Bible Study Matt. 25;46

[Quantrill]

No one can trump the hand of God. If we fail the test God sets before us then we are not being faithful to His commands.

So, was the fall of man God's plan or not. As you say, no one can trump the hand of God?

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

"we get one chance to do things right".

We do get one chance to do things right before the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Christ returns on the last day of this present earth.

These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The description of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arrayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.

 

[for_his_glory]

So, was the fall of man God's plan or not. As you say, no one can trump the hand of God?

Quantrill

not a plan, but a test like He test all of us

 

[for_his_glory]

God gives us blessings or cursing by the free choices we choose to make in this life, Deuteronomy 27, 28, as it is only our self that falls to temptations just like Adam. No one forced him to eat of the tree, it was his own choice to disobey God and believe a lie.

 

[Quantrill]

not a plan, but a test like He test all of us

So satan trumped God.

Quantrill

 

[Hopeful]

Who said "they" will be able to talk to those in hell?
Certainly not me.
I t hink I have a problem explaining myself to you.

Weren't Abraham and the rich man communicating with each other in Jesus' parable?

As to what God would make happen, or not make happen...
I think we should leave that up to God since He has His own reasons and plans for us.
I believe there will be MUCH anguish at the last judgement, and even immediately after death.
Many that do not believe will become instant believers, but it will be too late for them.

They will have no choice but to believe, but as you say, it will be too late.

As to Luke 16:19-31....Lazarus and the Rich Man....many theologians believe this was not a parable but the telling
of how life was after death at that point in time.

I really don't know of any writings referring to the after-life in the OT.
I wonder what they used as their source of info'.

Did you know that the dead in Christ were awaiting His death and resurrection?

To be "dead in Christ" there would first have been a death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that we could be water baptized into. (Rom 6:3-6)
The dead in Christ are awaiting His return.

Heaven's gates were closed to us until then....
So we waited in Abraham's Bossom (Hades) as is described in Luke 16.

That parable may indeed been understood that way, as reality, in Jesus' time.
But I see nothing in the bible on which to base it.
Contrarily, I see the dead raised from the graves at the return of Christ.
I also understand that the words "hell" and "hades" is often used to indicate the grave.

 

[Hopeful]

We do get one chance to do things right before the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Christ returns on the last day of this present earth.

These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The description of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arrayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.

Good insights.
But what did the sentences concerning priestly garments have to do with anything?

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, you have a different definition of Free Will than those that are reformed. I gave you the definition of Johnathan Edwards who was reformed.
R.C. Sproul was reformed ... He said free will is: we always choose according to our inclinations, and we always choose according to our strongest inclination at a given moment. Yes, I agree that God convinced (if you want to use the word "forced" I can live with that I suppose) us to do what He wanted. We do it willingly due to outside forces.

If you do anything because of an outside force...it is not free will.
And yes, RC Sproul made a lot sound good that really isn't.
Study John Calvin's Institutes or the Westminster Confession of Faith and find out for yourself.

Agreed with one exception. The choice we make will be out of our will when we define "free will" as "we always choice what we desire most at the time".
If I apply your definition of Libertarian Free Will then I agree with the statement entirely.

Replied to the above.

The crux of our difference is what definition of Free Will to use. Again, reformed doctrine obviously does not apply the Libertarian Free Will definition to their doctrine; yet, you insist on applying your definition when describing reformed doctrine. We (reformed) get to define the words we use to explain our doctrine. When you describe arminian doctrine I am sure you don't use reforms definition of "free will" and you should expect Reformed doctrine to use yours.

I don't know if I'm Arminium. I never studied him...I like to study the bible, the written word of God.
And I insist on using my definition of compatible free will because that's what the calvinist definition is.
It's kind of like speaking to different Catholics and they all tell you a different concept of a doctrine of theirs.
If I want to know what they teach, I have to go to their written words which are in the CCC,,,
Same for calvinism. Different calvinists believe different meanings of words...what is one like myself to do?
I have to rely on what Calvin or Knox or those persons taught since this is where calvinism comes from.

The good news is that many of us (you and I) don't get what we deserve.
The idea that God looks into the future (your concept IMO) and sees 5 of 100 people saved ... or ... God chooses 5 out of 100 people to be saved ... the news is the same, 5 of 100 people were saved.

Not the same Fastfredy.

Again, you have a different definition of Free Will than those that are reformed. I gave you the definition of Johnathan Edwards who was reformed.
R.C. Sproul was reformed ... He said free will is: we always choose according to our inclinations, and we always choose according to our strongest inclination at a given moment. Yes, I agree that God convinced (if you want to use the word "forced" I can live with that I suppose) us to do what He wanted. We do it willingly due to outside forces.

If you do anything because of an outside force...it is not free will.
And yes, RC Sproul made a lot sound good that really isn't.
Study John Calvin's Institutes or the Westminster Confession of Faith and find out for yourself.

Agreed with one exception. The choice we make will be out of our will when we define "free will" as "we always choice what we desire most at the time".
If I apply your definition of Libertarian Free Will then I agree with the statement entirely.

Replied to the above.

