Mark 16:16

[Charlotte]

Henry,

I wish everyone of us would live by these words of wisdom.

Charlotte

 

[Mac0486]

I do realize now that Mark 16:16 was not saying that you had to be baptised

Great to hear Just that in this forum we deal so many false teachings and heresy, it is easy sometimes to be deffensive. But hey I am glad to see that you were able willing and did in fact re-exmine your understanding of that verse, this is what will keep you safe from cults and false teachers. NEVER stop re-examining your ideas as you learn more and more about the Scripture.

Thanx Henry! I'll try to remember that.

 

[stovebolts]

Please excuse me for being a bit naive, but I’m not seeing where Baptism isn’t a salvation issue. I thought that I studied my Bible enough to understand this subject, but reading the posts here and some other web sites I’m a bit confused.
Here’s what I understand about Salvation. To be saved, one must accept Jesus as Lord. He must have faith as outlined by Paul and Jesus himself. He must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and as a result, he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I think I understand faith as I understand Christianity. It’s not a passive commitment; rather it’s an active commitment. God requires us to DO and faith is defined by ones DOING. James states that faith without works is dead. In other words, faith without action is useless. Jesus commands us to be baptized. I ask if this has anything to do with faith. I think it does. John 3:16 tells us that we must believe in him (faith??) if want everlasting life. It’s ironic that it’s a closing statement to the remarks to Nicodemus regarding baptism. Simply put, Jesus tells us that we must be born again through baptism.
Some will argue the guy stranded on the island thingy… or use the example of the new Christian crossing the street as mentioned earlier in this thread. But I say that God is a forgiving God and Jesus is our interceptor. I can’t remember, maybe somebody else knows where this verse is at in the OT. I think its 1 or 2nd Chronicles. Anyway, some northern tribe came to the south to worship and they were not prepared for worship in the manner clearly laid out in the law by Moses. The prophet (sorry for the lack of details, it’s been awhile and I’m running out of time for the day) Anyway, the prophet prayed to God that their worship would be acceptable. God accepted their worship because they were trying to do God’s will even though they were naive of the law.
My point is, God does make exceptions that are decided upon where your heart and action are. Hence, if you never had the chance to be baptized for any number of valid reasons, then it’s not a salvation issue. If you just decide not to be baptized for this or that reason, then it is a clear violation of Gods commandment and it becomes a salvation issue.
Anyway, I’ll study my scripture a bit more and I’m up for learning more about this in a different light. I believe you never stop learning and I still think that you need to be baptized to be saved as a general rule.
Thanks! I hope this post is clear and consise. I'm in a hurry writing it and won't be able to check your responses till tomorrow.
Jeff

 

[Henry]

StoveBolts

I’m not seeing where Baptism isn’t a salvation issue

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

He must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and as a result, he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is based on ACTS 2:38 which is mistranslated by most. To learn more about this go to http://www.carm.org and click on Oneness Pentecostalism, there is link there that specifically addresses the misuse of acts 2:38

God requires us to DO and faith is defined by ones DOING

Man's idea not Gods. Faith is the hope of things not seen, to have faith means that we beleive the Lord is going to save us to eternal life, based on HIS actions not ours.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Faith without works is not to say that we work for our salvation or that some how we do something that causes the Lord to save us. No what James was saying is clear in the context of the book, that IF we are really saved and really do have faith in Jesus there will be works that RESULT from that faith, but if your faith is merely somethig that you say, but is not in your heart. Then WORKS of faith will not follow.

It is the same as saying "They will know us by our fruits"

Poeple that use this verse, to support the doctrine that water baptism is part of the salvation process. Well, they are only USING it and not really teaching what the verse and the book are really talking about.

Anyway, I’ll study my scripture a bit more and I’m up for learning more about this in a different light. I believe you never stop learning and I still think that you need to be baptized to be saved as a general rule.

Amen keep studing and learning, never think you have learned all there is. But I must say that if you do study and learn you will learn that baptism is a sign of what has already happened, it is not salvatoinal at all. Only a sign and seal of the promise that we have through faith according to the grace of God. We are saved becuase of what JESUS DID, not becuase of what we do.

Read through gal. and carefully study the book to its completion.

 

[evanman]

I believe that the scripture actually teaches "Repent, Believe and Be Baptised for the remission of your sins."

It is not simply Baptism that brings remission of sins to a person.

