, so what's the point of showing the error?

I know that many people can feel like they have a relationship based upon what they may read in a book, what might "come to their mind" in prayer, or based upon a strong feelings, . . . but not everyone can see that AS "a relationship". Reading responses in a book doesn't constitute "a relationship" for me.

So... you cannot produce any error.

Yes, all Christians have a personal relationship with the living Jesus who reveals Himself through His word, and outside of it as well. People who cannot read have met Him!

We don't live by feelings. We live by the truth found in the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

 

[Deavonreye]

So... you cannot produce any error.

Yes, all Christians have a personal relationship with the living Jesus who reveals Himself through His word, and outside of it as well. People who cannot read have met Him!

We don't live by feelings. We live by the truth found in the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

As I said, I can produce error, but it is always rationalized away.

And again, as I stated before, some people cannot see "reading a book" as "a relationship", and definitely not something "personal". When I think back to my sincere days when I was a christian, I remember all the times when I would pray at the alter, at youth camp, at a prayer meeting, at home, etc. . . and never felt anything beyond myself [and yes, praying sincerely. . . even desperately].

 

[Alabaster]

As I said, I can produce error, but it is always rationalized away.

And again, as I stated before, some people cannot see "reading a book" as "a relationship", and definitely not something "personal". When I think back to my sincere days when I was a christian, I remember all the times when I would pray at the alter, at youth camp, at a prayer meeting, at home, etc. . . and never felt anything beyond myself [and yes, praying sincerely. . . even desperately].

Those who know the truth do not rationalize away a concern one may have about scripture. We explain the concern of the one who bears it. God wants you to know Him and to understand His word.

You seem to be stuck on a 'book'. The Scriptures are living and supernatural. The Bible is not a mere book.

In your past, you may have been doing to receive from God rather than believing. Feelings are not where it's at. We receive by faith, believing. You were in desperate need of discipleship, and I believe you have been failed.

It's not too late for you to meet Jesus!

 

[Drew]

As I said, I can produce error, but it is always rationalized away.

Well why don't you try us? Give an example of an "error" and see if there is no reasonable response forthcoming?

I trust you are aware that there is a broad spectrum of voices coming out of "the church". I am happy to wear the name "Christian" but would take great umbrage with many of the things set forth by others who would claim the same status. If I may say, you seem to want to focus on the arguably "unreasonable" voices, to the exclusion of others.

Thus, when, as a Christian, I challenged the validity of the doctrine of pre-destination, you were not particularly interested. Well, that is your right, of course. But please be fair - do not tar all of us with the same brush.

 

[Deavonreye]

You seem to be stuck on a 'book'. The Scriptures are living and supernatural. The Bible is not a mere book.

In your past, you may have been doing to receive from God rather than believing. Feelings are not where it's at. We receive by faith, believing. You were in desperate need of discipleship, and I believe you have been failed.

It's not too late for you to meet Jesus!

Once again, it is the usual "you were never actually saved", "you didn't believe correctly", "you didn't pray the right way" type of thing. This has to do with a person's ability TO believe. A person can't just believe because someone else tells him to. And if, after 30 some years of trying, one gives up on it, somehow I came up short the whole time. Funny that god didn't help me out then.

 

[Deavonreye]

Well why don't you try us? Give an example of an "error" and see if there is no reasonable response forthcoming?

I trust you are aware that there is a broad spectrum of voices coming out of "the church". I am happy to wear the name "Christian" but would take great umbrage with many of the things set forth by others who would claim the same status. If I may say, you seem to want to focus on the arguably "unreasonable" voices, to the exclusion of others.

Thus, when, as a Christian, I challenged the validity of the doctrine of pre-destination, you were not particularly interested. Well, that is your right, of course. But please be fair - do not tar all of us with the same brush.

Sorry if I seemed to not be interested in your take on pre-destination. I was focusing on those who did. I didn't have an argument with you on the topic, Drew.

 

[Alabaster]

Once again, it is the usual "you were never actually saved", "you didn't believe correctly", "you didn't pray the right way" type of thing. This has to do with a person's ability TO believe. A person can't just believe because someone else tells him to. And if, after 30 some years of trying, one gives up on it, somehow I came up short the whole time. Funny that god didn't help me out then.

Obviously. Believing is a choice we make. You chose poorly. But you can choose again! God respects your choices. If you want Him, choose Him, and He will be there.

Did you get too much of a load up on religiosity or something? That can do a kid in.

