Mark 16:16

[stovebolts]

Can you bring opposite sides of a wall together, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

Those that believe that Baptism is essential for salvation, and those that denigh it as being essential for salvation cannot both be correct.

What came first, the chicken or the egg... And how long will the dog chase it's tail...
The bible does not contradict it's self and it doesn't have to be taken out of context or twisted out of proportion to be understood. Baptism is not a black and white issue as some may believe. But then again, neither is Grace or Faith.
Grace alone doesn't save you. It's what God allowes you.
Faith alone doesn't save you, You still need God's grace.
Baptism alone does'nt save you, you need Faith in God's Grace.

Many places in the new testiment and the old testament show us where God makes exceptions. Read 2nd Chronicles 30 and brush up on your history so you can get a better understanding what's going on, then you will see God's grace and how it's not always so black and white as some may believe.
BTW, Baptism is not a work. It's a reflection of one's faith.

I would just like to have unity in this area among believers. I think it's possible because I think it's what scripture really says.

 

[Elijah message]

UNITY??

Lovingly friend, there is not enough LIGHT SEEN for Unity!

Case in point: Pay apt attention, OK?

Luke 5:23 [IS] Christ stating a Truth!

"Whether is easier, (WHICH IS TRUTH?) to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, I say unto thee, Arise, and take thy couch, and go unto thine house."

Now: No surface reading. Are you FORGIVEN YOUR SINS? (Yet!) If you are, then why must you not also be healed of whatever problem one has??
(The question is not, are you forgiven your sins in FAITH, Heb. 11:13)

It is true that one has the Ernest of the Holy Spirit. (if he Is Born Again)
But the record Books are Not CLEARED AWAY OF SIN until Christ does His Last Work as our High Priest. Baptism is just [one of the many] requirements of the knowledgable ones.

The Heavenly Record books will find if any person's name's are retained or removed, and judged so by their life of Obedience or dis/obedience lived here on earth! Eccl. 12:13-14.

 

[stovebolts]

UNITY??

Lovingly friend, there is not enough LIGHT SEEN for Unity!

Case in point: Pay apt attention, OK?

Luke 5:23 [IS] Christ stating a Truth! YES

"Whether is easier, (WHICH IS TRUTH?) to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, I say unto thee, Arise, and take thy couch, and go unto thine house."

I like how Christ show's his authority to the 'Elite'. The example shows me that Christ does have the power to forgive and he is who he claims to be.

Now: No surface reading. Are you FORGIVEN YOUR SINS? YES (Yet!) If you are, then why must you not also be healed of whatever problem one has?? If your not healed, then the wound will only show itself further down the line.
(The question is not, are you forgiven your sins in FAITH, Heb. 11:13)
Again, they all believed and obeyed God's word. Their faith bore fruit through obedience. What some here would call works, I would call a manifestation of faith.



It is true that one has the Ernest of the Holy Spirit. (if he Is Born Again)
But the record Books are Not CLEARED AWAY OF SIN until Christ does His Last Work as our High Priest. Baptism is just [one of the many] requirements of the knowledgable ones.

I agree that Baptism is just one of many, however, I'd like to stay focused on the smaller picture of uniting those who believe Baptism is a faith issue and those who believe it isn't.

The Heavenly Record books will find if any person's name's are retained or removed, and judged so by their life of Obedience or dis/obedience lived here on earth! Eccl. 12:13-14.

I agree that Baptism is just one of many, however, I'd like to stay focused on the smaller picture of uniting those who believe Baptism is a faith issue and those who believe it isn't.
One step at a time...

Elijah,

 

[Dee_wwjd]

my belief is that if you know you have to be baptised then you should, if you have just been saved, and given your life to Jesus and then you mean to be baptised but then fall ill, you are still saved.

like the guy you know the thief that was on the cross with Jesus, he wasn't baptised! Yet if you have all the time in the world, you should, i think!

 

[evanman]

I like how Christ show's his authority to the 'Elite'.

