Miracles, do you believe?

[kwag_myers]

If you were to post on an Islamic or Atheistic forum I could also appeal to the "evidence" that most people on those forums would think YOU were heretical or nuts or whatever. This would not be evidence - it is only popular opinion within a specific belief system's environment.

Besides - we could probably find almost as many opinions from Christians on this forum that miracles don't happen anymore and that you are not a prophet cause that doesn't go on anymore etc. So according to your rule of thumb, many believers are also guilty of unbelief and, in keeping with your insinuation, possibly DEMON-POSSESSED also?

So then common sense, that is the unreflective opinion of ordinary people (Webster's definition), is only correct when you are in the company of like minded people. Did I get that right?

Ah yes, the "fake gold dust" manifestation that has swept the Charismatic movement. Samples of this stuff taken from "miracle meetings" has been analyzed many times and found to be "plastic glitter". It is disseminated very easily through the air and/or by touch. This is a very cheap parlor trick and any amateur magician would tell us so.

It's so much easier to attack others instead of facing the fact that God is moving in these days, and you're not part of it. That's why you are so consumed with what people do and not what God is doing. It's all lies to you, isn't it. What a sad existance. No hope, no faith in God. Always having to look out for your self because there is no gift of discernment in your life.

As for Chris Chandler, even a donkey can be used by God to speak His Word (Numbers 22:28). But you think that if he's wrong once, he's always wrong, is that it? That's not what Deuteronomy 18:22 says. It says that he's spoken in presumption. But then, you don't believe what the Bible says about miracles and prophecy, do you?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

So then common sense, that is the unreflective opinion of ordinary people (Webster's definition), is only correct when you are in the company of like minded people. Did I get that right?

But EVERYONE falls into this category, unless they are insane, or otherwise "mentally challenged". Our basic ability to reason is a common and necessary faculty. We ALL use it everyday or we wouldn't be able to discriminate between reality and non-reality, or identify and avoid falling prey to the most obvious scams.

But there ARE situations where intelligent and even normally cautious people may consciously or sub-consciously set aside their ability to reason and be fooled by what they would OTHERWISE never fall for (in their usual secular life), and that is if and when they are involved in something which they desperately WANT to believe is true. This occurs in a number of categories such as parapsychology or among religious groups which claim "signs and wonders".

Now I am NOT saying that it is impossible that there could be a true instance of clairvoyance, or poltergeist, or telepathy among the first category or a miracle among the 2nd, but I AM saying that, in the GREAT MAJORITY of cases, claimed supernatural events (whether regarded as occultic or religious) are proven to be hoaxes when they are able to be objectively investigated.

Your emphasis on "spiritual discernment" in these cases has nothing to do with whether or not a miracle has OCCURED. A miracle is an event which counteracts and defies the normal laws of nature or physics or anything which we would ordinarily regard as lying within the boundaries of "reality". Whether a miracle has occured or not is an OBJECTIVE REALITY which can be measured, analyzed, and proven one way or the other as to whether it really happened or not. That is, if the circumstances and hard evidence of the event and/or persons involved are available to be tested.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Ah yes, the "fake gold dust" manifestation that has swept the Charismatic movement. Samples of this stuff taken from "miracle meetings" has been analyzed many times and found to be "plastic glitter". It is disseminated very easily through the air and/or by touch. This is a very cheap parlor trick and any amateur magician would tell us so.

It's so much easier to attack others instead of facing the fact that God is moving in these days, and you're not part of it

Pointing out that the "gold dust miracle" is fake is "attacking people"? I believe I would actually be HELPING people if I led them to be a bit more cautious and discover that they were being deceived. Apparently, you don't care that people are being deceived?

That's why you are so consumed with what people do and not what God is doing. It's all lies to you, isn't it. What a sad existance. No hope, no faith in God. Always having to look out for your self because there is no gift of discernment in your life

I welcome this personal attack on my character and motives as it demonstrates you have no other way to respond.