The crux of our difference is what definition of Free Will to use. Again, reformed doctrine obviously does not apply the Libertarian Free Will definition to their doctrine; yet, you insist on applying your definition when describing reformed doctrine. We (reformed) get to define the words we use to explain our doctrine. When you describe arminian doctrine I am sure you don't use reforms definition of "free will" and you should expect Reformed doctrine to use yours.

I don't know if I'm Arminium. I never studied him...I like to study the bible, the written word of God.
And I insist on using my definition of compatible free will because that's what the calvinist definition is.
It's kind of like speaking to different Catholics and they all tell you a different concept of a doctrine of theirs.
If I want to know what they teach, I have to go to their written words which are in the CCC,,,
Same for calvinism. Different calvinists believe different meanings of words...what is one like myself to do?
I have to rely on what Calvin or Knox or those persons taught since this is where calvinism comes from.

The good news is that many of us (you and I) don't get what we deserve.
The idea that God looks into the future (your concept IMO) and sees 5 of 100 people saved ... or ... God chooses 5 out of 100 people to be saved ... the news is the same, 5 of 100 people were saved.

Not the same Fastfredy.
What about the other 95?
How is it grace if only 5 are saved and God "passes over" (another new term) the other 95?
It is only grace if God extends His grace to all who may want it.
Otherwise it's a dictatorship.

And I don't believe God "looks into the future".
God is all -knowing. He sees everything all at once.
He's outside of time.

Agreed. I was just trying to cover all of the Arminian doctrines as best I could.

Thanks for the discussion.
Just about given up one changing you into a REFORMED CONVERT .... (*winks*, just fun teasing in loving way)

Oh my.
And I thought I would change YOU out of calvinism!!


Yes. Nice conversation.
It's good that we understand each other, even though we don't agree.

P.S.
This post is messed up and I don't know why.
Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Quantrill]

for_his_glory or anyone else

Consider this:

Do you see Gods will as subject to outside forces? If not, what do you call His will?

Does God have free will just as you say man has free will?

If there is a difference, what is that difference?

Here is another line of thought:

Will we have what you call free will in Heaven?

If our will in Heaven is always the same as God's will, how is that free will?

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

You say 'only God is free from outside influence'. Which means only God has 'free will'.

Hi Quantrill,
I'm willing to continue with this conversation.
I think it's important to understand our nature.

First, let's find out what the will is:

Will [N]
The created image of God carries with it awesome responsibility and glory. It includes the ability to make meaningful moral choices ( Gen 1:26-27 ; 2:16-17 ). By grace, the freedom to use a created will as a moral agent is one of the key biblical distinctions between humans and the rest of the created order. The sovereignty of God is deepened in a radically personal way when creation is climaxed by persons who possess wills that can choose to either obey or disobey, to love or not to love. True sovereignty is neither arbitrary nor coercive; it allows other wills.

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/will/


Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will


Man has:
EMOTIONS
MIND
WILL


We think with our mind, we feel with emotions and we move on something we desire with our will.

So with your emotions you become bored.
Your mind tells you that you should do something about this and you get the idea to watch a movie.
Your will makes you go to the TV and put a movie on.

But could you have decided NOT to watch a movie?
The ability for you to either watch it or not watch it, without someone FORCING you to watch is what we know as free will.

We have a will, as you've stated,,,and we believe it is free.

Calvinists, OTOH, do not have a free will because it is GOD that decides every move they make.
They believe God has predestined everything, so He also predestined every one of their choices.

You then say man does have outside influences but still has 'free will'. So what is different in 'God's will' and 'mans will'. As you have described them the same.

Right. Only God has NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCE. Who could possibly influence God?
God certainly has free will.

Man has free will too.
You could have chosen whether or not to watch that movie.
Your WILL to watch it was free and the outside influence was boredom.
But you still could have decided NOT to watch it.

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

We 'are' forced to make a choice. What makes you think you do not have to make a choice?

You're right.
We're forced to make choices every day.
The question is: Are they freely made? or not?

As I said earlier, the man of the world, of satan, doesn't want to make a choice. He doesn't want God. And, he doesn't want to go to hell. But, not choosing, is choosing. In other words, 'gun to the head'.

The man of the world, of satan doesn't want to make a choice, you stated.
The man of the world HAS made a choice....
he has chosen to serve satan instead of God.

I am not interested in defending Calvinism, but I would ask, if God is not the One Who decides who will be saved...

God decides who will be saved based on whether or not we conform to His conditions.
But WE decide if we want to be saved...in which case we must adhere to God's conditions.

Calvinists believe that God decides who will go to heaven and who will go to hell....
based on no reason at all. And poor man has to be eternally damned because God did not pick him ..... through no fault of his own.
This is not what the N.T. teaches.

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory or anyone else

Consider this:

Do you see Gods will as subject to outside forces? If not, what do you call His will?

Does God have free will just as you say man has free will?

If there is a difference, what is that difference?

Here is another line of thought:

Will we have what you call free will in Heaven?

If our will in Heaven is always the same as God's will, how is that free will?

Quantrill

How could God's will be subject to outside forces. God is the supreme ruler over His creation and it's His will be done on earth as it s in heaven. We are to follow His will for we are risen with Christ seeking those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.

