Bible Study Matt. 25;46

[GodsGrace]

Concerning the Fall:

I certainly believe the fall was all part of God's plan. If it wasn't, as I have said, then something occurred outside of God's will. satan messed up God's plan. And I don't believe that.

In other words, Adam and Eve in a pristine environment was not the goal. It was but a means to the goal. That goal being sons, not just made by God, but born of God. And that was not possible without the death and rebirth. (John 12:24).

Much like the Mosaic Law. Many treat it as the goal of God. But it was but a means to the goal. Note what David said when he was repenting for his sins. (Ps. 51:16) "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt-offering." But the Lord did require the sacrifices. But David saw beyond that. The Mosaic sacrifices were but a means to an end. The end being a broken spirit, and contrite heart. (51:17.

Concerning satan's wish for mankind:

satan will never be 'sovereign' as God, though that is his desire. It doesn't matter that he can't be. he wants to be. And, at this time he certainly has authority over the earth. That authority doesn't exceed God's authority. But he has authority. he is the prince of this world. (2 Cor. 4:4) (Eph. 2:2)

satan has antagonism against man because God is going to usurp satans authority over the world and give it to man, who is much lesser at this time than the angels. (Heb. 1:4-14)

satan uses man to come against God, to be like God. satan seeks rule over the earth through rebellion. But God is going to give it to man, through that Man Jesus Christ, through submission to God.

This I believe is his goal.

Concerning (John 1:13)

Man has a will. And that will is exercised. (John 1:12) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe." The receiving and believing are one act here, not two.

But, to those who believe and receive Christ, they do so only because God affects their will. He opens their eyes. (Matt. 16:13-17) "...Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Thus our faith, our believe in Christ is too a gift from God. (Eph. 2:8)

So, (John 1:13) says, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." It is not just the act of rebirth, but the will is emphasized here. Man's will is excluded. God's will is the deciding factor. Just as (Matt. 16:13-17) says also.

Even your faith is not you making a good decision to follow God. It is God has opened your eyes to see. Your will is acted upon by God. Your will is not free.

Quantrill

Hi Quantrill,
I can't go back and forth with you about the same topic when nothing new is written.

I'll put it to you very bluntly....

Calvinism messes up the bible very badly.
Your idea that man does not have free will messes up every book in the bible, starting with Genesis.
Your idea about satan is messed up because you think God's free will or sovereignty is at stake. When, really, it is not.
You can't even understand John 1:13, which does NOT say what you THINK it does.

I'll tell you something else. Many Calvinists worry about their salvation.
How could you be sure you're saved until your death comes?
You MUST persevere till the end because this is the only way you could prove that GOD PICKED YOU.


Think about it.

On a practical level, Calvinists do not claim to know who is elect and who is not, and the only guide they have is the verbal testimony and good works (or "fruit") of each individual. "Pastors do not know infallibly who of his listeners are the good soil and who are the bad."[11] Any who "fall away" (that is, do not persevere in the Christian faith until death) is assumed not to have been truly converted to begin with, though Calvinists do not claim to know with certainty who did and who did not persevere.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Reformed_doctrine

**************************************************************************************************************

Calvin believed that God produces in us the will to obey....
so that if we do not obey, it surely means that we are no saved.
From Calvin's Institutes:

"For so much is the will of the saints inflamed by the Holy Spirit, that they are able, because they are willing; and willing, because God worketh in them so to will." For if, in such weakness (in which, however, to suppress pride, "strength" must be made "perfect,") their own will is left to them, in such sense that, by the help of God, they are able, if they will, while at the same time God does not work in them so as to make them will; among so many temptations and infirmities the will itself would give way, and, consequently, they would not be able to persevere. Therefore, to meet the infirmity of the human will, and prevent it from failing, how weak soever it might be, divine grace was made to act on it inseparably and uninterruptedly. Augustine (ibid. cap. 14). next entering fully into the question, how our hearts follow the movement when God affects them, necessarily says, indeed, that the Lord draws men by their own wills; wills, however, which he himself has produced. We have now an attestation by Augustine to the truth which we are specially desirous to maintain--viz. that the grace offered by the Lord is not merely one which every individual has full liberty of choosing to receive or reject, but a grace which produces in the heart both choice and will: so that all the good works which follow after are its fruit and effect;

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/history/calvin-institutes-christianity/book2/chapter-3.html

 

[for_his_glory]

He can't. But, that doesn't stop him form trying. You are correct. The book of Job reveals this. As does the rest of Scripture. Just as Job's trials were.

This is why the fall of man was always the plan of God. satan isn't trying to do God's will. he is doing it for evil purposes. Much like the Assyrian in (Is. 10:6-7).

Quantrill

Here is a snippet of what dispensationalist believe about it being God's plan for man to fall. You can find the full at quora.com - Was The Fall of Adam and Eve part of God's plan?

The fall of Adam and Eve was not only a part of God's plan, it was the very key to initiate the strategy that would force Jesus to return to this earth after His ascension into Heaven after His crucifixion and resurrection.

This is nothing more then a heretic teaching stemming from man's theory and not from scripture.

