Message to GOD"S elect

[mondar]

I was Not speaking of baptismal regeneration. I will quote The Reformation Study Bible, pg 1664. of which R.C. Sproul was the General Editor.
"An infant’s faith may not come until years after God has worked by His Holy Spirit to regenerate him or her. Two Biblical examples of infants who were born again are seen in Psalm 22:9-10 and Luke 1:15."

What am I misunderstanding in this statement? I understand this as saying, that the infant from birth was already saved (regenerated) they just might not know it for years.

Hmm, concerning RC, maybe I will have to research this a little more. It could be that RC allows for the regeneration of John the Baptist before birth. I doubt he is taking this to be a general rule, but may mention it as a possible exception. The problem is that I am not sure what he is teaching.

As a General rule, Presbyterians do not teach any sort of regeneration before faith (time wise), but most PCA and OPC Presbyterians teach the same thing as Regular Baptists (I am a Regular Baptist--some use the term "Reformed Baptist"). We both teach that regeneration precedes faith logically in that regeneration is the cause of faith (1 John 5:1), and personal righteousness (1 John 2:29). Also, that justification is on the basis of the gift of faith (Phil 1:29). However, RC might recognize that God can make exceptions, such as John the Baptist.

The problem is that I do not have context and can only speculate on what RC is saying. If he is saying that the normal practice of regeneration precedes faith in time, then he is in error.

I would feel the same. No where have a stated any such thing about John Gill. HYPER- Calvinism is not pure Calvinism. I said this before! When I discuss Spurgeon it is not to speak of what someone else Does believe. Just what I understand what Spurgeon believed.

I am loosing the context of your statement here. Nevertheless, I read the sermon in which Spurgeon is accused of denying Calvinist doctrine, and he actually affirmed it.

This is what I said about, Limited Atonement.
"Limited Atonement, as I understand it, the limited atonement that Calvin taught, says this. Christ died for All men and His blood is sufficient for the saving of all men. But it does not take effect for All men, because there are men who reject salvation. If it was effective for all men, then all men would be saved.

Spurgeon, would say it was not effective because they "would not" believe not because they could not. (I applied this statement from his statement on faith, not limited atonement.)

So what am I misunderstanding about what Calvin taught?

Some of what you are saying is historically wrong. Calvin did not use terminology "Limited Atonement." Had he been born 75 years later, he would have been using that terminology though.

The terminology of "Limited Atonement" did not come until the 1600s after the "Remonstrance." In the Remonstrance (Original Arminians) they postulated a different theory of atonement. They denied the penal substitutionary atonement and affirmed what is called a General Theory of Atonement. They said the cross work of Christ did not forgive the individual sins of men, but rather it satisfied the general sense of God's justice. That is what is meant by the term "Unlimited Atonement" historically. It is a denial of the ability of Christs shed blood to save to the uttermost and completely. In satisfying the justice of God for all men, it brought about a situation in which God could offer salvation to all men, and all men became savable. This of course is not penal or substitutionary. Then the cross of Christ saves no one, but makes all men savable.

So then, historically, Calvin taught the penal substitutionary atonement, but never use the terms "limited atonement." After the Remonstrants taught General Atonement, and used the term "Unlimited Atonement," the Dutch Reformed conference of Dort, responded to the concept of a General Atonement which does not save, and developed the terminology "Limited Atonement" to say men are actually and really saved to the uttermost by the shed blood of Christ. So then, historically, the term "limited atonement" speaks of an actual salvation to the uttermost (Penal and substitutionary), as opposed to a hypothetical possibility of atonement for all men everywhere (General Atonement)

You said...."Limited Atonement, as I understand it, the limited atonement that Calvin taught, says this. Christ died for All men and His blood is sufficient for the saving of all men.....
Unfortunately, I have not read much of Calvin. I believe I remember Calvin using the term "all men" in a way similar to the Bible. Calvin was not referring to all men without exception, but all men of all kinds. All men then equals men of every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Concerning Spurgeon and the phrase "could not believe".... That is a little different. Spurgeon and Calvin and myself probably see the biblical teaching in the same way. This may sound like double talk, but if you think about it, it is not. Any man has the ability to choose to believe. On the other hand, no man will chose to believe because all men are rebels and sinners by nature. So then, while any man has the ability to believe, we universally reject Christ by nature. We are all children of wrath by nature (See Eph 2:3) and dead in our sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1).