I must have missed this statement. God has NO "elite", He has an "Elect"--big difference!

 

[stovebolts]

I like how Christ show's his authority to the 'Elite'.

I must have missed this statement. God has NO "elite", He has an "Elect"--big difference!

That was my point. Maybe I need to get better at clarifying myself. Please know that when I say "Elite", I am being sarcastic. 8-)

 

[Elijah message]

I like how Christ show's his authority to the 'Elite'.

I must have missed this statement. God has NO "elite", He has an "Elect"--big difference!

*********
Duh, I am spinning my wheels here too! :

If one has his sin's forgiven in this misunderstood [finished work] (*not that of Heb. 11:13's FAITH) of Christ, then why are they not HEALED of ALL satans stuff, & be in 'perfect' health right now???

Or is Christ mistaken?? (OF COURSE HE IS TELLING A *TRUTH!) If one can 'see' it! Again: Luke 5:23
"Wheather is easier, to say, THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE; OR TO SAY, RISE UP AND WALK?"

AND AGAIN:
No one has their sins REMOVED FROM THE HEAVENLY RECORD BOOKS YET!!! (Only in FAITH!) And only time will tell if one is faithful or not? That is why there is to be a 666.

Now: Will any one be saved who will say, Lord, I will not submit to baptism? And yes, this is just one of many other requirement of Matt. 28:20.

---Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

my belief is that if you know you have to be baptised then you should, if you have just been saved, and given your life to Jesus and then you mean to be baptised but then fall ill, you are still saved.

The argument always comes down to, "Do you have to be Baptised to be Saved". The way I read my Bible, you do in most cases with little exception which would make Baptism a Salvation issue.

like the guy you know the thief that was on the cross with Jesus, he wasn't baptised! Yet if you have all the time in the world, you should, i think!

You would have to assume that the man next to Jesus wasn't Baptised. That being said, this could be used as an exception. If, and I say IF, the man wasn't Baptised, then this is clearly a case where the mans faith would have led him to Baptism IF and again I say IF he were given the oportunity. However, the oportunity was not present. Remember, I am offering that Faith leads to Baptism through Gods grace. Part of Baptism is proclaiming that Jesus is Lord. The man next to Christ clearly proclaimed Christ as Lord. IMHO.
On the other side of the coin, what if the man was Baptised before his crucifixtion. This is a question we will not know until we can ask.

 

[stovebolts]

Elijah Wrote: Now: Will any one be saved who will say, Lord, I will not submit to baptism? And yes, this is just one of many other requirement of Matt. 28:20.

Very well said. Which has been one of my points all along. To not submit, shows the integrity of one's faith. How then would one describe his faith??

 

[Elijah message]

Elijah Wrote: Now: Will any one be saved who will say, Lord, I will not submit to baptism? And yes, this is just one of many other requirement of Matt. 28:20.

Very well said. Which has been one of my points all along. To not submit, shows the integrity of one's faith. How then would one describe his faith??

****
LIFE!
Either way is by faith only so far, alive or dead.
But, ARE YOU ALIVE YET, other than by faith? Heb. 11:13 NO. It is not finished yet! Born Again man is still living in the Ernest of the Spirit stage.
---Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

Not sure what your considering "Spirit Stage". Seems to be a lot of nomenclature that I'm not up to par with yet and I don't want to take that the wrong way.
Can you further expand on your last post.

 

[Elijah message]

Elijah Wrote: Now: Will any one be saved who will say, Lord, I will not submit to baptism? And yes, this is just one of many other requirement of Matt. 28:20.

Very well said. Which has been one of my points all along. To not submit, shows the integrity of one's faith. How then would one describe his faith??

****
LIFE!
Either way is by faith only so far, alive or dead.
But, ARE YOU ALIVE YET, other than by faith? Heb. 11:13 NO. It is not finished yet! Born Again man is still living in the Ernest of the Spirit stage.
---Elijah

**
Sorry S. Bolts, my fault.
The letter of the law killeth, but the Spirit of the law GIVETH LIFE. Two stages of God's 'Everelasting' Covenant Law from sinners to saints by faith. Nothing wrong with the first part, it just is not enough to FINISH the work, OK? See 2 Cor. 3:3 & Heb. 10:15-16.