As to your comment about belief, we believe because our faith has been stirred by the Holy Spirit ministering to us about what is true. He is the revealer of truth.

 

[Deavonreye]

A few examples of errors:

In Proverbs 10:2 there is a saying that isn’t necessarily true. “Ill-gotten treasures are of no value,…” This is an odd statement, one that a person could not agree with. Regardless of how a treasure was obtained, the treasure itself still has the same value, whether obtained through thievery or legitimate purchase.


Verse 6 suggests that a person’s character determines whether or not that person will endure blessings or curses, but we all know that it rains on the just and the unjust, so this statement is nothing more than “wishful thinking” or a way to affect a person’s activities based upon a faulty premise. A person may live a very righteous life, yet find themselves in the middle of extraordinarily horrible circumstances that are beyond their control, and may even succumb to them resulting in death. In turn, many violent people live good lives, some at the expense of others, such as dictators of countries. Similarly, in verse 27, “fearing god” or living wickedly will have no affect on a person’s length of life. Many wicked people live long productive lives, many good people die young. The age of a person at death is dependent upon many factors. However, having a habit that has been shown to reduce life does fit into the notion that those who do “wrong” have a shorter life. Again, at the end of chapter 13, regardless of how good or evil you are, it makes no difference as to how well you eat.


Proverbs 16:3 makes a claim that cannot be fulfilled and therefore cannot be the words of a god. “Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.” This is obviously not something that always happens. It may happen 50% of the time, or about as often as “chance”. Proverbs 16:3 is not always true. In fact, the majority of the proverbs are not absolute, but this particular one could be stated as one that rarely happens, or happens about the same as anything else.


Proverbs 21:17 is another verse that is absolutely not true. “He who loves pleasure will become poor. Whoever loves wine and oil will never be rich.” It is called an “absolute” when one uses the words “always” or “never”. They are rarely true, and this one is an occasion where the absolute is not true. Many people love wine and are filthy rich. There are many who love pleasure and are wealthy. Therefore, Proverbs 21:17 is a false statement and could not have been made by a perfect god.

 

[Drew]

Sorry if I seemed to not be interested in your take on pre-destination. I was focusing on those who did. I didn't have an argument with you on the topic, Drew.

I understand that. But can you see how it might seem that you are seeking out "discreditable" positions - preferentially seeking to bring "bad" ideas from the church to light, to the exclusion of good ones.

 

[Alabaster]

A few examples of errors:

In Proverbs 10:2 there is a saying that isn’t necessarily true. “Ill-gotten treasures are of no value,…†This is an odd statement, one that a person could not agree with. Regardless of how a treasure was obtained, the treasure itself still has the same value, whether obtained through thievery or legitimate purchase.


Verse 6 suggests that a person’s character determines whether or not that person will endure blessings or curses, but we all know that it rains on the just and the unjust, so this statement is nothing more than “wishful thinking†or a way to affect a person’s activities based upon a faulty premise. A person may live a very righteous life, yet find themselves in the middle of extraordinarily horrible circumstances that are beyond their control, and may even succumb to them resulting in death. In turn, many violent people live good lives, some at the expense of others, such as dictators of countries. Similarly, in verse 27, “fearing god†or living wickedly will have no affect on a person’s length of life. Many wicked people live long productive lives, many good people die young. The age of a person at death is dependent upon many factors. However, having a habit that has been shown to reduce life does fit into the notion that those who do “wrong†have a shorter life. Again, at the end of chapter 13, regardless of how good or evil you are, it makes no difference as to how well you eat.


Proverbs 16:3 makes a claim that cannot be fulfilled and therefore cannot be the words of a god. “Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.†This is obviously not something that always happens. It may happen 50% of the time, or about as often as “chanceâ€. Proverbs 16:3 is not always true. In fact, the majority of the proverbs are not absolute, but this particular one could be stated as one that rarely happens, or happens about the same as anything else.


Proverbs 21:17 is another verse that is absolutely not true. “He who loves pleasure will become poor. Whoever loves wine and oil will never be rich.†It is called an “absolute†when one uses the words “always†or “neverâ€. They are rarely true, and this one is an occasion where the absolute is not true. Many people love wine and are filthy rich. There are many who love pleasure and are wealthy. Therefore, Proverbs 21:17 is a false statement and could not have been made by a perfect god.

This has been obviously brought out of your files and copied here.

The proverbs are words of wisdom and there is truth in every one. Seems to me you are a bit nit-picky with God. He considers what you have just said as petulance.