Free will will no longer exist in the New Jerusalem for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[for_his_glory]

Good insights.
But what did the sentences concerning priestly garments have to do with anything?

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

That verse in how he was dressed is representative of the Pharisees in the temple whom Jesus chastises and condemns as we read in Matthew 23. Now they find them self rejected of God, but the poor man being humble found favor in the Lord as he was taken to be with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Good insights.
But what did the sentences concerning priestly garments have to do with anything?

Sorry didn't see this post but answered it in post #132

 

[for_his_glory]

So satan trumped God.

Quantrill

You need to go back and read Job 1:6-12; Isaiah 14:12 and John 10:10. Satan cannot do anything that God does not allow him to do. Our faith is always being tested as no one can trump the hand of God.

 

[Quantrill]

Hi Quantrill,
I'm willing to continue with this conversation.
I think it's important to understand our nature.

First, let's find out what the will is:

Will [N]
The created image of God carries with it awesome responsibility and glory. It includes the ability to make meaningful moral choices ( Gen 1:26-27 ; 2:16-17 ). By grace, the freedom to use a created will as a moral agent is one of the key biblical distinctions between humans and the rest of the created order. The sovereignty of God is deepened in a radically personal way when creation is climaxed by persons who possess wills that can choose to either obey or disobey, to love or not to love. True sovereignty is neither arbitrary nor coercive; it allows other wills.

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/will/


Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will


Man has:
EMOTIONS
MIND
WILL


We think with our mind, we feel with emotions and we move on something we desire with our will.

So with your emotions you become bored.
Your mind tells you that you should do something about this and you get the idea to watch a movie.
Your will makes you go to the TV and put a movie on.

But could you have decided NOT to watch a movie?
The ability for you to either watch it or not watch it, without someone FORCING you to watch is what we know as free will.

We have a will, as you've stated,,,and we believe it is free.

Calvinists, OTOH, do not have a free will because it is GOD that decides every move they make.
They believe God has predestined everything, so He also predestined every one of their choices.


Right. Only God has NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCE. Who could possibly influence God?
God certainly has free will.

Man has free will too.
You could have chosen whether or not to watch that movie.
Your WILL to watch it was free and the outside influence was boredom.
But you still could have decided NOT to watch it.

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.



You're right.
We're forced to make choices every day.
The question is: Are they freely made? or not?


The man of the world, of satan doesn't want to make a choice, you stated.
The man of the world HAS made a choice....
he has chosen to serve satan instead of God.

God decides who will be saved based on whether or not we conform to His conditions.
But WE decide if we want to be saved...in which case we must adhere to God's conditions.

Calvinists believe that God decides who will go to heaven and who will go to hell....
based on no reason at all. And poor man has to be eternally damned because God did not pick him ..... through no fault of his own.
This is not what the N.T. teaches.

In the first half of your post, all that you want to define as 'free will' can be said of the 'will'. Man has a will, and man can exercise that will.

You can believe your will is free all you want, but it's not. When your were saved, was your will free? (John 1:13)

Again, I am not defending or arguing Calvinism.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

How could God's will be subject to outside forces. God is the supreme ruler over His creation and it's His will be done on earth as it s in heaven. We are to follow His will for we are risen with Christ seeking those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.

Free will will no longer exist in the New Jerusalem for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So, you agree God's will is not subject to outside forces. So what do you call God's will...as you didn't answer? Is it 'free will'?

So, in Heaven, we no longer have 'free will'? Do we have a will? Are we just robots in Heaven? If God wanted robots, couldn't He have just started out with Adam and Eve that way. Chunk the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and make us always willing with God.

Death and victory have nothing to do with what we are discussing.

What do you call Gods will? Is it free or not? What makes it free? Why do you say man has 'free will'?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You need to go back and read Job 1:6-12; Isaiah 14:12 and John 10:10. Satan cannot do anything that God does not allow him to do. Our faith is always being tested as no one can trump the hand of God.

So, it was God's plan that man fall as satan cannot do anything that God does not allow. And why would God allow it if it wasn't part of His plan?

satan either trumped God in the Garden, or he simply fell into the plan of God.

So, which is it? Did God plan the fall or not?

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

So, it was God's plan that man fall as satan cannot do anything that God does not allow. And why would God allow it if it wasn't part of His plan?

satan either trumped God in the Garden, or he simply fell into the plan of God.

So, which is it? Did God plan the fall or not?

Quantrill

God did not plan the fall.

 

[GodsGrace]

In the first half of your post, all that you want to define as 'free will' can be said of the 'will'. Man has a will, and man can exercise that will.

You can believe your will is free all you want, but it's not. When your were saved, was your will free? (John 1:13)

Again, I am not defending or arguing Calvinism.

Quantrill

Well Quanrill,
You sure do sound like a calvinist.
I believe I have free will as is taught in the bible.
Calvinists do NOT believe we have free will.
When I was saved I used my free will to accept God's salvation.
Calvinists do NOT believe they had anything to do with their salvation.

Take your pick.

 

[Quantrill]

God did not plan the fall.

Then satan trumped God.

Quantrill