As for Chris Chandler, even a donkey can be used by God to speak His Word (Numbers 22:28). But you think that if he's wrong once, he's always wrong, is that it? That's not what Deuteronomy 18:22 says. It says that he's spoken in presumption.

So now you believe he may have spoken in presumption? If true then how did we arrive at this conclusion? Hmmm...do you think maybe because I was a little skeptical and decided to read up on him? Are you afraid to test these things because you may find out a lot of it is false? Are you afraid that if you find out that too much is false, you may have to rethink your involvement? We need to value TRUTH above all else - no matter what that truth is.

But then, you don't believe what the Bible says about miracles and prophecy, do you?

You take a huge "leap" when you assume that just because miracles may have happened in the bible, YOU and your group and affiliated groups have the same thing they had. How do you figure this? Whether or not your church experiences the same miracles as in the Book of Acts is determined by WHETHER OR NOT YOUR CHURCH EXPERIENCES THE SAME MIRACLES AS IN THE BOOK OF ACTS.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Kwag_Myers,


Here's a simple question -

If I am so lacking in discernment, using the "flesh" and not the Spirit to evaluate things, then how is it that I know the "gold dust" manifestation, for example, is FAKE, while thousands of Charismatic -types, wielding the "discernment of the Spirit", have been FOOLED by it?

Unless you are going to argue that the plastic glitter that has appeared on people in these meetings is a true miracle of God - I rest my case.

 

[kwag_myers]

Kwag_Myers,


Here's a simple question -

If I am so lacking in discernment, using the "flesh" and not the Spirit to evaluate things, then how is it that I know the "gold dust" manifestation, for example, is FAKE, while thousands of Charismatic -types, wielding the "discernment of the Spirit", have been FOOLED by it?

Unless you are going to argue that the plastic glitter that has appeared on people in these meetings is a true miracle of God - I rest my case.

I'm not going to defend what other people do. I've heard reports where testing has proven the gold dust IS real. So what? I know one guy who saw gold dust and after the meeting, he got a latter and checked the AC vents (and found nothing). And I've seen it myself in our services. Again, so what? Your "simple question" proves my point; you cannot look at what people are doing. You must rely on the Holy Spirit to instruct you.

I don't care about gold dust, people's fillings turning into gold, feathers, etc. You are the one who brought this up. You asked me for my reasons for this poll and I told you. And now I regret it. Why? Because I wanted to see where my position puts me in relationship to other Christians and you've taken this opportunity to attack me again. How is it that everyone is always wrong and you are always right? You argue with nearly everyone who posts here, Free, DivineNames, Darrell, and it's always the same thing. They present the Word of God, and you argue against it, not ever providing scripture to back up your claims.

As for Chris Chandler, I am addressing what the Bible says concerning his credibility. Why is it that you must take what the Bible says and turn it into what I am saying. I'm simply telling you that there is a difference between someone who speaks presumptuously and a false prophet. I do not have anything of Chris Chandler's other prophecies that have been judged by prophets that I trust, so I'm not addressing anything else of his.

Let's talk about what the Bible says. Explain to me this verses: John 14:12.

Concerning false prophets, my thread on this subject has been posted for three days and no one has either corrected me, or added to my list of things to look for. So, I'm assuming that for the most part it's correct. Using this criteria, show me in my postings where I've presented a doctrine that does not meet these requirements.

You, on the other hand, present a doctrine that is not edifying or comforting at all. We must find the truth for ourselves, we cannot trust God to tell us. And does this promote Jesus as our Lord? No. Your doctrine denies His words that the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. You are tell us that we cannot rely on God to keep His promise of telling us what to do and say.