I need to say more, but I have to go... later.

 

[Eventide]

I wonder if Spurgeon also saw himself as one of the limited, unconditional elect, in the first Adam...?

If so, then he was sadly mistaken.. as are so many today.

E: Spurgeon is sometimes described as a moderate Calvinist, and Christian readers of his sermons don't usually attribute hyper-Calvinistic views to him.

Who is talking about hyper Calvinism... ?

Are you suggesting that limited atonement, and unconditional election are hyper-Calvinist views?

 

[George Muller]

No when one "surrenders" to Gods Will , they are being obedient to the will of Another, greater, stronger, wiser etc...

Yes.

When they choose not to surrender then they are disobedient.

Did all obey God's Voice and keep His Charge, His commandments and laws? No.

Why, because they have a free will and a choice.

Self will, on the other hand is always choosing what the desires of the self nature are.

It is God working in us, both to will and do His good pleasure.

We have a free will to choose.

We can choose to be self willed or we can choose the will of God.


JLB

So then you admit that obedience is submission to Gods Will? If it is submission then it is not mans "free-will" it is Gods will that is obeyed. Again you seem to claim that because one can "choose'' to disobey that some how makes "free-will" a biblical position as it relates to obedience, it is not, never has been. All are guilty all have sinned and fallen short, not "some" -all , none doeth good, no not one, they all have gone out of the way. So again you attempt to make a unbiblical point to defend a unbiblical term.

When one "surrenders" to Gods Will as to obey HIS WILL, that is not "free-will". That's Gods Will and all obedience is found not in "free-will" but in that ones crucifies their own will with Christ.

 

[mondar]

Calvinists reject such a false gospel as "salvation by grace through faith." We require the word "alone." Justification is by faith "ALONE."

I cannot stand on the 'faith alone statement'. God by His grace, the Father draws, the Holy Spirit convicts. Without this happening, one cannot put their faith (trust) in the Gospel message and repent. Salvation is only attainable because of God's grace to start with.

It is true that the Father draws and the Holy Spirit convicts, but the NT statements on justification do not mention any other requirement then faith. Faith alone is the only requirement for justification. Faith alone is the only gospel. You are muddying the waters by confusing several doctrines.

I talked about decree alot, because a discussion of foreknowledge and decree are inseparable. In the non-reformed doctrine of foreknowledge, it is usually something were God just looks into a crystal ball and sees what will happen, but does not cause righteousness, and does not withdraw his hand restraining sin. There is no decree part.

I do not see foreknowledge as a looking into the future or a crystal ball type thing. God just knows who will come to Him.

Thats exactly what I was talking about with the "crystal ball type thing." Foreknowledge is tied to God's elective decree. Romans 8 is clear.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All those that God foreknew, he conformed to the image of his Son, and he called, and he justified, and glorified. The chain in those verses is unbreakable. There was no one that God foreknew that he did not conform to Christ. No one that he foreknew was not called or justified or glorified. The verses say nothing about looking into the future to see what we were going to do, God foreknew because his intent was to conform us to the image of Christ, call us to Christ, justify and glorify. The verses never speak of our actions, only God is active in those verses. Foreknowledge is an action by God, not a passive recognition of our actions. The verbs are all aorist active, there is not one passive verb.

Of course there are non-reformed people who see the relationship between decree and foreknowledge. Such are the open theists. They believe that Gods foreknowledge is not absolute. They think God does not foreknow the free will decisions of man. That seems very consistent to me, even if it is wrong. Are you an open theist (just asking)?

No I haven't determined as of yet, anyway, that God doesn't foreknow the decisions of man. I think He does.
But I do not believe that all decisions that men make are decreed by God.
God states very clearly in Jeremiah that He did not command the Israelites to sacrifice their children, He says very clearly that it never entered His mind to tell them to do such a thing.
God did not decree in this instance.

