Man is Evil

[stovebolts]

Deavonreye,

Just to touch on Proverbs 21:17, is it possible for one to have everything, yet truly not have anything at all?

Life is about perspective. It's about what's most important to us. For some, their life is engulfed in self. What can I have? What do I get? while others take the perspective of, "What can I give to somebody else", or "How can I help you?"

The wine and anointing oil represents the feast and celebrations. Do you know anyone who lives for the Friday or Saturday nite party? You know, the social lets get a buzz feel good. The proverb asserts that those who are primarily pleasure seekers are never satisfied because the party always comes to an end and when it does, so does the pleasure. The pleasure has been devoured, it's gone and can tell you from experience, sometimes all your left with the next morning is a headache lol.

Paul writes to the Ephesians, 5:18And do not get drunk with wine, which is debauchery, but be filled by the Spirit, which is affirmed by Solomon a few verses down in Proverbs
21:20 There is desirable treasure and olive oil in the dwelling of the wise,
but a foolish person devours all he has.


The Olive oil of course speaks to the oil in the Lamp within the tabernacle, which we know as representing the Holy Spirit to which Paul addresses in his letter to the Ephesians when he says, "be filled by the Spirit"

 

[Drew]

A few examples of errors:

In Proverbs 10:2 there is a saying that isn’t necessarily true. “Ill-gotten treasures are of no value,…†This is an odd statement, one that a person could not agree with. Regardless of how a treasure was obtained, the treasure itself still has the same value, whether obtained through thievery or legitimate purchase.

I know you do not seem to "like" answers that suggest that a text is being "poetic", but I suggest that sometimes such answers are entirely appropriate and correct.

And I think this is one such case. The Bible is not a "textbook" - it is not written with the precision of some scientific or philosopical treatise. In fact, and at the risk of making a broad generalization, the Bible adopts a "story" model for presenting its content.

Here is the text you are talking about presented in context:

The proverbs of Solomon: A wise son makes a father glad, But a foolish son is a grief to his mother. Ill-gotten gains do not profit, But righteousness delivers from death.

I suggest that Solomon is not sitting down to make his case with lawyerly precision. What he says seems perfectly reasonable, given the entirely defensible assumption that he is indeed using literary devices here. To me, he is saying that what is ultimately valuable - escaping the clutches of death is righteousness. And by contrast, if you forfeit that life by unrighteously stealing from others, then, yes, you ultimately do not profit.

Obviously a stolen 100 dollar bill buys as much as one that is earned. But that is not the point - the point is that there is little lasting value in a stolen $ 100 bill if, in stealing it, you forfeit something far more valuable.

 

[Deavonreye]

I believe that one of the biggest errors is the story that, some 4,400 years ago, the world was flooded completely with water killing everyone but a small family. . . . . you know, . . . because "man was evil in every way and no good was found in him".

 

[mondar]

A few examples of errors:

In Proverbs 10:2 there is a saying that isn’t necessarily true. “Ill-gotten treasures are of no value,…†This is an odd statement, one that a person could not agree with. Regardless of how a treasure was obtained, the treasure itself still has the same value, whether obtained through thievery or legitimate purchase.


Verse 6 suggests that a person’s character determines whether or not that person will endure blessings or curses, but we all know that it rains on the just and the unjust, so this statement is nothing more than “wishful thinking†or a way to affect a person’s activities based upon a faulty premise. A person may live a very righteous life, yet find themselves in the middle of extraordinarily horrible circumstances that are beyond their control, and may even succumb to them resulting in death. In turn, many violent people live good lives, some at the expense of others, such as dictators of countries. Similarly, in verse 27, “fearing god†or living wickedly will have no affect on a person’s length of life. Many wicked people live long productive lives, many good people die young. The age of a person at death is dependent upon many factors. However, having a habit that has been shown to reduce life does fit into the notion that those who do “wrong†have a shorter life. Again, at the end of chapter 13, regardless of how good or evil you are, it makes no difference as to how well you eat.