On the subject of CIRCULARITY, explain this verse, please: 1 Corinthians 14:32

My thread on Unbelief was not intended to entertain, but to inform. The fact that you gained nothing from it shows that you have an unteachable heart. We all have unbelief to some degree.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I'm not going to defend what other people do. I've heard reports where testing has proven the gold dust IS real. So what? I know one guy who saw gold dust and after the meeting, he got a latter and checked the AC vents (and found nothing). And I've seen it myself in our services. Again, so what? Your "simple question" proves my point; you cannot look at what people are doing. You must rely on the Holy Spirit to instruct you.

I don't care about gold dust, people's fillings turning into gold, feathers, etc.

It sounds to me like you don't really believe these sort of things either or you'd be challenging me on it? Remember, you are the one who claimed to be experiencing miracles daily, but everytime I call something into question SPECIFICALLY, you seem to "hedge" about it.

Do you regard the guy who went and got the ladder to check the air vent for possible evidence of fraud as an "unbeliever" or "fleshly"? I am only doing, in general, what he did specifically. I think it is only what any sensible person would/should do. Why you have a problem with this I don't know.

You are the one who brought this up. You asked me for my reasons for this poll and I told you. And now I regret it. Why? Because I wanted to see where my position puts me in relationship to other Christians and you've taken this opportunity to attack me again. How is it that everyone is always wrong and you are always right?

I don't always claim to be right, in fact, I freely admit there are many things I haven't even formed an opinion on yet because I am learning to question more and be open. It was when I was more of a fundamental Christian that I thought I was "always right". I'd give you "chapter and verse" and also assumed that my (and/or my group's) interpretation of that chapter and verse was right. And this is what I see, in general, among bible-thumpers of every denomination and persuasion - they believe they have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They are much more inflexible than the skeptic, because the skeptic, as a matter of course, doesn't necessarily believe he has all the answers. It's the people who think they know it all that irk me - that's why I like to challenge their claims when I find one I believe is disprovable or has no evidence in it's favor. I think we all need to RETHINK some things we may have been taught and take for granted.

You argue with nearly everyone who posts here, Free, DivineNames, Darrell, and it's always the same thing. They present the Word of God, and you argue against it, not ever providing scripture to back up your claims

Everyone you named disagree with EACH OTHER on some things. Debate/disagreement/argumentation is what discussion forums are all about. Do you think any forum would survive if everyone just agreed with each other? BOOORING...

Now you may think I'm patting myself on the back (I'm not) but people like me are GOOD for forums like these. I tend to get the "juices flowing". I'm spicing things up a little here and, to tell you the truth, I think this forum could use it. I'm not here to try and "entertain" first and foremost, but if we think that discussion forums that have NO entertainment value are gonna draw and sustain interest we're kidding ourselves.

As for Chris Chandler, I am addressing what the Bible says concerning his credibility. Why is it that you must take what the Bible says and turn it into what I am saying. I'm simply telling you that there is a difference between someone who speaks presumptuously and a false prophet. I do not have anything of Chris Chandler's other prophecies that have been judged by prophets that I trust, so I'm not addressing anything else of his

You brought this guy up like "Chris Chandler says THIS..." so I question why you think what Chris Chandler says is something we should all react to like the voice out of heaven at Jesus' baptism? He's just another preacher. He "prophesies" that we are going to have the greatest outpouring ever in the church. I told you, preacher's who believe in "outpourings" have ALWAYS and will always predict this. He gives no specifics that one can hold him to.

Let's talk about what the Bible says. Explain to me this verses: John 14:12.

Why you'd bring this one up is a little puzzling since it is a skeptic's "dream verse" if anything. Are YOU doing "mightier works than Jesus"? You need to do an awful lot of rationalizing to answer this one. But I will give you a straight answer since I'm hoping to get one from you -

Either that verse only applies to the (original) disciples, or it is a later interpolation, or the vast majority of believers today really AREN'T, (because they're not doing greater works than Jesus, or even equal) or it's simply not true to begin with.

The reason I give a number of possible explanations is because, like I said, I don't claim to know everything. But, in any case, this verse is a major problem for any reasonable person.

to be continued....

