Mary, the mother of the Lord

[Paul E. Michael]

You had said:

you're attempting to make Jesus into God

So, I asked you:

By your word, "God", are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?

You: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

I answered your question.

That's glaringly false. You will continue in your failure to have answered the Yes/No question I asked you, until you have either 1) answered it in the affirmative ("Yes"), or 2) answered it in the negative ("No"), neither of which you have done. Since English is clearly not your native tongue, and you are unfamiliar with Yes/No questions, I'll try to help you to understand what I'm requesting you to do:

• If, by your word, "God", you are referring to the Father, when you say "Jesus is not God," then say "Yes".
• If, by your word, "God", you are not referring to the Father, when you say "Jesus is not God," then say "No".

Until you have done one or the other of those two things, you will continue in your failure to have answered the simple Yes/No question I've asked you. And, the next time you insist to tell me you already answered it, despite the glaring fact that you have so far never answered it, I'll write you off as a lying troll, and not chock up your conduct toward me as merely a product of innocent, gross ignorance. Fair enough?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Jesus the Son is not the Father.

Yes, I already pointed that out, and pointed out that that is an essential tenet of Trinitarianism.

And 1) you are on record above as having admitted that it is a tenet of Trinitarianism (though you pathetically said "tenant", since you can't tell "tenant" from "tenet"), and 2) you are on record above as having asininely denied that the Bible teaches that Jesus, the Son, is NOT the Father.

Contrary to your asinine falsehood, the Bible does, in fact, teach the essential Trinitarian tenet that Jesus, the Son, is NOT the Father. I don't know what else I could do to help you grasp such easy, elementary points as these.

What's your point?

That you shot yourself in the foot by your shoddy thinking and inability to think carefully and rationally about what I wrote.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, I already pointed that out, and pointed out that that is an essential tenet of Trinitarianism.

Seems you have no idea what Trinitarianism is. Trinitarianism absolutely rejects the sole deity of the Father and instead says there are three persons who are one God.

you are on record above as having asininely denied that the Bible teaches that Jesus, the Son, is NOT the Father.

You're on record bearing false witness since that isn't what I said. I simply said "Jesus the Son is not the Father."

Contrary to your asinine falsehood, the Bible does, in fact, teach the essential Trinitarian tenet that Jesus, the Son, is NOT the Father. I don't know what else I could do to help you grasp such easy, elementary points as these.

Then Jesus isn't God. This isn't difficult to grasp.

That you shot yourself in the foot by your shoddy thinking and inability to think carefully and rationally about what I wrote.

Your premise is false. Your essentially spent a lot of time complaining about a typo and a strawman argument.

 

[Runningman]

You had said:

So, I asked you:

You: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

And I answered you the way I decided to answer. I don't have to answer you the exact what you demand I do. Move on to something else.

That's glaringly false. You will continue in your failure to have answered the Yes/No question I asked you, until you have either 1) answered it in the affirmative ("Yes"), or 2) answered it in the negative ("No"), neither of which you have done. Since English is clearly not your native tongue, and you are unfamiliar with Yes/No questions, I'll try to help you to understand what I'm requesting you to do:

• If, by your word, "God", you are referring to the Father, when you say "Jesus is not God," then say "Yes".
• If, by your word, "God", you are not referring to the Father, when you say "Jesus is not God," then say "No".

I am more than willing to watch you make a lot of noise about me not answering your question the way you think you can command me to.

Until you have done one or the other of those two things, you will continue in your failure to have answered the simple Yes/No question I've asked you. And, the next time you insist to tell me you already answered it, despite the glaring fact that you have so far never answered it, I'll write you off as a lying troll, and not chock up your conduct toward me as merely a product of innocent, gross ignorance. Fair enough?

No I have not failed anything. You assigning failures to me means nothing.

When are you going to put up some scripture instead of just making what amounts to noise?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Seems you have no idea what Trinitarianism is. Trinitarianism absolutely rejects the sole deity of the Father and instead says there are three persons who are one God.

Actually I have a larger common ground with you than I have with those die hard trinitarians. The only issue I have is your denial of theonaphony, i.e. manifestation of God, sometimes in human form. He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and later Moses, a biblical fact in your own quote of Ex. 6:2-3.

 

[LeviR]

Actually I have a larger common ground with you than I have with those die hard trinitarians. The only issue I have is your denial of theonaphony, i.e. manifestation of God, sometimes in human form. He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and later Moses, a biblical fact in your own quote of Ex. 6:2-3.

