Mark 16:16

[Khristeeanos]

Everybody today looks at things with a 21st century mind.

We should delve into what the early church taught about baptism.

http://www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm

 

[stovebolts]

It really bothers me when people quote scripture; yet take it out of context, or they don’t study who the targeted audience is.
Most of the rebuttals against baptism being a salvation issue come from 1 Corinthians, Romans, Ephesians and Galatians.
A common thread that all these books have, (Except Corinthians where his audience didn’t know who to worship and gave credit to “Paul’s “ baptism instead of Christ’s baptism) is that the audience was under the impression that the Law of Moses was the ONLY way for salvation. Paul was simply stating that they had to refocus their thoughts from a ‘works’ view to a ‘faith’ view. Most of the audience already knew the law, but they lacked faith. Remember, before Jesus, it was the Law that saved according to the priests. I hold my ground that Faith alone will not save in MOST cases.
Alright, here’s what I’ve found in condensed form regarding baptism.
Baptism has been around for a long, long, long time. First case of baptism is found in Leviticus I believe.
Baptism has always been viewed as a form of cleansing and it has always been done using the full immersion method. Baptism was also looked at as a covenant. Without going into details, we all should know the covenant that God had with Abraham. We should all know what the sacrifice represented as well.
If a gentile wanted to become a member of Judaism, he had to be circumcised and he also had to be baptized according to the Law. The first century Church taught baptism as part of salvation.
While it is true that faith is the corner stone of salvation, it is only one of three steps that make up a whole. Faith, Confess, and Baptism.
I do not believe that Paul contradicts himself and I don’t think that he goes against what even Jesus said to Nicodemus regarding baptism. It has become clear to me that Paul is making a point in his statements regarding Grace to those who have the idea that WORKS alone carry salvation.
Here are a few links that I can remember using for reference…

http://answers.org/cgibin/wwwboard.pl?noframes;read=169
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1349
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1200
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1165
http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000125.html
http://www.dyingtolive.org/baptism.htm
http://www.bebaptized.org/Jewishroots.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/bap_bibl.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

 

[evanman]

I do not believe that Works added to Faith save.

It is Faith that produces godly works that saves.

 

[stovebolts]

I do not believe that Works added to Faith save.

It is Faith that produces godly works that saves.

Exactly. They go hand in hand, one with the other as a single event. Neither are stand alone. Here would be a natural progression.
1. You hear
2. You believe and accept
3. You confess
4. You repent
5. Your baptized.

Your saved.

 

[Elijah message]

I do not believe that Works added to Faith save.

It is Faith that produces godly works that saves.

*******
Hi, God created man. There he is without the breath of life, DEAD. (no nothing!) Ok, the next step was that He needed the Breath of life! Then he became a [LIVING] soul. Is it possible to be a living soul & a dead one at the same time??? In other words I am asking it this way, can any one be alive BELIEVING OR NOT BELIEVING, AND be without works??? It seems simple to me that they are DEAD as James says??

OK: How about the non/born again one again? Does he work? Who is his master? (see Gen. 4:7's 'DESIRE' slowly read) Is it possible for these ones not to work for their master???

"For [we wrestle not against flesh and blood]..." Eph. 6:12 Yet, is it possible that the 'WRESTLE' part can leave the working physical body lay dormant & still be wrestleing???? (regardless of being saint or sinner)

"Ye have [not YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD, *STRIVING AGAINST SIN]." Heb. 12:4
Sounds like the carnal body is not to control the Born Again 'mind' to me? but that the Born Again MIND is to wrestle (*WORK) with the body that is still carnal? And be 'maturely' in control! The testing in the Garden was for what purpose?

And even then, the (Converted Mind) mind has many 'works' that it must [NOW LOVINGLY] perform that is against its worn out body parts, & its natural desires! Such as the [sin of omission]. But the bottom line is.. :fadein:, we are talking about [works], huh?

Do we 'work' (wrestle) or yield? Notice Paul:
"Know ye not, (?) that to whom [ye yield] yourselves servants (what does a servant do?) TO OBEY, his servants ye are to [WHO YE OBEY]; wheather of sin unto death, or [of OBEDIENCE (WORKS!) unto rightousness?" Rom. 6:16 Even free choice [works], huh?