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Concerning false prophets, my thread on this subject has been posted for three days and no one has either corrected me, or added to my list of things to look for. So, I'm assuming that for the most part it's correct. Using this criteria, show me in my postings where I've presented a doctrine that does not meet these requirements

You keep appealing to "doctrine" as if that is what our dispute is about and it really isn't. Your essay on prophets was very nice but it again it's mainly doctrinal. Most of the people on this forum could qualify as prophets from your list of qualifications. But I don't think prophets are a "dime a dozen" do you? Elijah was a prophet. He called down fire from heaven. Give me something to work with.

You, on the other hand, present a doctrine that is not edifying or comforting at all. We must find the truth for ourselves, we cannot trust God to tell us. And does this promote Jesus as our Lord? No. Your doctrine denies His words that the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. You are tell us that we cannot rely on God to keep His promise of telling us what to do and say

You are afflicted with "tunnel vision" logic. You have to step out of that "subjective straitjacket" you're in. I don't know how else to explain this but I'll try again. What you're saying might carry weight IF EVERYONE WHO CLAIMS GOD IS TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO OR SAY WAS DOING AND SAYING THE SAME THING - but that is not the case. It may be the case within your particular fellowship, but that's just your group. Contemporary groups where everyone and his brother claimed to be prophets (like Vineyard, Toronto Fellowship, Kansas City Metro, etc) have split and split again because they couldn't agree. They do the same thing the earlier denominations did, and having "prophets" didn't help them all "see" the same thing.

You keep appealing to "unity" as some sort of proof of something. There is NO unity, in general, among these movements. The reason that new churches or movements START is because they LOST any unity they had when they were part of the same movement.

On the subject of CIRCULARITY, explain this verse, please: 1 Corinthians 14:32

The context of this statement refers back to v.30 -

"If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace"

It is an exhortation for SELF-CONTROL among the individuals. What has this to do with circular-reasoning?

My thread on Unbelief was not intended to entertain, but to inform. The fact that you gained nothing from it shows that you have an unteachable heart. We all have unbelief to some degree.

Well, since you are a prophet I guess that you are able to make the "secrets of my heart manifest" (1Cor.14:25) so how can I argue with that? ( :wink: *sarcasm alert* :wink: )

Why don't I just claim to be a prophet and judge YOUR heart? Would I need any more evidence to claim to be a prophet than you have given? I'll just swear to be scriptural and if I make a prophecy that doesn't come to pass I can write it off and just say "sorry, I was speaking from myself not the Lord" (All else I need to do is get a bunch of guys to also claim to be prophets and we'll all just make sure we agree with one another)
:roll:

 

[kwag_myers]

It sounds to me like you don't really believe these sort of things either or you'd be challenging me on it? Remember, you are the one who claimed to be experiencing miracles daily, but everytime I call something into question SPECIFICALLY, you seem to "hedge" about it.

That's because I don't feel that I need to prove anything to you. We've established the fact that you do not believe anything that I say, so why bother? You're unbelief is not my problem, so stop trying to make it my problem.

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him...

Not only do you lack faith in God's working of miracles, but you have made it your mission in life to steal the praise due to God for the working of these miracles. What more needs to be said? You've already discounted my healing by claiming that I could have done it without God's help. So, what evidence to you need to believe. Everything I submit, you dismiss.

Sure, Satan can imitate miracles, and often uses religious people to do it. But what is Satan imitating? There must be some true occurences of these things happening in order for Satan to have something to imitate, right? The big stumbling block here is that you believe that it's all lies and deception. What if, in some instances, it was God truly showing His presence among His people while you sit there and say it's not God? Don't you think He's going to want an explanation for your unbelief? I don't think your "once a lie, always a lie" policy is going to cut it.

Do you regard the guy who went and got the ladder to check the air vent for possible evidence of fraud as an "unbeliever" or "fleshly"? I am only doing, in general, what he did specifically. I think it is only what any sensible person would/should do. Why you have a problem with this I don't know.

Because he did it once, not every time someone praised God for a miracle. This person used this as an example of his unbelief, and how he had to repent of that unbelief.

Like I've said, we all have unbelief to some degree, i.e., we all need to deal with unbelief in our selves. It's how we deal with it that's important. We can either say, "Lord, help my unbelief" (which shows humility and is according to scripture - Mark 9:24), or refuse to take it the Lord (which is pride). Personally, I'd never go to all the trouble of getting a ladder. But then, this is not something new to me. I've been seeing God's miracles since I was a teen. He's taught me how to discern when it's Him and when it's man.

The "problem" that I have is that you took my testimony of God's healing on my life and tried to say it wasn't God at all. What true servant of God would try and take the credit away from God for His mighty acts?

1 Peter 4:11 - Are you called to be a speaker? Then speak as though God himself were speaking through you. Are you called to help others? Do it with all the strength and energy that God supplies. Then God will be given glory in everything through Jesus Christ. All glory and power belong to him forever and ever. Amen.

Then, you asked me why I started this thread, so I told you the truth, that it was for me to understand where my position is in relationship to others. And what did you do with that? Same thing. Launched an all-out attack to show how wrong or fake I am and how right you are, or what ever it is you think you must prove.

I don't always claim to be right, in fact, I freely admit there are many things I haven't even formed an opinion on yet because I am learning to question more and be open. It was when I was more of a fundamental Christian that I thought I was "always right". I'd give you "chapter and verse" and also assumed that my (and/or my group's) interpretation of that chapter and verse was right. And this is what I see, in general, among bible-thumpers of every denomination and persuasion - they believe they have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They are much more inflexible than the skeptic, because the skeptic, as a matter of course, doesn't necessarily believe he has all the answers. It's the people who think they know it all that irk me - that's why I like to challenge their claims when I find one I believe is disprovable or has no evidence in it's favor. I think we all need to RETHINK some things we may have been taught and take for granted.

Revelation 12:10 - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Sounds to me like you enjoy doing Satan's job for him, being his spokesperson, prophet.

Everyone you named disagree with EACH OTHER on some things. Debate/disagreement/argumentation is what discussion forums are all about. Do you think any forum would survive if everyone just agreed with each other? BOOORING...

So you're here seeking to be entertained? In a theology forum, no less. That's the funniest thing I've heard all week. I'm not here to entertain you, I'm hear to further my study in theology. Unfortunately, you offer little regarding the scriptures, while you attempt to prove your point about humanism.

Now you may think I'm patting myself on the back (I'm not) but people like me are GOOD for forums like these. I tend to get the "juices flowing". I'm spicing things up a little here and, to tell you the truth, I think this forum could use it. I'm not here to try and "entertain" first and foremost, but if we think that discussion forums that have NO entertainment value are gonna draw and sustain interest we're kidding ourselves.

Romans 1:28-32 - And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

You brought this guy up like "Chris Chandler says THIS..." so I question why you think what Chris Chandler says is something we should all react to like the voice out of heaven at Jesus' baptism? He's just another preacher. He "prophesies" that we are going to have the greatest outpouring ever in the church. I told you, preacher's who believe in "outpourings" have ALWAYS and will always predict this. He gives no specifics that one can hold him to.

No, I told you that this word had been judged by a group of prophets whom I've come to trust. It just so happens that God chose Chris Chandler to speak it. Why? I don't know, that's why I'm not God. Like I said, even a donkey can speak the Word of God. Common sense says that donkeys can't speak. So, I guess that you don't believe this portion of the Bible. Let's not forget the talking serpent who tempted Adam and Eve. Should we dismiss that one, too? Maybe this time Chandler got it right. Common sense says no way. But what is the Spirit saying?

Let's talk about what the Bible says. Explain to me this verses: John 14:12.

Why you'd bring this one up is a little puzzling since it is a skeptic's "dream verse" if anything. Are YOU doing "mightier works than Jesus"? You need to do an awful lot of rationalizing to answer this one. But I will give you a straight answer since I'm hoping to get one from you -

Either that verse only applies to the (original) disciples, or it is a later interpolation, or the vast majority of believers today really AREN'T, (because they're not doing greater works than Jesus, or even equal) or it's simply not true to begin with.

The reason I give a number of possible explanations is because, like I said, I don't claim to know everything. But, in any case, this verse is a major problem for any reasonable person.

But doesn't John 14:12 go along with Mark 16:17-20? You call it a "dream verse" but Mark tells use that God uses signs and wonders to confirm His Word. I see this being fulfilled, but instead of praising God with me, you seek to discredit my report.

As for me doing mightier works than Jesus, you're still on your high horse about me saying that I see these same miracles every day. You didn't believe that claim, why should I subject myself to more of your spiteful accusations? Again, I don't feel the need to prove what God is doing in my life. It's your unbelief, you deal with it.

You keep appealing to "doctrine" as if that is what our dispute is about and it really isn't. Your essay on prophets was very nice but it again it's mainly doctrinal. Most of the people on this forum could qualify as prophets from your list of qualifications. But I don't think prophets are a "dime a dozen" do you? Elijah was a prophet. He called down fire from heaven. Give me something to work with.

You mean, give you something you can argue against. What if I told you that I had a simular experience as Elijah on Mount Carmel? No, I didn't have a show-down against the prophets of Baal. But I did see someone call down fire from heaven (and they weren't even trying). Now here's where you start with, "Oh, that old parlor trick. People have been doing that one for years...". Well, several young people gave their hearts to Jesus that night. How many have you led to repentance with your skepticism? Luke 6:44, "A tree is identified by the kind of fruit it produces. Figs never grow on thornbushes or grapes on bramble bushes." Well, give me some numbers. How many?

As to doctrine, humanism is by definition a doctrine. Tell me if this isn't what you've been saying with your "common sense" approach to miracles:

Websters - "a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially: a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason."

Now, I glad that most people in this forum qualify as prophets. But how many qualify as false prophets? That is the point of the thread. And it must be pretty solid doctrine if no one has added to it, or shown it to be incorrect.

You are afflicted with "tunnel vision" logic. You have to step out of that "subjective straitjacket" you're in. I don't know how else to explain this but I'll try again. What you're saying might carry weight IF EVERYONE WHO CLAIMS GOD IS TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO OR SAY WAS DOING AND SAYING THE SAME THING - but that is not the case. It may be the case within your particular fellowship, but that's just your group. Contemporary groups where everyone and his brother claimed to be prophets (like Vineyard, Toronto Fellowship, Kansas City Metro, etc) have split and split again because they couldn't agree. They do the same thing the earlier denominations did, and having "prophets" didn't help them all "see" the same thing.

I don't care what other groups are doing. I only care about what God is doing and knowing His direction for my own life. Those others have to work out their own salvation. I'm busy with the log in my eye, thank you very much. But at least they are working on it instead of sitting back and telling everyone they are doing it all wrong and offering no Biblically based alternative. What's worse, those who try and fail or you pointing your finger and criticizing them?

You keep appealing to "unity" as some sort of proof of something. There is NO unity, in general, among these movements. The reason that new churches or movements START is because they LOST any unity they had when they were part of the same movement.

It does prove something. It proves that people truly are listening to one source, the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:3 & 13.

The context of this statement refers back to v.30 -

"If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace"

It is an exhortation for SELF-CONTROL among the individuals. What has this to do with circular-reasoning?

I don't know, you brought it up. I explained how God judges and then communicates to His prophets, and you responded with "circulation". The fact that you cannot apply this verse to your own life shows spiritual immaturity. Perhaps you should pay attention to the "hold his peace" portion.