If I was shown a picture with the shape of an elephant and asked “What’s that?”,
I’d say “elephant”.
A cat, I’d say “cat”
If shown a picture with shape of a man and asked again “What’s that?”.
I’d say “Man”.
Shown shape of an angel, I’d say “Man”
Shown shape of the Father, again “Man”

Why are the shapes of man, angel, and God(Father)all the same shape?
Because God, speaking to His angels says “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.
And so He did.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If I was shown a picture with the shape of an elephant and asked “What’s that?”,
I’d say “elephant”.
A cat, I’d say “cat”
If shown a picture with shape of a man and asked again “What’s that?”.
I’d say “Man”.
Shown shape of an angel, I’d say “Man”
Shown shape of the Father, again “Man”

Why are the shapes of man, angel, and God(Father)all the same shape?
Because God, speaking to His angels says “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.
And so He did.

It's all about a matter of perspective. Abraham saw the Lord God, Lot saw angels, others only see two men for sexual satisfaction.

Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. (Gen. 18:16)
Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. (Gen. 18:22)
So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place. (Gen. 18:33)
Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. (Gen. 19:1)
Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”(Gen. 19:4-5)

 

[Rodger]

I am not a Mormon and I am not a JW (Jehovah Witness) something I previously told you already in case you missed it in comment #166. I am a Unitarian Christian, meaning I am a strict monotheist who believe in the Father being the only true God as Jesus and all of Scripture testifies of. If I had to pick a denomination I am most in agreement with then definitely the Biblical Unitarians and most of what the Christadelphians believe are mostly Biblically accurate. However, there are disagreements about little things here and there even among them. Not as tremendously fractured as the Trinitarians though!

Let me ask you something then. Is worshipping as human as God idolatry and is Jesus a human?

O yes, I remember. Either way my friend you are not born again! You are not a saved man! NO one can be saved and deny the siety of Jesus Christ.

You and I can talk back and forth but that is the bottom line and it is actually not open for debate.

Now what I am about to post is not intended as a criticism towards you, but is really intended to assist the average reader reading what we a saying to one another so they can understand the issue better.

There is NO such thing as a "Biblical" Unitarian or a Christadelphian!
There is Unitarian and Christadelphian but neither can attach the word - Biblical.

Make sure you do the study so that you will understand that the sole “essence” of what you believe in the theology you are promoting is simply that God is one sole individual. Where it gets more complex, is just “who” is that one individual? For the “Biblical Unitarian,” you say that you are it's “the Father.” For the Christadelphian, it's also “the Father.” For the Jehovah's Witness, it's “the Father.” For the Mormon it is the "Father" hence my aking you what you actually are.

I say that to do to say that you my friend are a member of a Cult. YOU deny the authority of the Bible. YOU deny the divinity of Jesus as the Christ. YOU deny the Trinity.

Because of those facts, you are lost, dead in your sins and you need to accept the Lord Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved.

Now........having said that, I will leave you to your delusions as I will not and do not have the time to waste on such foolishness. I will only ask you to .............
"Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, believe in your heart and say with your mouth that He is the Christ the Son of God as confess your sins and be saved"!

Then I will be glad to help you understand the divinity of Christ and the Trininty !

Blessing to you as you consider what it is YOU need to do.

 

[LeviR]

Then I will be glad to help you understand the divinity of Christ and the Trininty

You are going to help someone understand the Trinity?

Trinitarian scholars themselves will admit that the Trinity is incomprehensible
The inventors of it even call it “an impenetrable paradox”
A paradox is something that seems absurd or self- contradictory. It is something that can be either shown to be true or false.
An impenetrable paradox therefore must be false.
You might say that one day it might be shown to be true, but until then it remains false.

 

[Runningman]

Actually I have a larger common ground with you than I have with those die hard trinitarians. The only issue I have is your denial of theonaphony, i.e. manifestation of God, sometimes in human form. He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and later Moses, a biblical fact in your own quote of Ex. 6:2-3.

If that's true, I would strongly consider Modalism. Can't God manifest in any way He wishes to after all? Perhaps a talking donkey, a burning bush, an angel, a man, or an image on burnt toast, for nothing is impossible with God. To me that seems like letting the imagination run wild with possibilities.