Above you fail to see the difference between Gods commands and his decrees. You confuse issues, you muddy waters, and continue to give shallow answers. Of course God would never command sin, but he decrees sin.
Did you even read the 1689? Did you read my comments on Job, Joseph, and Christ?

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=94634]josefnospam[/MENTION] looks like the Holy Spirit is really working in you. Blessings brother.

 

[George Muller]

Those who choose to boast in themselves and tell you how good they are not Boasting in a Soverign and Mighty God. But God will have mercy on whom he will. Do as you will and we will all wait until God returns. He knows who are his............I trust only him and hope you do also.
James, writting under the insperation of the holy ghost said in James 4:16 "But now ye rejoice in your boasting: ALL such rejoicing is evil"

Believe as you will, but if your not boasting of and giving honor to God who are you boasting in?

You again get right to the heart of the matter, what man has anything that was not first given to him through the grace of God? Those who seek to boast in "free-will" always have another group that they can boast against. By their "free-will" they obey?:toofunny

If any obeys it is based on Gods "will" working in them (the Spirit of God), to "WILL" and to act according TO GODS GOOD PLEASURE. any who leave any room for boasting are boasting in their flesh, nothing more. I am what I am by the Grace of God and because it His Grace, I can only boast in Him.

 

[George Muller]

[MENTION=94634]josefnospam[/MENTION] looks like the Holy Spirit is really working in you. Blessings brother.

Amen, Dave I am thankful for the sincere, I fear too much time on these forums can even corrupt the sincere of heart? So many seek only to defend a "term" or creed of their religious background. Few will find the "narrow" way, where we become nothing at His Cross and He is exalted above all things.

 

[Guest]

I fear too much time on these forums can even corrupt the sincere of heart?

It's good to take a step back and read through all the pages and meditate on what's been said. :amen

 

[Eventide]

If any obeys it is based on Gods "will" working in them (the Spirit of God), to "WILL" and to act according TO GODS GOOD PLEASURE. any who leave any room for boasting are boasting in their flesh, nothing more. I am what I am by the Grace of God and because it His Grace, I can only boast in Him.

And yet who are the ones here in this thread who believe that the atonement of Christ was LIMITED to them and the UNCONDITIONAL ELECT ?

The irony here is almost laughable.. although imo it's more likened to being hypocritical. Talking about others boasting while holding on to these man made doctrines.

 

[JLB]

So then you admit that obedience is submission to Gods Will?

Choosing to obey God's will, is submitting to God.

When one "surrenders" to Gods Will as to obey HIS WILL, that is not "free-will".

That is your opinion. Free will is an expression that means a person has a choice.

Here is a biblical example -

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-25

the fruit of the Spirit is self-control...

Does that mean we are "self willed"? No

Being crucified with Christ does not mean we lose our ability to choose. We still have to choose to walk in the Spirit, that is to say, live with the new nature reigning in dominion over the desires of the flesh nature.

That takes some effort. That involves a choice.

One of the choices is fasting, denying the flesh its ability to be empowered.

To walk in accordance with the direction of the Spirit so He can lead us.

To keep ones inner man "built up", so that you can be led.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I need to say more, but I have to go... later.

I can tell this is going nowhere fast. But I have a question for you...

When you witness, the Gospel Message of Jesus and the Cross, for their salvation. What do you tell them?

 

[mondar]

I need to say more, but I have to go... later.

I can tell this is going nowhere fast. But I have a question for you...

When you witness, the Gospel Message of Jesus and the Cross, for their salvation. What do you tell them?

All men have sinned because they are sinners, and only faith in the shed blood of Christ can save them. What else would you expect?

 

[Guest]

I need to say more, but I have to go... later.

When you witness, the Gospel Message of Jesus and the Cross, for their salvation. What do you tell them?

All men have sinned because they are sinners, and only faith in the shed blood of Christ can save them. What else would you expect?