It is [impossible to be alive], be a living sinner or saint, without works unto belief, EITHER WAY! :fadein:

So.. 'i' think that we agree? Yet, this faith can become 'sickening' to the point of being 'spewed out' by Christ, and seen in a lack of LOVING service of OBEDIENCE! Rev. 3:16-17.

And of course the MOTIVE of Faith is what needs to be created in the MIND! That of Agape Love.

--Elijah

 

[bibleberean]

I do not believe that Works added to Faith save.

It is Faith that produces godly works that saves.

You are right evanman...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Works follow Salvation they are not a part of it.

 

[stovebolts]

I do not believe that Works added to Faith save.

It is Faith that produces godly works that saves.

You are right evanman...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Works follow Salvation they are not a part of it.

I've got a bit to say on this subject, however, today my time has expired. Expect more tomorrow morning. :D

 

[bibleberean]

All my life I have been taught that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. I have the utmost respect for the ppl who taught me this, and, naturally, I want them to be right. But, as you will note in my signature, I seek the truth. Mark 16:16 NRSV "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved..." Can anyone explain to me how this is not exactly what it would seem from just looking at the surface?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This verse appears to say just that but a close examination of the verse is revealing.

It says after the words "he that beliveth and is baptized shall be saved"and thne it says "he that believeth not shall be damned".

Baptism:

The bible says the church has only one.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

What baptism follows a believers salvation?

The apostle Peter preached Jesus Christ to the Gentile Cornelius as is recorded in Acts 10-11

As Peter was preaching the words of salvation the Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius and his house.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice this

After they received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost the Gentiles were baptized in water.

Which baptism saved?

The baptism of that Jesus baptises us with the Holy Ghost. The baptism of water could save no one.

Getting wet will not save you. It is belief in Christ.

When we belived we were all baptized with one baptism.

Notice what Peter says later.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

One faith, one Lord, one Baptism.

After the hearers were saved they were baptized with water.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Water baptism is a work. If water baptism was a requirement for salvation then Paul said a very strange thing.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

If baptism were a requirement for salvation Paul would have been concerned if no one was baptized.

He would have rebuked people for bragging they were baptized by Paul but he certainly would have been baptising people if he thought their eternal soul was in danger.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water Baptism is a ordinance for believers. If a person doesn't believe he could be dunked a thousand times and he wouldn't be saved.

Salvation comes from belief.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Notice the order. Salvation through belief and then water baptism.

The Baptists have that part right! ;-)

 

[Collier]

berean:

• You are a prime example of one that has not actually studied to see if those things are so. Some of the things you said in your last post are so far off it is sad. Your understanding of Acts 10 and 11 is way off base. Have you actually read what the problem with the Corinthians was when Paul made his statement about not baptizing many of them. This passage actually proves the necessity of baptism, yet you only want to focus on one verse instead of the entire passage.

Answer these questions: 1) What was to save Cornelius and his household? 2) When did this occur? 3) Did this occur before or after faith? 4) What was the problem with the Corinthians in I Cor. 1? 5) How did Paul in this passage relate one as being of Christ?

• If you would answer these questions with an honest heart, I believe you will see the error of your previous post.

  Notice the order. Salvation through belief and then water baptism.
  
  The Baptists have that part right!

  Oops! You missed that one too. Notice that everytime baptism and salvation are in the same passage that the rejoicing over being saved ALWAYS comes after baptism.

 

[stovebolts]

Mr. BB
Now that I'm back, I need a few hours to craft my message in a format that shows the logic that concluded my belief. Hopefully I will have time today to finish that.
The things I looked at were context in general with a common sense approach. I kept in mind that Paul was writing entire letters, not books with verses. It seems to me that baptism was always brought up elswhere. eg. galations, corinthians, ephesians. The common thread I found among them was that Paul was speaking to people who where already baptised! Additionally, when he spoke of being saved by faith, it was because his audience 1. had already been baptised. 2. They couldn't shake the idea of the old Law where it was your works that saved you. BTW, NOBODY has ever been saved by works, not even in the OT. IT's always been by faith. BUT, God requires us to ACT, and baptism is the act we must complete to seal our end of the deal.
On a side note, there isn't ANY solid evidence that FAITH alone saves and there isn't ANY solid evidence that Baptism alone saves. The arguments that are made are justified by either redefining what the Bible says or simply ignoring other "contradictory" passages. I believe that you can take the scriptures regarding baptism literally without distorting their meaning and I also believe that there are exceptions to every rule and God does allow for certain cases.
In summary, I will put together my findings in a better manner. I just need time to get it out of my head and on to paper. I will leave with what is written about the book of Galations in my study bible.