Proverbs 16:3 makes a claim that cannot be fulfilled and therefore cannot be the words of a god. “Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.†This is obviously not something that always happens. It may happen 50% of the time, or about as often as “chanceâ€. Proverbs 16:3 is not always true. In fact, the majority of the proverbs are not absolute, but this particular one could be stated as one that rarely happens, or happens about the same as anything else.


Proverbs 21:17 is another verse that is absolutely not true. “He who loves pleasure will become poor. Whoever loves wine and oil will never be rich.†It is called an “absolute†when one uses the words “always†or “neverâ€. They are rarely true, and this one is an occasion where the absolute is not true. Many people love wine and are filthy rich. There are many who love pleasure and are wealthy. Therefore, Proverbs 21:17 is a false statement and could not have been made by a perfect god.

The above post demonstrates a lack of understanding and shallowness of understanding. It amazes me what both Christians and non-Christians can come up with when ignoring ancient literary genres. The above post is a perfect example of ignorance of literary forms. The wisdom literature you cite is to be understood as exactly that----> wisdom literature. I am a literalist, but I recognize that the bible is literature and there are various literary forms. Not only is there wisdom literature, there is Hebrew Poetry, narrative, law codes, gospel narratives, parables, epistolary literature, and many subgenres. The analysis of Deavonreye concerning the verses do not take into account the literary genre in the least and are thus way out of context.


How about if I focus on the analysis of one of the verses quoted.... Proverbs 21:17 (NAS)

17 Whoever loves pleasure will become poor;
whoever loves wine and olive oil will never be rich.

Typical of Ancient literature, there is ryme or contrast in reason. Parallelism is often a major part of poetic sections. The above verse is not only wisdom literature, it is artistic poetry. I think it would be great for discussion groups to discuss such literature because there are often levels of artistry in each poem or wisdom literature. Let me give some observations...
* I notice the parallelism in the above stanza. The parallelism is about loving the pleasures of this world. It is of course unwise to fall in love with pleasure so much you become poor. Ancient pleasures might focus on things like wine and oil.
* I notice the contrast. The cotrast is between becoming poor and never getting rich.
* I wonder if there is not a parallelism in the section structure (ABCBA sort of thing). I notice that within a few verses, the person who sat the verses in their final form will return to the issue of food and prosperity.
20 The wise store up choice food and olive oil,
but fools gulp theirs down.

Certainly a great number of the proverbs.... if taken as crassly literal absolutes would be quite bizzaire. Only novice and uninformed modern interpreters of Poetic and wisdom literature would naively read poetic or wisdom literature in a crassly literal way. The statements in the proverbs are not intended as absolutes, but as statements of wisdom.

 

[Deavonreye]

In Job,...

...god stated that “snow and hail are kept in huge storehouses in Heaven, and was reserved there for times of trouble or days of war”. So, if we point the Hubble Space Telescope in the right direction, we should be able to locate this storehouse, since the Bible says it is an actual structure. I say this “tongue in cheek”, but the point is that such a structure definitely isn’t located anywhere in the earth’s atmosphere.


Okay, I know that it will be stated that this is some form of "poetic language". It still isn't the truth.. . . . even with "wisdom language".

 

[Drew]

In Job,...

...god stated that “snow and hail are kept in huge storehouses in Heaven, and was reserved there for times of trouble or days of warâ€. So, if we point the Hubble Space Telescope in the right direction, we should be able to locate this storehouse, since the Bible says it is an actual structure. I say this “tongue in cheekâ€, but the point is that such a structure definitely isn’t located anywhere in the earth’s atmosphere.


Okay, I know that it will be stated that this is some form of "poetic language". It still isn't the truth.. . . . even with "wisdom language".

C'mon man. I entirely empathize with some of your "objections" to what some Christian hold forth as the truth. But, please be reasonable - the writers of scripture knew a good metaphor when they saw one.

