mark 3:21 and the virgin birth

[doubting thomas]

How on earth would you know the tone of Jesus' voice? If you believe in Jesus Christ, then you will believe He never sinned. Therefore, He would NEVER disrespect His mother due to the fact that the Ten Commandments prohibits it! THEREFORE, your understanding needs correction to align with Scriptural truth.

personally, i think jesus was more interested in the new covenant than the old. he said an eye for an eye was now an outdated law. jesus broke many of the OT laws. what's one more regarding honoring your mother? someone mentioned peter getting scolded. was this not over debate concerning OT laws, like dietary laws or something? didn't jesus work on the sabbath?

 

[Alabaster]

Doubt is such a waste and very hard work.

 

[theLords]

because mary was witness to the miraculous birth of her son, and surely mary would tell her family about it. they would call HER mad before they called jesus mad. who knows, maybe they did.

Mary an imperfect human who was born centuries after the fall had the ability to believe even though Adam and Eve who were created in sinless perfection could not?

 

[Alabaster]

personally, i think jesus was more interested in the new covenant than the old. he said an eye for an eye was now an outdated law. jesus broke many of the OT laws. what's one more regarding honoring your mother? someone mentioned peter getting scolded. was this not over debate concerning OT laws, like dietary laws or something? didn't jesus work on the sabbath?

The same promises and curses exist today surrounding the keeping and violation of the commandments. It is sin to contravene them. Jesus didn't do that.

 

[theLords]

personally, i think jesus was more interested in the new covenant than the old. he said an eye for an eye was now an outdated law. jesus broke many of the OT laws. what's one more regarding honoring your mother? someone mentioned peter getting scolded. was this not over debate concerning OT laws, like dietary laws or something? didn't jesus work on the sabbath?

Jesus NEVER broke any Old Testament Law. He IS the Law.

You think comparing Jesus to a preacher (coincidentally, I did not compare Him to a man in the way you implied) is blasphemous, but don't think it blasphemous to say that the Lord broke the Law of the Prophets and was not sinless?

Mark 2:27 (NIV)
Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

 

[doubting thomas]

Didn't Jesus bring a "sword"? Look at ex-Muslims turned Christians. Their very own families try to kill them for their belief in the Lord. These families become divided, but that new Christian has the "peace that surpasses all understanding" sustaining them throughout those painful ordeals.

John 16:33 (KJV)
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

doesnt answer my question: if jesus' kingdom is not of this earth, is he still a prince of peace on this earth or of "thy kindgom to come", of the kingdom of god, which is not of this earth? it would certainly explain why jesus said he did not come here to bring peace (and i already said that i know the "sword" was meant metaphorically, to break up families.... just like jesus breaks up his own family! see the connection. jesus is telling his disciples to leave their families, he's disavowing his own family, he's telling people he's come to break up families... (yes, i know -- galatians 3:28). bit of a home wrecker, no ;)

 

[theLords]

doesnt answer my question: if jesus' kingdom is not of this earth, is he still a prince of peace on this earth or of "thy kindgom to come", of the kingdom of god, which is not of this earth? it would certainly explain why jesus said he did not come here to bring peace (and i already said that i know the "sword" was meant metaphorically, to break up families.... just like jesus breaks up his own family! see the connection. jesus is telling his disciples to leave their families, he's disavowing his own family, he's telling people he's come to break up families... (yes, i know -- galatians 3:28). bit of a home wrecker, no ;)

Did Jesus not overcome this world? Do they keys to life belong to Him or Satan?

I don't know of many people who mock their Lord in the manner you do.

 

[doubting thomas]

Doubt is such a waste and very hard work.

i think that is the saddest thing i have ever read. god gave us critical reasoning. what a waste not to use it. ignorance is not bliss. not to me. the effort and hard work is worth it if you end up more secure in the Truth

1 Peter 3:15

15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

 

[doubting thomas]

The same promises and curses exist today surrounding the keeping and violation of the commandments. It is sin to contravene them. Jesus didn't do that.

did jesus work on the sabbath, yes or no? (Matthew 12:1-14; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)

is that a violation of the 10 commandments, yes or no?

how is that any different than dishonoring his mother (debatable as it may be)

 

[doubting thomas]

Jesus NEVER broke any Old Testament Law. He IS the Law.

You think comparing Jesus to a preacher (coincidentally, I did not compare Him to a man in the way you implied) is blasphemous, but don't think it blasphemous to say that the Lord broke the Law of the Prophets and was not sinless?

Mark 2:27 (NIV)
Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

no, im saying he can be sinless and still break the laws of the prophets. he came to fulfill the law, not honor the status quo.

yes or no: jesus tells his disciples to leave their families?

yes or no: the 10 commandments tell us to honor our mother and father

 

[Alabaster]

i think that is the saddest thing i have ever read. god gave us critical reasoning. what a waste not to use it. ignorance is not bliss. not to me. the effort and hard work is worth it if you end up more secure in the Truth

1 Peter 3:15

15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

Confessing doubt is one thing. Arguing to hold fast to it is quite another. That is far worse than sad. Come to faith in Christ and accept His word.