Non believers hate being called sinners. I would take a different approach like..Jesus died because he loves you and wants you to have eternal life. Because the reality is that their sin doesn't keep them from Christ, their unbelief does.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus died because he loves you and wants you to have eternal life. Because the reality is that their sin doesn't keep them from Christ, their unbelief does.

Yup, me too. But you see that could be a problem. If you don't believe that Jesus died for their sins, for sure (He may have or maybe not) you need to be very careful about how you told gave them the Gospel, you might be lying to them.

Frankly, if you give the John 3:16, you'd be giving the scripture but you couldn't tell them, you actually believed the simple words, God so loved the world and whosoever belief in Him.
Either in this thread or one similar I was told that God does not love the world (because the world hates Him). and the whosoever are only certain randomly picked ones. You might even think you are saved and really not be.
I can prove that belief is there, by Calvin's statement in his Commentary on Hebrews 6. He kinda goes around the verse and end the end decided that if God wanted to, He could enlighten the reprobate some, even give Him a little of the HS. (Something like that).
Here's the link. It's pretty long, the paragraph starts with these words "But the problem arises....and ends at [98]
I don't buy his explanation. Now he saying God would just fool someone into thinking they were chosen? Spurgeon, admits those people are believers.
http://calvin.biblecommenter.com/hebrews/6.htm

Those guys of the Reformation had a tough job. Everybody was coming out of the RCC with a doctrine of works. They had a fight on their hands.

 

[Deborah13]

I need to say more, but I have to go... later.

I can tell this is going nowhere fast. But I have a question for you...

When you witness, the Gospel Message of Jesus and the Cross, for their salvation. What do you tell them?

All men have sinned because they are sinners, and only faith in the shed blood of Christ can save them. What else would you expect?

Just wondered. The Baptist lady gave me mostly scripture. Boy I wonder what she would have said if I had asked her a lot of questions. Like, "Does God really love the World, everybody?"

 

[n2thelight]

But we embrace this glorious wonderfull fact that he died for his choosen people and we can rest in that forever. HE alone gives life.

He died for all thaty would accept Him,!!!!!

 

[Guest]

you need to be very careful about how you told gave them the Gospel, you might be lying to them.

lying?

 

[Eventide]

What I think she means is this...

Let's say that I believe in limited atonement, and that there are only the unconditional elect who shall be saved from the 1st Adam...

Now if I preached to a large crowd and said that "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures"...

I could be lying...

What if there are some within earshot who are not the limited and unconditional elect ?

That message would not be true for them, it would be a lie actually.

That's what I think shes means.. and I could be completely wrong here lol...

 

[josefnospam]

to n2thelight...............In light of scriptures who will accept him? Who will seek him? Who has enough rightousness to do so. Who is good enough to choose him?
Here are a few scriptures to consider carefully

Romans 3:10 There is None rightous, no NOT ONE
Romans 3:11 There is None that understand, there is NONE that seeketh after God
Romans 3:12 ........."there is NONE that do good

These are a quote from Pslm.14 1 thru 4
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand and seek God.
They are all gone aside. They are all together become filthy, there is NONE that doeth good NO not one.
This is repeated in the 2nd and 3rd verses of plsm 53

When you read scriptures like these where do you see someone who will do good or ask God to come into thier hearts? None do good NO NOT ONE. None seek God NO NOT ONE................
You believe as you will. I can't change your heart or save you or help you. No one can except Jesus Christ and him cruified for his blood bought children. He knows his sheep and they will follow him. I do so hope and wish you the best in this world.

The fact that God has choosen a people for himself and adopted them before he created the world is so amazing and wonderfull. He did this so that we would give him all the Glory and honor now in this world and forever. What a great God we worship.

Once a person has been called out of darkness, into his marvelous light and given a new heart and the spirit to believe only him, they become a new creature. Then can we rest in him. I hope he has called you also.............................We love him because he 1st loved us. 1 John 4:19

 

[Eventide]

Thank God that He came to seek and to save the lost...

Thank God that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

Thank God that He died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world..

Thank God that He is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe.

AMEN to these great scriptural truths from the word of God...