Man is justified by faith in Jesus, by nothing less or more. And that he is sanctified not by legalistic works, but by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for him, in him and through him.

I hope we can get beyond this idea that being dunked in water is the part that saves. That is not what I'm saying so please do not insult me in that manner. Of course getting dunked won't save you.

 

[bibleberean]

Mr. BB
Now that I'm back, I need a few hours to craft my message in a format that shows the logic that concluded my belief. Hopefully I will have time today to finish that.
The things I looked at were context in general with a common sense approach. I kept in mind that Paul was writing entire letters, not books with verses. It seems to me that baptism was always brought up elswhere. eg. galations, corinthians, ephesians. The common thread I found among them was that Paul was speaking to people who where already baptised! Additionally, when he spoke of being saved by faith, it was because his audience 1. had already been baptised. 2. They couldn't shake the idea of the old Law where it was your works that saved you. BTW, NOBODY has ever been saved by works, not even in the OT. IT's always been by faith. BUT, God requires us to ACT, and baptism is the act we must complete to seal our end of the deal.
On a side note, there isn't ANY solid evidence that FAITH alone saves and there isn't ANY solid evidence that Baptism alone saves. The arguments that are made are justified by either redefining what the Bible says or simply ignoring other "contradictory" passages. I believe that you can take the scriptures regarding baptism literally without distorting their meaning and I also believe that there are exceptions to every rule and God does allow for certain cases.
In summary, I will put together my findings in a better manner. I just need time to get it out of my head and on to paper. I will leave with what is written about the book of Galations in my study bible.

Man is justified by faith in Jesus, by nothing less or more. And that he is sanctified not by legalistic works, but by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for him, in him and through him.

I hope we can get beyond this idea that being dunked in water is the part that saves. That is not what I'm saying so please do not insult me in that manner. Of course getting dunked won't save you.

Stovebolts,

Where did I say that you believed getting dunked would save a person? :-?

 

[stovebolts]

BB,
Sorry, I probably took your statment the wrong way.

Water Baptism is a ordinance for believers. If a person doesn't believe he could be dunked a thousand times and he wouldn't be saved.

It's always baffled me why a lot of people always seem to think that baptism is simply getting "Dunked". It is so much more than that... Again, sorry if that came off the wrong way. I jumped to a wrong conclusion.

Hopefully I can get all my thoughts in order today. I really want to post what I've concluded. I think this is the deepest that I've ever studied baptism and I am learning as I go so hopefully it will come out right.

 

[evanman]

It is not about being "dunked".

As Peter stated:

1Pe 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It is not about the act, but what the act symbolises.

Christ commanded it--why would anyone refuse to be baptised?

Why should anyone forbid baptism?

 

[Elijah message]

Baptism is an OPENLY seen [profession & confession]. And who would not be baptised??

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me [before men], him will [I confess before my Father] which is in heaven. But whosever shall [deny Me before men, him will I also deny before my Father] which is in heaven."

Even the act itself requires 'burial' plus much else. (see Matt. 28:20)

---Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

I have takent the time to write this in my own words. I hope you will take the time to read it.

There is so much controversy over baptism and how it plays a role in salvation as some choose to believe. Through the past week, I’ve been studying most of Paul’s writings while trying to keep in context with the scripture at hand, the letter at hand, the audience at hand and the bible as a whole.

One observation that became abundantly clear to me is that Paul was writing to members of the church that were already baptized. This can be found and verified in Corinthians, Romans, Galatians and Ephesians.
Another observation that seemed consistent was the fact that the first century church believed in baptism. This may have been a carryover from what the Law of Moses taught in so many different areas. Baptism always represented a cleansing. Also, Jesus commanded it as is noted later.

The early church struggled with the Law. Jesus himself had to explain the law to the religious elite many times. For the most part, I believe that Paul’s quest was to bring salvation to the Gentiles while further dismissing the fact that “Who†you were a descendant of and “What†you did neither ever had anything to do with God’s promise to Abraham or salvation. In other words, because you were a descendent of Abraham, did not mean that salvation was a given. In that same respect, you could not “Earn†your salvation through your works. Furthermore, Paul stresses faith because his audience was stuck on works. They didn't understand that the Law was used to condemn them, rather they thought that the Law saved them.