 

[doubting thomas]

I don't know of many people who mock their Lord in the manner you do.

i didn't compare mary to the pharisees. i didn't compare jesus' ministry to joe the preacher's. i believe the lord my god very much appreciates my gentle sense of humor.

 

[doubting thomas]

Confessing doubt is one thing. Arguing to hold fast to it is quite another. That is far worse than sad.

so yes or no: did jesus work on the sabbath?

yes or no: did jesus tell his disciples to leave their families?

yes or no: did jesus say he came to bring a sword (to people's families)

how is that different from dishonoring your parents, exactly?



1 Peter 3:15

15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

 

[theLords]

i didn't compare mary to the pharisees. i didn't compare jesus' ministry to joe the preacher's. i believe the lord my god very much appreciates my gentle sense of humor.

Romans 3:23 (NIV)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Hitler murdered 6+ million people.
Joe Smith tells a "white" lie.

Neither one can enter into heaven unless covered by the blood of Christ.

You are twisting my words in the same way you are twisting the Bible. That does not surprise me one bit.

 

[doubting thomas]

Romans 3:23 (NIV)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Hitler murdered 6+ million people.
Joe Smith tells a "white" lie.

Neither one can enter into heaven unless covered by the blood of Christ.

You are twisting my words in the same way you are twisting the Bible. That does not surprise me one bit.

im sorry, but i have not twisted the bible once and you have no evidence to back up such a claim. if you are unable to refute my arguments, fine. but do not insult me.

i see no patience, gentleness or respect from you. a moderator of all people. perhaps matthew 15:8 struck a chord with you

1 Peter 3:15

15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

Romans 3:23 (NIV)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

the RCC is glad to know you dont hold the inquisition against them, and hope you can come around to believing in the true doctrine of the immaculate conception

 

[doubting thomas]

Come to faith in Christ and accept His word.

you'll have to a better job as his messenger. luckily my heart and mind are open to reason and solid argumentation (hence my posting in the apologetics thread)

 

[theLords]

im sorry, but i have not twisted the bible once and you have no evidence to back up such a claim. if you are unable to refute my arguments, fine. but do not insult me.

i see no patience, gentleness or respect from you. a moderator of all people. perhaps matthew 15:8 struck a chord with you

1 Peter 3:15

15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect



the RCC is glad to know you dont hold the inquisition against them, and hope you can come around to believing in the true doctrine of the immaculate conception

This coming from someone who believes in such manner:

like i said, my name is doubting thomas for a reason. i have my doubts. my background is in catholicism. personally, the church's position on the inquisitions does nothing to affect my views on the immaculate conception. nor do i think the actions of man have any bearing of the legitimacy of the church as an institution. priests rape boys. that doesn't mean the pope is therefore not god's true representative on earth.

what matters, at least to this thread, is if jesus was born to a virgin or not (clearly i lean no), and why his family thought him mad (and, of secondary importance, as the thread has evolved on its own, as to whether jesus can be said to have dishonored his mother, to which i clearly lean yes). neither questions, ultimately, have any bearing for me on whether or not jesus was the son of god. i don't think the bible is inerrant (nor do i think i have to in order to be considered a christian.)

personally, i think it somewhat blasphemous to compare joe the preacher with jesus the rabbi and son of god (or even paul). too many preachers honor jesus with their mouths, but not their hearts. your mother is your mother, and you do not scold her in public. it is disrespectful, full stop. that said, it doesnt undermine my faith. as i said, i think jesus' family did not understand who he was, and i think jesus was very frustrated at times. and i do think mary has special privileges. of course mary is special. you cant compare mary to the pharisees. it's not like mary is questioning jesus' views on OT law.

You claim Jesus broke the Law? Is that not twisting the Bible? Where is your kindness, gentleness, and patience? I am yet to see it.

 

[Alabaster]

you'll have to a better job as his messenger. luckily my heart and mind are open to reason and solid argumentation (hence my posting in the apologetics thread)

But not faith...

what matters, at least to this thread, is if jesus was born to a virgin or not (clearly i lean no)

 

[doubting thomas]

You claim Jesus broke the Law? Is that not twisting the Bible? Where is your kindness, gentleness, and patience? I am yet to see it.

if you had bothered to actually read what i wrote, you'd know i said very specifically that "jesus came to FULFILL the law". if this meant working on the sabbath, dishonoring his mother, or being with lepers or prostitutes, so be it.

of course, this is all a distraction from the initial argument, which is that it makes no sense for jesus' family to think him mad when his mother gave birth to him a virgin.

you people seem to be holding my "doubt" against me, like i have no business talking about these things since i dount, as if you are better than me. this is exactly what jesus meant by "you honor me with your mouths, but your hearts are far from me".

 

[doubting thomas]

But not faith...

perhaps you missed the four or five posts i made where i specifically said the virgin birth has no bearing on the resurrection or the message of paul or the message of jesus or the good news in general or john 3:16. thank you for paying attention.

and thank you for avoiding all my awkward questions. im sure jesus appreciated your stated attitude that doubt is hard work, so we should all just turn off our god given critical faculties (in the apologetics thread of all places!) and stick our head in the sand.


as far as 1 Peter 3:15 is concerned, it is not me who is the failed christian.



1 peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect