Message to GOD"S elect

[Deborah13]

Does a person make a choice to fall from grace?

Galatians 5:3-5
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Of course Adam fell from the grace of God, and free-will is the lie of satan.

Again George.

Show the scripture!

This should be good entertainment... ;)

 

[George Muller]

Of course Adam fell from the grace of God, and free-will is the lie of satan.

Again George.

Show the scripture!

Show the scripture that validates what you say.

Give the chapter and verse that states Adam fell from grace.

You don't have to make me see anything, just show the scripture with the phrase "fell from grace".

I would like to learn from the bible what it means and see what the scripture teaches about a person that has fell from grace into free will.

Show me any person that the bible says that they "fell from grace".

I see that you use that phrase, but I am asking you to show me the scripture that speaks of a person who has "fallen from grace".

Is it when a person sins, that they fall from grace?

Is it when a Pastor or leader declares that a person has fallen from grace?

Is there any hope for a person who has fallen from grace to be restored back to grace?

Does a person make a choice to fall from grace?

Who decides that a person has fallen from grace?



JLB

It is when a person turns from grace to the law of Moses that they fall from grace;
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Now Adam was in a perfect condition of Gods grace, until he ate from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" For though the law is the knowledge of sin- Just as the Old testament showed us types, The Lamb was Christ etc... This can be seen to those who are honest and not blinded by the law.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

 

[George Muller]

I think this has gone far enough. Let's get back on topic and keep things civil.

Yes sir, I will attempt to bring down the personal statements that sometimes are sparked in these debates.

Titus 3:9-11 documents...

[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Is that what the Holy Spirit said through Paul??? 'A man that is an heretick after [[the first and second]] admonition reject;'???

--Elijah

Who is it that strives about the law? Not those who teach grace, but those who attempt to teach the law. What does the term "heretick" mean?
Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

another <heteros> All heresy is a turning from grace back to the law.

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 

[JLB]

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam turned back to the law? The Law of Moses wasn't in existence.

Just how did Adam turn back to a law that wasn't in existence?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" For though the law is the knowledge of sin-

Are you saying that the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" can be compared to the "Law of Moses"? Thou Shall, Thou Shall Not?

 

[Elijah674]

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam turned back to the law? The Law of Moses wasn't in existence.

Just how did Adam turn back to a law that wasn't in existence?


JLB

Yes, just how did Adam + Eve turn BACK to the Law if the Eternal Covenant (Heb. 13:20) was not in place?
Someone is all wet 'teaching' the OSAS doctrine of 'PROMISEING life' while living in [[OPEN SIN.]]! 2 Peter 2:19 (Vomit of verse 22)

--Elijah

 

[George Muller]

the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" For though the law is the knowledge of sin-

Are you saying that the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" can be compared to the "Law of Moses"? Thou Shall, Thou Shall Not?

Yes Deb, not alone on this one but many great bible teachers have seen this truth.

 

[George Muller]

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam turned back to the law? The Law of Moses wasn't in existence.

Just how did Adam turn back to a law that wasn't in existence?


JLB

Well it is the same biblical principle, that one who is justified freely by grace, goes back into self-righteousness by law. They are "falling from grace" and trying to be there own god, through the knowledge of good and evil.
I know this is not as hard to understand as you are trying to make it.

 

[George Muller]

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam turned back to the law? The Law of Moses wasn't in existence.

Just how did Adam turn back to a law that wasn't in existence?


JLB

Yes, just how did Adam + Eve turn BACK to the Law if the Eternal Covenant (Heb. 13:20) was not in place?
Someone is all wet 'teaching' the OSAS doctrine of 'PROMISEING life' while living in [[OPEN SIN.]]! 2 Peter 2:19 (Vomit of verse 22)

--Elijah

Aint you the same guys who try to claim Abraham was under the law of Moses? I am teaching a biblical type as an example of "falling from grace" This is an accepted type among many respected bible teachers, not all of them are radically grace teachers, as I am. You can accept this, or not? It is a clear type and warning to all who would turn from grace back to the tree of self-righteousness.

 

[JLB]

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam turned back to the law? The Law of Moses wasn't in existence.

Just how did Adam turn back to a law that wasn't in existence?


JLB

Well it is the same biblical principle, that one who is justified freely by grace, goes back into self-righteousness by law. They are "falling from grace" and trying to be there own god, through the knowledge of good and evil.
I know this is not as hard to understand as you are trying to make it.

What you are saying is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach.

There was one Law for Adam.

Do not eat of the tree...

Adam turned away from what God said.

Adam chose to disobey what God said.

Adam turned away from the only Law that was given.

Adam did not "turn back to the law", Adam turned away from the commandment of God.

If Adam was God's elect, according to your doctrine, did he become un-elected?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now Adam was in a perfect condition of Gods grace, until he ate from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" For though the law is the knowledge of sin- Just as the Old testament showed us types, The Lamb was Christ etc... This can be seen to those who are honest and not blinded by the law. 2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam was disobedient and chose to do what was right in his own eyes, just as those today who are under grace are warned -

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


we are not under law but under grace?

If a person under grace chooses to be a slave of sin, then it will lead to death.

Choosing to be a slave to the sin of sorcery is not turning back to the law of Moses.

Choosing to be a slave to the sin of adultery is not turning back to the law of Moses, it is turning away from the commandment of God.

Choosing to be a slave of the sin of lying, is not turning back to the law of Moses, it is turning away from the commandment of God.


If a person who is under grace, presents themselves as a slave to sin, it will lead to death.


29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace. Hebrews 10:29


JLB

 

[farouk]

Galatians 5:3-5
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

@Deborah13 :

Yes, when someone feels compelled or tries to compel others to adopt Old Testament circumcision, this is really like putting themselves under the law, whereas as Paul says the New Testament believer is under grace. (This is also a reason why I personally try to distinguish between the dispensations, between the church and Israel.)

Interestingly, Paul circumcised Timothy, not because there was an obligation to do so, but because it would help Timothy to minister to Jews who might not otherwise listen to him. (I guess today it might even be like a young believer getting a faith based tattoo or whatever, not because it's necessary, but so that other young people who are tattooed would listen to his or her tesimony more.) I think there needs to be made a distinction between circumcision by compulsion (and Paul withstood Peter to his face when legalists crept in among the early church trying to compel circumcision), and on the other hand doing it as a voluntary thing, not because it has any value in itself, but as a way of identifying with the community that one is trying to reach for Christ.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, when someone feels compelled or tries to compel others to adopt Old Testament circumcision, this is really like putting themselves under the law, whereas as Paul says the New Testament believer is under grace.

Yep, that is the whole theme. "this is really like putting themselves under the law, whereas as Paul says the New Testament believer is under grace."

It's not really about physical circumcision, is it? It's about law v grace.

Abraham was under grace, justified by faith, as were Isaac, and Jacob.

Interesting that we started out in grace and faith and back to grace faith? But no, it was always about grace and faith.

 

[farouk]

Yes, when someone feels compelled or tries to compel others to adopt Old Testament circumcision, this is really like putting themselves under the law, whereas as Paul says the New Testament believer is under grace.

Yep, that is the whole theme. "this is really like putting themselves under the law, whereas as Paul says the New Testament believer is under grace."

It's not really about physical circumcision, is it? It's about law v grace.

Abraham was under grace, justified by faith, as were Isaac, and Jacob.

Interesting that we started out in grace and faith and back to grace faith? But no, it was always about grace and faith.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

It's interesting, too, that Abraham was justified by faith (as are New Testament believers also); the law and circumcision came afterwards (which is not about New Testament believers under grace).

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

It's interesting, too, that Abraham was justified by faith (as are New Testament believers also); the law and circumcision came afterwards (which is not about New Testament believers under grace).

Exactly, justified by faith.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes "free-will" is always disobedient. And those who choose to turn back into the law have fallen from grace, just as Adam fell.

Adam turned back to the law? The Law of Moses wasn't in existence.

Just how did Adam turn back to a law that wasn't in existence?


JLB

Yes, just how did Adam + Eve turn BACK to the Law if the Eternal Covenant (Heb. 13:20) was not in place?
Someone is all wet 'teaching' the OSAS doctrine of 'PROMISEING life' while living in [[OPEN SIN.]]! 2 Peter 2:19 (Vomit of verse 22)

--Elijah

Aint you the same guys who try to claim Abraham was under the law of Moses? I am teaching a biblical type as an example of "falling from grace" This is an accepted type among many respected bible teachers, not all of them are radically grace teachers, as I am. You can accept this, or not? It is a clear type and warning to all who would turn from grace back to the tree of self-righteousness.

No, NO law of Moses is seen at this Gen. 26 time! Isaas was told why Abe was called in the first place!
[5] [[[Because]]] that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is what God required of Abe! But he LOVINGLY obeyed! (not as you teach!)

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

No, NO law of Moses is seen at this Gen. 26 time! Isaas was told why Abe was called in the first place!
[5] [[[Because]]] that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is what God required of Abe! But he LOVINGLY obeyed! (not as you teach!)

Yes, by faith.

 

[farouk]

No, NO law of Moses is seen at this Gen. 26 time! Isaas was told why Abe was called in the first place!
[5] [[[Because]]] that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is what God required of Abe! But he LOVINGLY obeyed! (not as you teach!)

Yes, by faith.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Yes, it's 'the obedience of faith', right?

Blessings.