 

[Quantrill]

Hi Quantrill,
I can't go back and forth with you about the same topic when nothing new is written.

I'll put it to you very bluntly....

Calvinism messes up the bible very badly.
Your idea that man does not have free will messes up every book in the bible, starting with Genesis.
Your idea about satan is messed up because you think God's free will or sovereignty is at stake. When, really, it is not.
You can't even understand John 1:13, which does NOT say what you THINK it does.

I'll tell you something else. Many Calvinists worry about their salvation.
How could you be sure you're saved until your death comes?
You MUST persevere till the end because this is the only way you could prove that GOD PICKED YOU.


Think about it.

On a practical level, Calvinists do not claim to know who is elect and who is not, and the only guide they have is the verbal testimony and good works (or "fruit") of each individual. "Pastors do not know infallibly who of his listeners are the good soil and who are the bad."[11] Any who "fall away" (that is, do not persevere in the Christian faith until death) is assumed not to have been truly converted to begin with, though Calvinists do not claim to know with certainty who did and who did not persevere.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Reformed_doctrine

**************************************************************************************************************

Calvin believed that God produces in us the will to obey....
so that if we do not obey, it surely means that we are no saved.
From Calvin's Institutes:

"For so much is the will of the saints inflamed by the Holy Spirit, that they are able, because they are willing; and willing, because God worketh in them so to will." For if, in such weakness (in which, however, to suppress pride, "strength" must be made "perfect,") their own will is left to them, in such sense that, by the help of God, they are able, if they will, while at the same time God does not work in them so as to make them will; among so many temptations and infirmities the will itself would give way, and, consequently, they would not be able to persevere. Therefore, to meet the infirmity of the human will, and prevent it from failing, how weak soever it might be, divine grace was made to act on it inseparably and uninterruptedly. Augustine (ibid. cap. 14). next entering fully into the question, how our hearts follow the movement when God affects them, necessarily says, indeed, that the Lord draws men by their own wills; wills, however, which he himself has produced. We have now an attestation by Augustine to the truth which we are specially desirous to maintain--viz. that the grace offered by the Lord is not merely one which every individual has full liberty of choosing to receive or reject, but a grace which produces in the heart both choice and will: so that all the good works which follow after are its fruit and effect;

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/history/calvin-institutes-christianity/book2/chapter-3.html

Again, I am not defending or preaching Calvinism. I am aware of Calvinism and what it teaches. On the whole I agree with it, but not all of it.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Here is a snippet of what dispensationalist believe about it being God's plan for man to fall. You can find the full at quora.com - Was The Fall of Adam and Eve part of God's plan?

The fall of Adam and Eve was not only a part of God's plan, it was the very key to initiate the strategy that would force Jesus to return to this earth after His ascension into Heaven after His crucifixion and resurrection.

This is nothing more then a heretic teaching stemming from man's theory and not from scripture.

Join the band wagon in accusing me of being a heretic. You and I both know that I will be banned.

Quantrill

 

[Hospes]

satan will never be 'sovereign' as God, though that is his desire. It doesn't matter that he can't be. he wants to be. And, at this time he certainly has authority over the earth. That authority doesn't exceed God's authority. But he has authority. he is the prince of this world. (2 Cor. 4:4) (Eph. 2:2)

Q, given what you have written above, how do you reconcile it with Christ's assertion that He has all authority? (Not picking a fight; just curious.)

Matthew 28:18 (ESV)​

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."​

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, I am not defending or preaching Calvinism. I am aware of Calvinism and what it teaches. On the whole I agree with it, but not all of it.

Quantrill

Which parts do you agree with?
Which parts do you not agree with?

That's like me saying: Well, I'm KIIND OF Catholic...but not really.
How is anyone supposed to know how to talk to me about theology if they don't even understand what I believe??

I think that if a person is going to be a Calvinist,,,then they should go all the way.
If you believe one of the 5 points of TULIP, then you really have to believe all because they are intertwined.

 

[Quantrill]

Q, given what you have written above, how do you reconcile it with Christ's assertion that He has all authority? (Not picking a fight; just curious.)

Matthew 28:18 (ESV)​

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."​

Sorry for not responding earlier. I thought I had answered this already. Perhaps it got deleted.

Christ does have all authority given Him from God in Heaven and Earth. This is why the authority satan has does not exceed Christ's authority. As Jesus said, satan has nothing in Him. (John 14:30)

But satan is given authority over the world system in order to play out the spiritual warfare that will result in the Kingdoms of the world being brought into submission to the Kingdom of God. (Rev. 11:15)

In other words, this authority to satan and his role on earth, is all under the authority of Christ and God.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Which parts do you agree with?
Which parts do you not agree with?

That's like me saying: Well, I'm KIIND OF Catholic...but not really.
How is anyone supposed to know how to talk to me about theology if they don't even understand what I believe??

I think that if a person is going to be a Calvinist,,,then they should go all the way.
If you believe one of the 5 points of TULIP, then you really have to believe all because they are intertwined.

Well, I'm not trying to be a Calvinist which is why I am not trying to defend Calvinism. Are there not some things you believe that Catholics believe also? Of course there are.