For as many verses I have seen that preach faith for salvation, I have seen verses that preach baptism for salvation. I have seen both sides of the argument and it appears that to make this verse fit with one’s interpretation, then the other verse’s meaning cannot be taken literally and must be slanted by opinion. I’ve seen both sides of this so both extremes are guilty.

Instead of arguing over semantics, I propose that both arguments as a whole complement each other in the sense that both are right and both can build upon each other. For example:
Mark 16:16. Jesus clearly says after his resurrection, “"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.â€Â

Does this disagree with what Paul had to write?

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

So, who’s right? Is Paul right or is Jesus right? Do these two verses contradict themselves in the literal sense while keeping them in context with their intended audiences?

The way I understand the scriptures is simple. Paul is talking to people who have already been baptized, but believe that the legalistic view of their “Works†has saved them. They fail to put the emphasis on what has always been important to God, and that is one’s heart.

God will always judge us by our hearts. It is God’s grace that allows us the ability to escape the Law that condemns us. It is our faith that enables our willingness (from our hearts) to be obedient to God and it is through that faith and obedience that we are able to be baptized into Christ.

That being said, God requires a reflection of our faith to complete his plan for salvation. One of those reflections (Not a Work, but rather a reflection) is baptism. Baptism is not the act of being dunked in a pool. Baptism is an outward response in faith granted through God’s grace for our salvation.

As there are exceptions to most rules, God will judge us by our hearts as seen many times in the OT. Arguing that a person isn’t saved because he died the day before he was supposed to be baptized is ridiculous. Of course he’s saved. On the other side of the fence, James tells us that faith without works is dead so if you don’t get baptized simply because your bucking the system and don’t believe that it has anything to do with salvation, then I’m sure you can take that up with God when the day arises.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

The way I understand the scriptures is simple. Paul is talking to people who have already been baptized, but believe that the legalistic view of their “Works†has saved them. They fail to put the emphasis on what has always been important to God, and that is one’s heart.

God will always judge us by our hearts. It is God’s grace that allows us the ability to escape the Law that condemns us. It is our faith that enables our willingness (from our hearts) to be obedient to God and it is through that faith and obedience that we are able to be baptized into Christ.

That being said, God requires a reflection of our faith to complete his plan for salvation. One of those reflections (Not a Work, but rather a reflection) is baptism. Baptism is not the act of being dunked in a pool. Baptism is an outward response in faith granted through God’s grace for our salvation.

As there are exceptions to most rules, God will judge us by our hearts as seen many times in the OT. Arguing that a person isn’t saved because he died the day before he was supposed to be baptized is ridiculous. Of course he’s saved. On the other side of the fence, James tells us that faith without works is dead so if you don’t get baptized simply because your bucking the system and don’t believe that it has anything to do with salvation, then I’m sure you can take that up with God when the day arises.

First, really good job on “putting it in your own words.†Your last four paragraphs really drive the point home. I agree with you entirely. For some time now I have been trying to really understand the whole baptism issues and what you have said has put into words what I have always believe on the issue of baptism…thank you. :D

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks Mr. N_P_X
I've been trying to figure it out for awhile myself but never had the excuse. I feel like I'm just starting to scratch the surface... So much to learn.
Again, I like this forum. It makes me learn!! There are a lot of smart people here that really make you think.

 

[stovebolts]

Does anyone find biblical fault with this or would anyone like to add anything to what I've already written?
I think it's an accurate interpretation and I hope to bring the two sides together on this issue.
I'm not looking for an argument, I'm looking to further my understanding of how the Bible was written both from a historical and cultural perspective.

 

[evanman]

Can you bring opposite sides of a wall together, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

Those that believe that Baptism is essential for salvation, and those that denigh it as being essential for salvation cannot both be correct.

 

[Charlotte]

Stovebolts,

I stole Keith's words from another forum, but this says it all.

GRACE!! GRACE!!! GRACE!! It is ALL grace!! You cannot earn it!! You cannot deserve it.... God saves you by His grace, and it does not depend on YOU or what you can do or not do!!


Charlotte