Now comes a decision. It has got to be done before one is Born Again. (of the Spirit) This REQUIRES total 'will' surrender. Then we are on our way 'spiritually'! The Spirit is to CONTROL our carnal body that is continually being bombarded with satan's stuff. Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9.(everything that he can throw at us! Again see Rev. 17:1-5 for a work done by a free fatal choice )

But this is the Born Again ones 'WORK'! :fadein: When our High Priest's work is 'FINISHED', then our sin's will be removed if we are faithful. See Acts 3:19 for the TIME period. This TIME is seen in Dan. 12:1 and then beyond.

Bottom line was intended to say that any [[living]] person regardless of being saved or lost will be so, by [[their record]] of works, that of OBEDIENCE or dis/obedience. See Acts 5:32 & again Eccl. 12:13-14.

---Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

**
Sorry S. Bolts, my fault.
The letter of the law killeth, but the Spirit of the law GIVETH LIFE. Two stages of God's 'Everelasting' Covenant Law from sinners to saints by faith. Nothing wrong with the first part, it just is not enough to FINISH the work, OK? See 2 Cor. 3:3 & Heb. 10:15-16.

Now comes a decision. It has got to be done before one is Born Again. (of the Spirit) This REQUIRES total 'will' surrender. Then we are on our way 'spiritually'! The Spirit is to CONTROL our carnal body that is continually being bombarded with satan's stuff. Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9.(everything that he can throw at us! Again see Rev. 17:1-5 for a work done by a free fatal choice )

But this is the Born Again ones 'WORK'! :fadein: When our High Priest's work is 'FINISHED', then our sin's will be removed if we are faithful. See Acts 3:19 for the TIME period. This TIME is seen in Dan. 12:1 and then beyond.

Bottom line was intended to say that any [[living]] person regardless of being saved or lost will be so, by [[their record]] of works, that of OBEDIENCE or dis/obedience. See Acts 5:32 & again Eccl. 12:13-14.

---Elijah

Sorry it took so long for my reply. Been busy and I have just finished checking out what you have written.
I like how you laid everything out. It's a natural progression presented with a common sense approach that I agree with.
However, I have a hard time making the jump to Rev 17 from Phil 4:13 though.
Can you bridge that gap a bit for me? I am very interested in what you have to say.
Thanks!

 

[Elijah message]

Stove Bolts, Elijah here:

You say..
I like how you laid everything out. It's a natural progression presented with a common sense approach that I agree with.
However, I have a hard time making the jump to Rev 17 from Phil 4:13 though.
Can you bridge that gap a bit for me? I am very interested in what you have to say.
Thanks!
________

Again, my fault! : Rev. 17:5 finds all there in the wrong [fold's.] Check John 10:16 also. Yet, there are HIS PEOPLE seen yoked and inside, from the Rev. 18:4 verse, these will & MUST leave or be PARTAKERS of the filth.

Now about these... 'HIS OWN ONES' Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 is seen to give the GRACE to leave this! And one must know that it is a REAL test! Notice Matt. 10:34-38.

And Saul who became Paul? What did he give up in position, self esteem and the likes? To be a member in the Sandhedren as some believe that Saul was, then he would have had to be married?? (a requirement) If that was the case, then it must have been that mrs. Saul could not part with this cost & accept Christ? If this was so, then that too must have weighed heavily on SAUL? ---Elijah

 

[Eve777]

And Saul who became Paul? What did he give up in position, self esteem and the likes? To be a member in the Sandhedren as some believe that Saul was, then he would have had to be married?? (a requirement) If that was the case, then it must have been that mrs. Saul could not part with this cost & accept Christ? If this was so, then that too must have weighed heavily on SAUL? ---Elijah

That's a lot of supposing there, Elijah!