Can't God be everywhere and in everything? I suppose so so what stop with Modalism and not go on to Pantheism? I have already considered these things.

I am just going to go with the Father because at least I can certify this explicitly. If Jesus is God or men are God then there isn't a clear way to prove it and other men having the same powers as Jesus only raises more questions than answers.

 

[LeviR]

It's all about a matter of perspective. Abraham saw the Lord God, Lot saw angels, others only see two men for sexual satisfaction.

Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. (Gen. 18:16)
Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. (Gen. 18:22)
So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place. (Gen. 18:33)
Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. (Gen. 19:1)
Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”(Gen. 19:4-5)

Jesus identifies himself as the Father. The Father’s name is YHWH or LORD in all caps.
The reason Jesus can Identify himself as YHWH is because “the Word was YHWH” and “the Word was made flesh” through the son of YHWH.
Since the Word was YHWH, and the Word is made flesh though His son, we can identify Jesus as YHWH. Jesus himself has said that he comes in his Father’s name, which is YHWH .

Before Jesus, the Angel of the LORD carried the name of the Father and was identified as the Father.

The three men who appeared to Abraham were three angels. However, only one of them was identified as the Father or YHWH.

But the true YHWH?
“No man has seen God at any time”

 

[Runningman]

O yes, I remember. Either way my friend you are not born again! You are not a saved man! NO one can be saved and deny the siety of Jesus Christ.

You and I can talk back and forth but that is the bottom line and it is actually not open for debate.

Now what I am about to post is not intended as a criticism towards you, but is really intended to assist the average reader reading what we a saying to one another so they can understand the issue better.

There is NO such thing as a "Biblical" Unitarian or a Christadelphian!
There is Unitarian and Christadelphian but neither can attach the word - Biblical.

Make sure you do the study so that you will understand that the sole “essence” of what you believe in the theology you are promoting is simply that God is one sole individual. Where it gets more complex, is just “who” is that one individual? For the “Biblical Unitarian,” you say that you are it's “the Father.” For the Christadelphian, it's also “the Father.” For the Jehovah's Witness, it's “the Father.” For the Mormon it is the "Father" hence my aking you what you actually are.

I say that to do to say that you my friend are a member of a Cult. YOU deny the authority of the Bible. YOU deny the divinity of Jesus as the Christ. YOU deny the Trinity.

Because of those facts, you are lost, dead in your sins and you need to accept the Lord Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved.

Now........having said that, I will leave you to your delusions as I will not and do not have the time to waste on such foolishness. I will only ask you to .............
"Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, believe in your heart and say with your mouth that He is the Christ the Son of God as confess your sins and be saved"!

Then I will be glad to help you understand the divinity of Christ and the Trininty !

Blessing to you as you consider what it is YOU need to do.

After all that you said, "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, believe in your heart and say with your mouth that He is the Christ the Son of God as confess your sins and be saved!" which I do and have done. I already told you I am a Christian and yes I am born again. I find it ironic you spent so much time saying all of this just to deliver a message I already believe in.

How do you reconcile your message of deliverance contradicting your premise of condemnation? What does "Son of God" mean to you exactly?

 

[LeviR]

If that's true, I would strongly consider Modalism. Can't God manifest in any way He wishes to after all? Perhaps a talking donkey, a burning bush, an angel, a man, or an image on burnt toast, for nothing is impossible with God. To me that seems like letting the imagination run wild with possibilities.

Can't God be everywhere and in everything? I suppose so so what stop with Modalism and not go on to Pantheism? I have already considered these things.

I am just going to go with the Father because at least I can certify this explicitly. If Jesus is God or men are God then there isn't a clear way to prove it and other men having the same powers as Jesus only raises more questions than answers.

What sounds more biblical, reasonable and comprehensible?

Jesus is a man who has come in the name of YHWH and therefore can be identified as YHWH.

Or, Jesus is both God and man, but only one person, who has two natures, two souls, two minds and two wills?

 

[Rodger]

After all that you said, "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, believe in your heart and say with your mouth that He is the Christ the Son of God as confess your sins and be saved!" which I do and have done. I already told you I am a Christian and yes I am born again. I find it ironic you spent so much time saying all of this just to deliver a message I already believe in.

How do you reconcile your message of deliverance contradicting your premise of condemnation? What does "Son of God" mean to you exactly?

My friend........I will say this ONE more time. I am not going to go down this road of circular reasoning with you.

