Man is Evil

[jasoncran]

I'm not sure which of my points "are not tolerated". Can you specify, please?

Nazi Germany was an immoral system. Hebrew migration to "the promised land" held many of the same ideologies. Pre-Civil War America held some immoral ideologies, . . . and similar ideologies were condoned in the Old Testament.

These aren't statements of attack, but of truth.

uh no God being the person who gave that land to men. and that is open attack on his word.


by what authority do you even claim that God was wrong? hmm who made you God to say that it wrong.
you cant say that the all knowing , nothing un caring cosmos to which you claim made you gave moral laws as that is what you didnt answer men do evil not God.

the hebrews were promised land by God and he told them to take it. would it have been better if they had died and God killed them?

either way they are just as dead and often those heathen nations sacrificied their own kids at the alters of baal.

and that is why God had the isrealites level them.

and when the isrealites did that he judged isreal as well for that.

the jews in christs time did considered themselves better then the gentiles but in isiaih the gentile was going to be included in the promises and also that a gentile could convert and be a jew and follow the laws. its in the books of exodus and deutoronomy.
and the people could have repented such as the rachab the harlot and her house saw that the lord was with the isrealites and hid the spies. so they heard the lord's works and also knew what would happen but they choose to fight

and on that note the tribe of the gibeonites made league with joshua and the lord did honor that league even though he was wroth over that fact that joshua didnt seek him first

in fact when king saul attacked him his children were cursed and the prophets told king david how that curse had to be undone as the children of saul had to be hung as the that was the means of judgment.


whether they were guilty of that act why isnt said.

 

[Deavonreye]

uh no God being the person who gave that land to men. and that is open attack on his word.


by what authority do you even claim that God was wrong? hmm who made you God to say that it wrong.
you cant say that the all knowing , nothing un caring cosmos to which you claim made you gave moral laws as that is what you didnt answer men do evil not God.

the hebrews were promised land by God and he told them to take it. would it have been better if they had died and God killed them?

either way they are just as dead and often those heathen nations sacrificied their own kids at the alters of baal.

and that is why God had the isrealites level them.

and when the isrealites did that he judged isreal as well for that.

"DEAD" is the key word here! I really have no understanding of why a piece of land was worth the death of people. The land around Israel is hardly impressive, yet it was important enough for cultures to die for it?

 

[Deavonreye]

I addressed an issue of people [children among them ] being systematically killed by the Hebrews, as well as the condoning of slavery, . . . and I am asked "by what athority I claim these things as wrong."

 

[jasoncran]

ever been there? some say that about Florida and alaska why even buy land. trust me i used to think that nothing was beautiful about flat ole Florida yet oddly it has its beauty.

i have seen things here that only happen here ie the rain on one side of the road and then theres the clouds and what they do and how quickly they form and rain.

the many species in the lagoon that only Florida has.

look you have anger issues at god for not answer prayer.

i know a man who was christian that turn agnostic like you did and is now once again in the fold. he has a testimony perhaps i can ask him to join the forum and share his story.

 

[jasoncran]

I addressed an issue of people [children among them ] being systematically killed by the Hebrews, as well as the condoning of slavery, . . . and I am asked "by what athority I claim these things as wrong."

why? you claim that christians are the ones that say it cant be wrong when in fact its was a christian man called WILLIAM Wilberforce that started the abolitionist movement in brittian.

so where did he get the idea that slavery was wrong?

many christians and the quakers.

if christianity is so evil where then can you say that slavery was evil? when christians and others put a stop to it.

William Wilberforce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if god isnt God then again by what authority did the men have to say what is morally right? that means men can define what is right or wrong and that nothing is right or wrong unless its wrong in your opinion.

 

[Deavonreye]

In the Old Testament, god told people whom they could enslave, and how to treat them.

 

[jasoncran]

In the Old Testament, god told people whom they could enslave, and how to treat them.

verses, and keep in mind that if a hebrew was a slave after seven yrs he was realeased and that was for debts and to repay them and later the lord judges isreal for failing to celebrate the jubilee yrs which was that year that land went to the original family owners and 'slaves' set free.

i recall no slaves of the canaanites, the gibeonites were voluntary servitude in that they choose to be serveants in order for protection and btw the other older cultures had slaves ie the egyptians made slaves of the hebrews.

 

[stovebolts]

verses, and keep in mind that if a hebrew was a slave after seven yrs he was realeased and that was for debts and to repay them and later the lord judges isreal for failing to celebrate the jubilee yrs which was that year that land went to the original family owners and 'slaves' set free.

i recall no slaves of the canaanites, the gibeonites were voluntary servitude in that they choose to be serveants in order for protection and btw the other older cultures had slaves ie the egyptians made slaves of the hebrews.

If you go back to why they were slaves, it was usually volentary as they were in debt. Add to this that they were treated very good as slaves and when their enslavement was up, they were sent off with a parachute fund
Now then, if the slave loved his master, he could have his ear pierced on the door frame, and he would be a slave for life (or Jubilee)

 

[jasoncran]

jeff i agree but the contra arguement doenst see that.

its really called indentured servitude not slavery.

 

[Deavonreye]

Working off a debt is not "slavery", for the record. It said to treat them as hired hands. Slavery is what's found in various places, including babies of slaves also becoming slaves for their master. Leviticus also states that slaves were to come from the nations around them. And the slaves could be inherited by the Israelite son.

 

[Alabaster]

Me: "We learned long ago that slavery is immoral. We learned long ago that ordering soldiers to kill non-combatants [women and children/babies] is excessively immoral. We learned long ago that, even IF it is some weird "test", human sacrifice should never be suggested. Unless "human life" is worthless. . . "


These are things that were set up or commanded BY god and those who knew him!

No, God set down the Ten Commandments. Man cannot follow it. They were set down for us to realize that we are incapable!

So, . . . god finds people "precious". . . the beings who even at their best are nothing better than a filthy menstration rag.

As for "sin entering into the world", thus "the evil of man", . . . this could only have been THE plan of god all along, . . . a matrix that could have been designed MUCH better [going under the assumption of a single creator]. But instead, going with this design of chaos on purpose.

God does love His creation, and considers it all good!

God is not the author of chaos. Chaos is from the hand of the ultimate rebel--Satan. His plan is and always has been for man to choose Him over sin.

 

[Alabaster]

As for having those who will "choose to love him", . . . why does god care? Of what value is there in having "filthy menstration rags" stating how great you are? This sounds like god needs people to worship him. I don't see a reason for it IF he doesn't need it. He would have been content with "the angels".

It is the 'good works' that we commit outside of the motive to please God that is considered filthy rags--not the people themselves. Get that straight.

Isaiah 54:6
We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Knowing Jesus and letting His life live in and through ours changes our motivation and the source of all we do changes! We please God by our faith.

 

[stovebolts]

Working off a debt is not "slavery", for the record. It said to treat them as hired hands. Slavery is what's found in various places, including babies of slaves also becoming slaves for their master. Leviticus also states that slaves were to come from the nations around them. And the slaves could be inherited by the Israelite son.

Well then, we can eliminate Jews as "indentured servants" as part of the discussion then . I think you're speaking about this.

Verse 44,

Leviticus 25:44 “‘As for your male and female slaves who may belong to you – you may buy male and female slaves from the nations all around you.

We see here that the slaves are bought from the nations around them, although I would suggest these are peoples from other nations living in the land of Isreal. Thus, we can eliminate God as granting Israel the title of oppressor who come into a land and enslave their captives. That being said, we do see Solomon doing just that... against the word of God. (He did lots of things against the word of God, 1 Kings 9 - 11)

Leviticus 19:33-34 And if a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. But the stranger that dwells with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

We can also eliminate them as thieves..
Exodus 21:16 And he that steals a man, and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Verse 45,

Leviticus 25:45 Also you may buy slaves from the children of the foreigners who reside with you, and from their families that are with you, whom they have fathered in your land, they may become your property.

So we see that those who live amongst the Jews by voluntary means also are allowed to sell their children as slaves. But how were they to be treated and why would you sell your own child into slavery? Me thinks something cultural is going on, what do you think?

But in addition, they still had the responsibility to treat them well...

Exodus 21:26 And if a man strikes the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.


Verse 46 a,

25:46 a. You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually.

And they shall be treated fairly.

Leviticus 25:14 And if you sell anything unto your neighbor, or buy anything of your neighbor's hand, you shall not oppress one another:

 

[Deavonreye]

StoveBolts, you asked what I think, . . .

Updated as I posted it in another thread that was better suited for it.

 

[Deavonreye]

I think I'm going to have to amend my thoughts on "man is evil".

I think that, for the most part, man is "good" because there are societal and economic boundaries set up to keep people in line. I watched Knowing, lastnight, and seeing that, as well as other movie or real life videos, it is clear that chaos is only a serious event away, and people will turn on each other. . . religious affiliation aside.

Not everyone would do so, of course, but I think that the majority would.

Having said that, it seems as though this mindset also occurs within the characteristics of the biblical god. Global flood, up to events believed to be "prophecied" in Revelation. It seems like we humans really were created with the same "image" when we talk about how we react to "things not going our way".

 

[Alabaster]

I think I'm going to have to amend my thoughts on "man is evil".

I think that, for the most part, man is "good" because there are societal and economic boundaries set up to keep people in line. I watched Knowing, lastnight, and seeing that, as well as other movie or real life videos, it is clear that chaos is only a serious event away, and people will turn on each other. . . religious affiliation aside.

Not everyone would do so, of course, but I think that the majority would.

Having said that, it seems as though this mindset also occurs within the characteristics of the biblical god. Global flood, up to events believed to be "prophecied" in Revelation. It seems like we humans really were created with the same "image" when we talk about how we react to "things not going our way".

It is precisely due to man's naturally sinful nature that we are on the brink of chaos at all times. Man left to his own devices destroys. History has proven it.

 

[thecounsellors]

Do you think everyone is conceived lost in sin or has inherited the sin of Adam? I think the spirit was given by God. If one is conceived in sin and dies from abortion, is s/he lost forever? Certainly not. Man chooses good or evil, and yes all have sinned.

 

[Alabaster]

Do you think everyone is conceived lost in sin or has inherited the sin of Adam? I think the spirit was given by God. If one is conceived in sin and dies from abortion, is s/he lost forever? Certainly not. Man chooses good or evil, and yes all have sinned.

Yes, everyone is born with a dead spirit until faith in Jesus Christ stirs it to life and holiness.

Babies, pre-born and born who die are not considered guilty of sin as they have no conscience of sin. God's mercy and Jesus' blood covers them all.