Re: marriage--- Paul declared that he had the gift of celibacy in 1 Corinthians 7:1-7.

Paul never stated that he was a member of the Sanhedrin. He definitely seemed to be on the path, "I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers" (Galatians 1:14). However, I don't personally think he had gone that far or the Bible would have mentioned it.

 

[Elijah message]

And Saul who became Paul? What did he give up in position, self esteem and the likes? To be a member in the Sandhedren as some believe that Saul was, then he would have had to be married?? (a requirement) If that was the case, then it must have been that mrs. Saul could not part with this cost & accept Christ? If this was so, then that too must have weighed heavily on SAUL? ---Elijah

That's a lot of supposing there, Elijah!

Re: marriage--- Paul declared that he had the gift of celibacy in 1 Corinthians 7:1-7.

Paul never stated that he was a member of the Sanhedrin. He definitely seemed to be on the path, "I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers" (Galatians 1:14). However, I don't personally think he had gone that far or the Bible would have mentioned it.

**
Hi, maybe you are correct? Yet, the bottom line is that it all could have been that way. And there are other verses that cause 'me' to think that this 'might' be a actual case. But that was not my point in making the remark :fadein:. ---Elijah

---PS: And this gift?? It seems that this came after his acceptance of CHRIST.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

You know I think there is one event in the Bible that might suggest an answer to the question:

“Is Baptism required for salvation?â€Â

The Event:
The thief on the cross that was promised salvation…he was never baptized yet he was promised a place in paradise.

The Verses:
Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 23:39-43 (NASB)
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ?
Save Yourself and us!â€Â
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under
the same sentence of condemnation?
41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man
has done nothing wrong.â€Â
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!â€Â
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, toda you shall be with Me in Paradise.â€Â

 

[Collier]

The thief on the cross that was promised salvation…he was never baptized yet he was promised a place in paradise.

Please do show me in the Bible where it says he was never baptized! That is simply a vain attempt to disprove what the Bible plainly teaches about the necessity of baptism. The fact is that we do not know one way or the other if the thief was baptized. He may have been (Mark 1:5; John 4:1) but we simply do not know.

• All of that said, it is still irrelevant because the thief was not under the NT law of Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

Nocternal X,
There in lies the question that we will never know...
That point could be argued until each party is blue in the face. However, I think it misses the the jist of what God's will is.
You can put a formula to salvation, (grace, faith, baptism) but it really looses it's dynamics when you do that. Many places in the OT and NT God makes allowences. Look at what it takes to be an Elder for example. Each example seemingly contradicts the other until you look at the why and who the audience was.
That being said, instead of arguing about if the man on the cross was baptised (dog chasing it's tail), wouldn't it make better sense to say that Jesus knew what was in the mans heart? All the elements of salvation were present in the thief... If he was baptised in water, then he fully qualified. If he wasn't baptised in water, it's because the opportunity never presented it's self. (maybe he was sprinkled LOL.... :roll: )
My point is, there are many exceptions in the Bible and it always comes down to what is in your heart, for that is always shown in your actions and obedience.
I stand firm with the idea that if your not baptised because of your pride, vanity or arrogance, then your true faith has been shown. Remember, your faith is justified by your deeds and obedience, as grace is justified by ones faith.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Please do show me in the Bible where it says he was never baptized! That is simply a vain attempt to disprove what the Bible plainly teaches about the necessity of baptism. The fact is that we do not know one way or the other if the thief was baptized. He may have been (Mark 1:5; John 4:1) but we simply do not know.

• All of that said, it is still irrelevant because the thief was not under the NT law of Christ.

Good point Collier, however; what I get from the passages I gave is that the thief on the cross was not a believer until he asked Jesus to remember him in paradise…so in that respect he was never baptized because he died on the cross.

The bottom line is this if you accept Jesus Christ you should be baptized if you are able. If you are unable or if you, for instance, die on the way to the church to get baptized then you are still saved and will go to heaven not hell.