As I believe has been pointed out - the Bible adopts a number of "literary genres". And one of them is the use of exagerrated "end of the world" imagery intended to invest commonplace events with their theological significance.

This kind of language is clearly not intended to be taken literally. Perhaps some Christians do. So what? Does the error of a few "fundies" discredit the Bible?

 

[stovebolts]

So Deavonreye,
You don't think you can see clouds from the hubble?...

 

[Drew]

Certainly a great number of the proverbs.... if taken as crassly literal absolutes would be quite bizzaire. Only novice and uninformed modern interpreters of Poetic and wisdom literature would naively read poetic or wisdom literature in a crassly literal way. The statements in the proverbs are not intended as absolutes, but as statements of wisdom.

Let it never be said that we do not agree on some things. I entirely agree with what you post here.

 

[Drew]

If I were you, DeavonReye, my concern would be about God ordering genocides in the Old Testament.

Now that's a challenge for the Christian......

 

[stovebolts]

You know that's true Drew. I was actually surprised he hasn't brought this up yet.

 

[Deavonreye]

I just figured that "ordered genocide" and "condoning slavery" has already been discussed "ad naseum" on this site.

I realize that a lot of the OT has figurative language in it, . . . but I just find it odd that "the most advanced being in the universe" wouldn't just TALK [for instance] to Job instead of a lot of psuedo-science/metaphoric language and boasting about how he [god] doesn't have to answer Job until/unless Job has power equal to himself [god].

 

[stovebolts]

Job is a very deep theological discussion on the attributes of God and how he functions... It's not a book to be taken lightly. Some even believe that Job was a gentile...

 

[Alabaster]

I believe that one of the biggest errors is the story that, some 4,400 years ago, the world was flooded completely with water killing everyone but a small family. . . . . you know, . . . because "man was evil in every way and no good was found in him".

That, friend is no error. What it is is your failure to believe the truth when it is given to you.

 

[Alabaster]

In Job,...

...god stated that “snow and hail are kept in huge storehouses in Heaven, and was reserved there for times of trouble or days of warâ€. So, if we point the Hubble Space Telescope in the right direction, we should be able to locate this storehouse, since the Bible says it is an actual structure. I say this “tongue in cheekâ€, but the point is that such a structure definitely isn’t located anywhere in the earth’s atmosphere.


Okay, I know that it will be stated that this is some form of "poetic language". It still isn't the truth.. . . . even with "wisdom language".

It is a poetic description of the truth that whatever is a mere shadow of what exists in heaven.

 

[Deavonreye]

That, friend is no error. What it is is your failure to believe the truth when it is given to you.

The flood isn't a truth, Alabaster.

 

[Alabaster]

The flood isn't a truth, Alabaster.

Sure it is, and the fossil record proves it. We have seashell remains on the tops of mountain ranges in every part of the world.

 

[Deavonreye]

Sure it is, and the fossil record proves it. We have seashell remains on the tops of mountain ranges in every part of the world.

Do you know how plate techtonics works and how land masses can [and do] rise over long periods of time?

Besides, Egypt's 6th dynasty would disagree with you as well.

 

[Alabaster]

Do you know how plate techtonics works and how land masses can [and do] rise over long periods of time?

Besides, Egypt's 6th dynasty would disagree with you as well.

LOL! Yet people who claim that the flood never happened always deny the mountaintop marine fossil evidence. Now you want to explain it. That's good.

 

[coffeeelover]

LOL! Yet people who claim that the flood never happened always deny the mountaintop marine fossil evidence. Now you want to explain it. That's good.

It isn't true that people who don't believe in a flood 4000 years ago deny fossils are on mountains.

 

[Alabaster]

It isn't true that people who don't believe in a flood 4000 years ago deny fossils are on mountains.

It is true for me in many such discussions as these that they do. I am glad to know that you say that some don't.