Mark of the beast

[His_nee (Jeff)]

so?? what does that have to do with what God accomplished ??

 

[jasonc]

so?? what does that have to do with what God accomplished ??

plenty, it means that he allows man to flounder and be in the dark at times. if he wanted us to know what the end was he would have said it and he did. the church often forgets that part. but going back to the times of the older saints its clear that futurism isn't it.

you argued that the rcc was corrupt and I can show that the protestents can be just as bad. god started with the early catholics. I can post the word etymology of martyr and its a catholic man whom died being burned alive and has commentaries and letters showing what the church did teach. not a lot but some on end times. he also mentions extra books as well. so if one Is going to damn the rcc then be cautious as the extra books are mentioned by martyr.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

CHAPTER LXXI -- THE JEWS REJECT THE INTERPRETATION OF THE LXX., FROM WHICH, MOREOVER, THEY HAVE TAKEN AWAY SOME PASSAGES.

"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy[king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."

Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled."

CHAPTER LXXII -- PASSAGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED BY THE JEWS FROM ESDRAS AND JEREMIAH.

And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: 'And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: 'I[was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews(for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them

I don't buy the books that is mentioned but the lxx did have them and the tanach was different in its verses of the book of Daniel. it not that way know and it was changed by the Hebrews, I would have to ask about this but I wanted to show that the catholics are that old and martyr was only a hundred years after john.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

you have mixed up something, and i went back and checked - i didn't even mention the rcc nor argue for or against its corruptness. i didn't mention it at all, as far as i can tell (today, or in this thread).

and, again, all that, and the justin martyr link (it's very long, and i could see no good thing from reading it more for now, after reading some of it), again what does that have to do with what God did starting with Martin Luther ??

 

[JLB]

WOW JLB are you sure you know the mind of God?

Sounds about right Deborah13 ...

Well, you know what the word says.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

History. (It's all over the history books and the internet) .... since Martin Luther, hundreds of thousands of people have been set free, maybe millions, from the long deception // from the 'dark ages'.... .... to see a thorough examination, see watchman nee's "God's recovery of truth in the churches" .... it is the most accurate and clearly Scriptural Revelations from Yhwh.
keith green, e.w.bullinger, and many others have also thoroughly disclosed the truth concerning this - it is very widely known.

www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm
(enjoy 3 years reading greatly ! )…

I think we are talking about two different locations and powers. To me it gets pretty confusing those years after the Roman Empire split.

Are you talking about this maybe?
"There is also a history of individual Christian denominations suffering persecution at the hands of other Christians under the charge of heresy, particularly during the 16th century Protestant Reformation."

There's an article I found interesting covering from before 70AD until present. I haven't read all of it.
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Persecution_of_Christians.html

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

that link to pr.nc.t.n starts out right from the start with a grievous error -

quote from first page top >>
"Early Christians were persecuted for their faith, at the hands of both Jews from whose religion Christianity was an offshoot, and the Roman Empire which controlled much of the land early Christianity was distributed across. This continued from the 1st century until the early 4th, when the religion was legalized by Constantine I."

here's a more accurate link without error(maybe not perfect, but 99.9% better: >
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/progress.htm
as proven from Scripture and , well, that's enough.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

here's from a quick search (i was curious if it was hard to find. it wasn't) of the web for (persecution of christians by constantine).
http://www.christian-history.org/diocletian.html

 

[Deborah13]

here's from a quick search (i was curious if it was hard to find. it wasn't) of the web for (persecution of christians by constantine).
http://www.christian-history.org/diocletian.html

This quote is from your link above.

"Constantine and Licinius added their Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. It went further than Galerius' edict, not only ending persecution, but restoring privileges and property to Christian leaders.

This was sweet victory for the Christians. They welcomed Constantine the Great with open arms. He bestowed favors on them, and he surrounded himself with bishops. In every way, they received him as a Christian."

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

very good, almost.... keep reading.... (remember in "judo throw" that he uses as example, the results are not good for the christians)

 

[Deborah13]

very good, almost.... keep reading.... (remember in "judo throw" that he uses as example, the results are not good for the christians)

Never said everything was unhunky dory, just that he didn't persecuted them.
.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

okay. my perspective was that as a result of the combination of power of religious and civil authorities, apart from and opposed to and instead of Christ Jesus,
the followers of Jesus, Jew and gentile, and i think Jews who weren't a follower of Jesus also, and their families were subsequently hunted down, tortured and executed if they would not 'join', and often may have been executed anyway(even if they 'joined') as an example to others to remain obedient to the empire. the time frame i don't have the details of, but it likewise is (i think) readily available online via a search.

 

[agua.]

Great scripture.

That scripture is the perfect example [shadow] for us to use today, while teaching and encouraging our brothers and sisters as well as the youth, about events of bible prophecy being fulfilled today.

What do you think the mark is?

Based on modern technology, it seems the Verichip, with its ability to contain vast amounts of info and can be scanned as well as tracked, via satellite, could be a likely candidate for the mark.

The government is already trying to chip school kids, with much resistance from the parents.

There are many is Mexico and European countries that chip their kids now, to safeguard against kidnapping.

Animals are chipped now as a common practice.