I agree with total depravity but not to the point where it is said one is born-again first and then believes. I agree with unconditional election, but my understanding of election is not the same as Calvinism. It is not God observing people down here and then choosing who will be saved. It is God knows who His people are.

I do disagree completely with limited atonement. It is not limited in scope but is limited in it's final implementation. As far as irresistible grace, I don't have a problem with it, but I think it is covered in the other points already, such as election. I do agree with the preservation of the saints.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

I do agree with the preservation of the saints.

I think you mean perseverance of the saints.

 

[rstrats]

A number of the posts here seem to based on the idea that beliefs can be consciously chosen (i.e., engendered} and of course that is not possible.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, I'm not trying to be a Calvinist which is why I am not trying to defend Calvinism. Are there not some things you believe that Catholics believe also? Of course there are.

I agree with total depravity but not to the point where it is said one is born-again first and then believes. I agree with unconditional election, but my understanding of election is not the same as Calvinism. It is not God observing people down here and then choosing who will be saved. It is God knows who His people are.

I do disagree completely with limited atonement. It is not limited in scope but is limited in it's final implementation. As far as irresistible grace, I don't have a problem with it, but I think it is covered in the other points already, such as election. I do agree with the preservation of the saints.

Quantrill

Yes, you are being ganged up on.
Because you appear to be on the other side of most believers here.
There is nothing that glorifies God in this thread, just arguing about who is right and who is wrong.
Where do we find that in the Bible?
Does anyone know?

 

[Hospes]

Sorry for not responding earlier. I thought I had answered this already. Perhaps it got deleted.

Christ does have all authority given Him from God in Heaven and Earth. This is why the authority satan has does not exceed Christ's authority. As Jesus said, satan has nothing in Him. (John 14:30)

But satan is given authority over the world system in order to play out the spiritual warfare that will result in the Kingdoms of the world being brought into submission to the Kingdom of God. (Rev. 11:15)

In other words, this authority to satan and his role on earth, is all under the authority of Christ and God.

Quantrill

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I think you are correct.

Ultimately all authority is from the Godhead and from there is delegated. Interestingly, delegated authority is still retained by the one delegating it.

A profound statement by Jesus to Pilate:

“You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.” John 19:11 (ESV)​

​

So the very worst sin ever committed against our Lord was carried out under the delegated authority of God.

 

[Hospes]

Well, I'm not trying to be a Calvinist

Yeh, I don't try to be a Calvinist either, but I found myself to be one. In this forum, once you're willing to state it, it's like sticking your head out above the foxhole!

BTW, by my best judgment, what you say you believe on the Five Points of Calvinism is not what Reformed theology teaches. So you're safe!

 

[Hospes]

A number of the posts here seem to based on the idea that beliefs can be consciously chosen (i.e., engendered} and of course that is not possible.

Interesting statement. I'd like to better understand what you mean. When I accept the truth claim of a statement, did I not consciously choose it?

Not trying to pick an argument. I'd just like to know what you're thinking, if you're up for it.

 

[JLB]

Yeh, I don't try to be a Calvinist either, but I found myself to be one.

Wouldn’t it be great if we all could aspire to be sons of God and teach as well as live out what Jesus taught?


I believe this would glorify God. Rollo Tamasi




JLB

 

[humble soul]

A priest once told me that if you're seeking God, you've already found him

That's reassuring actually. Thanks. But am I actually searching for Him?.
You can be searching for God and running away from Him at the same time. A bit like running on a treadmill. Running but getting nowhere.

 

[rstrats]

Hospes,
re: " I'd like to better understand what you mean...I'd just like to know what you're thinking."

Actually, I said what I thought. I think you're really asking why I thought it.

I've never been able to consciously engender any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability complied with my request. Thus my comment in the previous post was based on that experience. However, in thinking about, it probably would have been better if I had said: "A number of the posts here seem to based on the idea that beliefs can be consciously chosen (i.e., engendered). However, I don't think that it is possible to consciously choose to believe things."


re: "When I accept the truth claim of a statement, did I not consciously choose it?"

Based on my experience, I would say no. When a new belief is realized, I would guess that it has very likely come about by some process occurring in one's subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, experience, etc.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Wouldn’t it be great if we all could aspire to be sons of God and teach as well as live out what Jesus taught?


I believe this would glorify God. Rollo Tamasi




JLB

Amen!

 

[Quantrill]

Yes, you are being ganged up on.
Because you appear to be on the other side of most believers here.
There is nothing that glorifies God in this thread, just arguing about who is right and who is wrong.
Where do we find that in the Bible?
Does anyone know?

Well, the whole book of (Job) is about debate and who is right and wrong. Plus Paul argued constantly his doctrines. (Acts 19:9)

And what do you think Jesus was doing in arguing and discussing with the Pharisees so often?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I think you are correct.

Ultimately all authority is from the Godhead and from there is delegated. Interestingly, delegated authority is still retained by the one delegating it.

A profound statement by Jesus to Pilate:

“You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.” John 19:11 (ESV)​

​

So the very worst sin ever committed against our Lord was carried out under the delegated authority of God.

I agree.

Quantrill