If that were so, then we could just be baptised.

 

[Collier]

http://www.bebaptized.org/

• To Henry and others: take the time and review this site to answer your objections to baptism. I have reviewed the links provided by ya'll and I ask you do the same.

The only way you can dismiss baptism is by ripping verses apart and trying to explain them away. God is not the author of confusion, yet all you are doing is trying to confuse people to blind them.

• God said it and I believe it! I can post all the verses on baptism and highlight a few words and seem to make my case but does that do any good? We must consider the whole of the scriptures. Yes, the Bible in many passages teaches the necessity of faith, no doubt about that. Yet, at the same time it teaches the necessity of baptism which you choose to ignore.

Baptism alone does not save and neither does faith alone justify us before God.

 

[Henry]

Yes, the Bible in many passages teaches the necessity of faith, no doubt about that. Yet, at the same time it teaches the necessity of baptism which you choose to ignore.

Nope, the problem is not with the bible. The problem is with the misuse of biblical text.

Water baptism is a sign we preform AFTER we are saved. PERIOD!

Baptism alone does not save and neither does faith alone justify us before God.

Sorry, but to me this is something right out satans own lips. He would love us to think that faith alone is not enough.

Baptismal regeneration is a false, anti-biblical teaching.

 

[Collier]

Water baptism is a sign we preform AFTER we are saved. PERIOD!

Then why does the Bible ALWAYS put baptism before salvation?

Nope, the problem is not with the bible. The problem is with the misuse of biblical text.

I agree with that statement. Amen!

Sorry, but to me this is something right out satans own lips. He would love us to think that faith alone is not enough.

Correction, Satan loves for people to think that all they have to do is believe. The saving blood of Christ was shed in His death and there came out BLOOD and WATER (John 19:34). Romans 6 teaches us that in baptism is where we die to sin and arise to a NEW life. Your theology has one in a new life (salvation after faith only) and then the person dies again to another new life (baptism after salvation). Sorry, but we don't bury people alive! There is only one new life and Paul says in Romans 6 that this takes place AFTER baptism.

 

[spiritfilled7]

Mark 16:6 says whoever believes and is baptised will be saved. The key is that the word believes comes before baptised. Plus it says and baptised. So the bible does not say baptism before believing on Christ. If baptism is the way then explain Romans. The bible is very clear that Jesus is the only way to God, and the only way is by repentance.

 

[evanman]

Good works come as the result of faith. They are not added, done because a person feels they must do anything!

The Bible is quite clear about this.

Salvation is by Faith WITHOUT works--TRUE!

True faith always works! Because the one that believes acts on their belief.

Noah believe God so he built an ark.

Abraham believed God, so he left Ur.

Moses believed God so he returned to Egypt.

I believe God so I get baptised in water! If I didn't believe God I wouldn't bother!

 

[smaller]

All the physical water in the world means nothing if you do not Love.

Paul tells us clearly that the only thing that counts is faith that works "through" Love.

Love then is the "evidence" of faith regardless of what you "see" with fleshly eyes.

 

[Elijah message]

Baptism follows being Born Again. The baptism might not always be able to be done in the outward show of our 'profession' of Christ? Yet, the inner baptism of the washing of the persons mind (death to the old self) MUST be done & accepted, to have any import. (judged by God only)

And then there are ones who are only baptised.

---Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

Good works come as the result of faith. They are not added, done because a person feels they must do anything!

The Bible is quite clear about this.

Salvation is by Faith WITHOUT works--TRUE!

True faith always works! Because the one that believes acts on their belief.

Noah believe God so he built an ark.

Abraham believed God, so he left Ur.

Moses believed God so he returned to Egypt.

I believe God so I get baptised in water! If I didn't believe God I wouldn't bother!

Thank YOU and well said!!!
Hopefully everyone knows that baptism doesn’t save if it’s looked at as a single event. Sure, go get dunked and you’re saved…The point was sadly missed. That’s like saying that Faith alone saves, which is like saying, yeah, I got faith, but I’m not going to change my ways… Sorry, that’s not faith. True faith always has works as a natural manifestation.
I’m reading all these threads and I’m really trying to understand the arguments being presented and I’m also trying to broaden my view on baptism.
Can someone answer me this. If faith is not attached to works, then what exactly is faith? My view is that faith always carries an action as a manifestation in one form or the other. That is why I brought up the verse in James. If there are no actions, then what you have is not faith, but rather something else that is false.
Please do not present the argument that anyone can do something with the wrong intentions. Faith comes from the heart, and so should your deeds.
In the meantime, I’m going to try to dig up some history. I know that baptism was around before John the Baptist and Christ. I’d like to know more about who Paul was speaking to and what was going on just so I can put the whole book into context. Maybe that will shed some insight.

Jeff

 

[Henry]

Stove

We are save by the WORK of Jesus on the Cross, and when we have faith in HIM and HIS work then we are saved. Saved by Faith ALONE.

We will have works that follow faith, but not in addition to.

To say that we have faith and then act on it to be saved, is not biblical at all.

But to say, that God gave me faith and as a result I do this and that, is biblical.

 

[stovebolts]

Henry, Thanks for your response. I should take some time to articulate my words bettter, but your were very well spoken.

All,
Here is part of an article that I just finished reading and it really made sense to me.
http://www.dyingtolive.org/baptism.htm

If baptism is just an outward picture of an inward reality, why should we be baptized? The first reason we should be baptized is that is it commanded by God, as a demonstration of our belief (Matt. 28:19; 1 Pet 3:21). Christ commanded all His followers to be baptized as their first act of obedience to Him. For that reason alone, we should be baptized. If you are not willing to take the basic first step of obedience, then it is probably a clear indication of your true commitment to Christ. The second reason we should be baptized is that baptism serves to confirm our faith. Christianity is not a secret religion. Many can claim to believe in Jesus, but the act of baptism puts legitimacy to the claim.

 

[bibleberean]

Henry, Thanks for your response. I should take some time to articulate my words bettter, but your were very well spoken.

All,
Here is part of an article that I just finished reading and it really made sense to me even though it doesn't mention salvation as a direct link.
http://www.dyingtolive.org/baptism.htm

If baptism is just an outward picture of an inward reality, why should we be baptized? The first reason we should be baptized is that is it commanded by God, as a demonstration of our belief (Matt. 28:19; 1 Pet 3:21). Christ commanded all His followers to be baptized as their first act of obedience to Him. For that reason alone, we should be baptized. If you are not willing to take the basic first step of obedience, then it is probably a clear indication of your true commitment to Christ. The second reason we should be baptized is that baptism serves to confirm our faith. Christianity is not a secret religion. Many can claim to believe in Jesus, but the act of baptism puts legitimacy to the claim.

Good points

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks,
Actually, the article does mention Baptism as not being a salvation issue. I had to edit my last coments to reflect that.
They are good points and I like the history of baptism and the common sense approach. I recomend reading the link with either belief you may hold.
Thanks again! I like this site because it MAKES me study!!! :D

 

[Elijah message]

Stove

We are save by the WORK of Jesus on the Cross, and when we have faith in HIM ...

****
Elijah here: Sorry friend, but you cannot sepertate one's faith from their works, unless you are D-E-A-D!! The lost even work for their master with a feverant 'desire'. Gen. 4:7
****

... and HIS work then we are saved. Saved by Faith ALONE.

We will have works that follow faith, but not in addition to.

To say that we have faith and then act on it to be saved, is not biblical at all.

But to say, that God gave me faith and as a result I do this and that, is biblical.

 

[Henry]

Elijah here: Sorry friend, but you cannot sepertate one's faith from their works, unless you are D-E-A-D!! The lost even work for their master with a feverant 'desire'. Gen. 4:7

WOOOOO you got me wrong there guy...I am not talking about the merit or the value of works, I am saying that works do not save, do not add to salvation, and do not keep one saved. Faith ALONE saves, works proceeds according the will of God

As the word says, We are HIS workmanship created to do the good works that HE ordained for us to do before the world was. (something like that)

 

[Elijah message]

Elijah here: Sorry friend, but you cannot sepertate one's faith from their works, unless you are D-E-A-D!! The lost even work for their master with a feverant 'desire'. Gen. 4:7

WOOOOO you got me wrong there guy...I am not talking about the merit or the value of works, I am saying that works do not save, do not add to salvation, and do not keep one saved. Faith ALONE saves, works proceeds according the will of God

As the word says, We are HIS workmanship created to do the good works that HE ordained for us to do before the world was. (something like that)

********
: OK: Thanks for the clarification! ---Elijah