JLB

Yeah JLB the most popular idea about the mark is def an implanted chip of some sort. I think the mark is spiritual and I link with the Jewish tradition of binding Yahweh's ways on the hand and between the eyes ( forehead ). This means to follow in thought and action ( even though some Jews actually tied parchments on their foreheads. )

Deu 11:18 KJV Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

 

[Deborah13]

okay. my perspective was that as a result of the combination of power of religious and civil authorities, apart from and opposed to and instead of Christ Jesus,
the followers of Jesus, Jew and gentile, and i think Jews who weren't a follower of Jesus also, and their families were subsequently hunted down, tortured and executed if they would not 'join', and often may have been executed anyway(even if they 'joined') as an example to others to remain obedient to the empire. the time frame i don't have the details of, but it likewise is (i think) readily available online via a search.

Yep.
Maybe you remember but I can't right now......someone asks Jesus about paying taxes and I think Jesus asks them who's picture it is on the coin, and Jesus says give unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
Oh, maybe I can find it now...got it...
Mat 22:19 show me the tribute-coin?' and they brought to him a denary;
Mat 22:20 and he saith to them, `Whose is this image and the inscription?'
Mat 22:21 they say to him, `Caesar's;' then saith he to them, `Render therefore the things of Caesar to Caesar, and the things of God to God;'

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

tada! good! yes! (btw, i believe all followers of Jesus Christ ought to pay full taxes, not try to be exempt under pagan restrictions.)

but the deceiver has deceived, (that's his job and job description) the whole world practically and to continue in the deception without knowing the truth would keep us or anyone , well, in the dark !

short summary> constantine was never converted - he was never immersed in Yeshua. that didn't change the fact that he was emperor or whatever. but it did confuse the truth, for 2000 years now practically, and enslaved millions or billions of people with a false system (either or both belief/world religious system and political system) .

Jesus never said to give any reverence to Caesar, nor to constantine or any other worldly and especially wicked ruler.

to submit to the laws/taxes, yes. (Jesus told slaves to obey their masters as if they were obeying Jesus ! in terms of being honest and loyal / faithful/ trustworthy -- not if they were commanded to kill someone or (maybe) steal ) ...

people have 'honored' or 'trusted' the untied states government (and churches, too often) for a long time(since before our parents / grandparents were little), but it is not trustworthy. still pay taxes. yes. and obey the laws, yes (mostly). but don't "bow down" to it nor give it reverence that is reserved for God.

 

[JLB]

Yeah JLB the most popular idea about the mark is def an implanted chip of some sort. I think the mark is spiritual and I link with the Jewish tradition of binding Yahweh's ways on the hand and between the eyes ( forehead ). This means to follow in thought and action ( even though some Jews actually tied parchments on their foreheads. )

Deu 11:18 KJV Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

The mark is something tangible.

Those who receive it can never be redeemed and will never be saved.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14: 9-12

In order to buy food and provide for your family, which is what the scriptures teach that a man must do, or he is worse than an unbeliever...

In order to buy food, shelter and clothing, people will be caused to receive this mark on their hand or forehead.

This is not some spiritual idea or action, but a real physical mark that can be detected by those who will monitor this, in order to sell or not sell to those who have or don't have this mark.


JLB

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

practically exactly like the Jews were treated in Germany during the holocaust. the system is already in place, and the laws are already passed, to do the exact same thing only worse in the untied states. the only "PEACE" that is true is in grace in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, the Messiah! no matter what happens now on earth, just as it is written.

 

[jasonc]

you have mixed up something, and i went back and checked - i didn't even mention the rcc nor argue for or against its corruptness. i didn't mention it at all, as far as i can tell (today, or in this thread).

and, again, all that, and the justin martyr link (it's very long, and i could see no good thing from reading it more for now, after reading some of it), again what does that have to do with what God did starting with Martin Luther ??

the bible doesn't say how to interpret itself. while I see that as good but uhm most Christians don't even know what solo scriptura is. they sit and listen to the pastor and when he tells them what the bible says often its his view not what the bible says. how is that any different then what the magisterium does? luther you claim was used and yet deny what constintine and how he was used by god to put the bible that luther used. all those books were put in place under the command of constintine. if the former is bad so forget luther.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

i guess you missed the main point- constantine was never a man of faith in Jesus. Martin Luther was.
Yes, God used constantine according to God's own good design, but constantine did not willingly repent nor willingly serve God. Martin Luther did.
Yes, Martin Luther had severe troubles. Welcome to life. But if you throw stones at those God used of faith, then , well, you might find out things aren't as cozy as you thought.

 

[jasonc]

i guess you missed the main point- constantine was never a man of faith in Jesus. Martin Luther was.
Yes, God used constantine according to God's own good design, but constantine did not willingly repent nor willingly serve God. Martin Luther did.
Yes, Martin Luther had severe troubles. Welcome to life. But if you throw stones at those God used of faith, then , well, you might find out things aren't as cozy as you thought.

martin luther left the faith. the reformation after him is when the schism occurred. forgive me if im jewish and that well this man in part is the reason distant family are dead with in the last century and my ancestor had to invent Yiddish to survive. sure the rcc did hate jews but the fact is modern anti-semeitism owed a lot to martin luther.

 

[agua.]

The mark is something tangible.

Those who receive it can never be redeemed and will never be saved.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14: 9-12

In order to buy food and provide for your family, which is what the scriptures teach that a man must do, or he is worse than an unbeliever...

In order to buy food, shelter and clothing, people will be caused to receive this mark on their hand or forehead.

This is not some spiritual idea or action, but a real physical mark that can be detected by those who will monitor this, in order to sell or not sell to those who have or don't have this mark.

JLB

This is not some spiritual idea or action, but a real physical mark that can be detected by those who will monitor this, in order to sell or not sell

to those who have or don't have this mark.

How do you identify a non Christian today ?