By your own words, you are not born again! You are not saved and NO, I am not judging you. I am making an observation of your own words!

Now.....we are done. You can waste your time posting questions to me but I am not going to respond to them.

 

[Rodger]

You are going to help someone understand the Trinity?

Trinitarian scholars themselves will admit that the Trinity is incomprehensible
The inventors of it even call it “an impenetrable paradox”
A paradox is something that seems absurd or self- contradictory. It is something that can be either shown to be true or false.
An impenetrable paradox therefore must be false.
You might say that one day it might be shown to be true, but until then it remains false.

Good point! You are correct. There are TWO Bible doctrines that are very, very difficult to grasp. Predestination and the Trinity.

I would not agree that it was "Invented".

I should have said....."I will try to help you understand the Word of God".

You said.......
"You might say that one day it might be shown to be true, but until then it remains false."

No sir, I can not agree with that. I would agree that it may be unknown but not false.

Some doctrines in the Scripture have only been understood when God wanted them to be understood.

One of those would of course be "Saved by Grace alone". One of the rallying cries of the Reformation was “Sola Gratia” – a Latin phrase declaring that salvation is by grace alone.

But if you were to enter the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany church on October 30th, 1517 – the day prior to Martin Luther nailing his 95 Thesis to the door – and asked the priest whether the Roman Catholic church taught salvation by works or by grace, you would have been told that BOTH ARE REQUIRED.

MY point is......some things are not revealed untill it is God's time even though the actual words are/were in the Bible Scriptures all along.

Thanks for pointing out my error.

 

[KV-44-v1]

After all that you said, "Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, believe in your heart and say with your mouth that He is the Christ the Son of God as confess your sins and be saved!" which I do and have done. I already told you I am a Christian and yes I am born again. I find it ironic you spent so much time saying all of this just to deliver a message I already believe in.

How do you reconcile your message of deliverance contradicting your premise of condemnation? What does "Son of God" mean to you exactly?

so believe upon a human who wasnt God, from your perspective. loool.
doesnt that just sound silly.
Jesus is God. trying to repeat islamic talking points wont help your case.

 

[KV-44-v1]

I didn't mention worship. You argued that glory ought to be given to God and God only, but in 7:11 it clearly states "
Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive ..." So yes, Jesus is a distinct being, and glory, honor and power are given to him as well as God, worshiping both God and Jesus are not mutually exclusive. You ignored this part on purpose and proposed a false dichotomy.

yes, the unitarians are NOT known for their courage. they with their fake beliefs (unitarian) and arational thinking hide and confuse.
darkness (either sin induced darkness, or just simply mental darkness ie confusion) does not comprehend the Trinity. God is Love.
natural man HATES the trinity concept... **all** unitarians are in a sense, OF the world....

 

[KV-44-v1]

sole deity of the Father and instead says there are three persons who are one God.

Not a single Bible verse belittles Jesus like you do. all you can do is throw "human Jesus" verses around but all they ever do is show the human aspect of Jesus. nobody thinks that they exclude His divinity unless they muslim or etc.
you have the weird view that "if human then not God"
what part of OMNIPOTENT do you not understand?? if Jesus came back you would be denying His divinity again. you are making the same error the pharisees made, deny Jesus' Divinity and even hate His Divinity.

the only Man with a Divine Side was Jesus, fully man fully God....
thats why He was sinless.... Jesus is God but not the Father, youll never be His High Preist because you LACK OF KNOWLEDGE......

 

[KV-44-v1]

God is literally Omnipotent you dont know He can come down as a human? wow lol, denying Jesus' Divinity leads to rejecting God's omnipotence. what a sad view unitarianism is.

let me guess, you also believe that the lake of fire is not real?? lool

 

[Rodger]

Not a single Bible verse belittles Jesus like you do. all you can do is throw "human Jesus" verses around but all they ever do is show the human aspect of Jesus. nobody thinks that they exclude His divinity unless they muslim or etc.
you have the weird view that "if human then not God"
what part of OMNIPOTENT do you not understand?? if Jesus came back you would be denying His divinity again. you are making the same error the pharisees made, deny Jesus' Divinity and even hate His Divinity.

the only Man with a Divine Side was Jesus, fully man fully God....
thats why He was sinless.... Jesus is God but not the Father, youll never be His High Preist because you LACK OF KNOWLEDGE......

Agrreed.