Well, since you are a prophet I guess that you are able to make the "secrets of my heart manifest" (1Cor.14:25) so how can I argue with that? ( *sarcasm alert* )

Why don't I just claim to be a prophet and judge YOUR heart? Would I need any more evidence to claim to be a prophet than you have given? I'll just swear to be scriptural and if I make a prophecy that doesn't come to pass I can write it off and just say "sorry, I was speaking from myself not the Lord" (All else I need to do is get a bunch of guys to also claim to be prophets and we'll all just make sure we agree with one another)

"Just claiming" to be a prophet again shows your spiritual immaturity. To be a prophet requires the gifting, Ephesians 4:11 and the anointing, Isaiah 61:1-6. You have yet to show evidence of either.

 

[DivineNames]

A miracle is an event which counteracts and defies the normal laws of nature or physics or anything which we would ordinarily regard as lying within the boundaries of "reality". Whether a miracle has occured or not is an OBJECTIVE REALITY which can be measured, analyzed, and proven one way or the other as to whether it really happened or not. That is, if the circumstances and hard evidence of the event and/or persons involved are available to be tested.

If you have good evidence that what is understood to be a "law" of nature has been broken, is it proof of a miracle? or is it possible that what happened was merely a rare and inexplicable "natural" event, that our understanding of nature is somehow inadequate in this case?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

It sounds to me like you don't really believe these sort of things either or you'd be challenging me on it? Remember, you are the one who claimed to be experiencing miracles daily, but everytime I call something into question SPECIFICALLY, you seem to "hedge" about it.

That's because I don't feel that I need to prove anything to you. We've established the fact that you do not believe anything that I say, so why bother? You're unbelief is not my problem, so stop trying to make it my problem

You still haven't explained to me WHY I should believe your claims? How do I know you're telling the truth? Or how do I know you are not somehow mistaken yourself? According to your choice in the poll, we should believe ANYONE who makes ANY miraculous claim. But such a position is OBVIOUSLY FOOLISH and the reason why is so self-evident that no rational person should even need an explanation.

[quote:d79e0]Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him...

Not only do you lack faith in God's working of miracles, but you have made it your mission in life to steal the praise due to God for the working of these miracles. What more needs to be said? You've already discounted my healing by claiming that I could have done it without God's help. So, what evidence to you need to believe. Everything I submit, you dismiss

But WHAT have you submitted? I asked you to give the details of your healing and you didn't.

Sure, Satan can imitate miracles, and often uses religious people to do it. But what is Satan imitating? There must be some true occurences of these things happening in order for Satan to have something to imitate, right? The big stumbling block here is that you believe that it's all lies and deception. What if, in some instances, it was God truly showing His presence among His people while you sit there and say it's not God? Don't you think He's going to want an explanation for your unbelief? I don't think your "once a lie, always a lie" policy is going to cut it.

I'm equally prepared to say "prove it was SATAN". That too would be a supernatural occurence.

Do you regard the guy who went and got the ladder to check the air vent for possible evidence of fraud as an "unbeliever" or "fleshly"? I am only doing, in general, what he did specifically. I think it is only what any sensible person would/should do. Why you have a problem with this I don't know.

Because he did it once, not every time someone praised God for a miracle. This person used this as an example of his unbelief, and how he had to repent of that unbelief

Well, he simply gave up searching for the cause too EASILY. You see you guys are easily fooled because you are prediposed to believing that everything that might be a little out of the ordinary is a genuine miracle. You WANT to believe it was a miracle, you DON'T want to find out it wasn't, which is why you probably expend very little energy trying to find out how it might have been a trick or that there may be a natural explanation.

Like I've said, we all have unbelief to some degree, i.e., we all need to deal with unbelief in our selves. It's how we deal with it that's important. We can either say, "Lord, help my unbelief" (which shows humility and is according to scripture - Mark 9:24), or refuse to take it the Lord (which is pride). Personally, I'd never go to all the trouble of getting a ladder. But then, this is not something new to me. I've been seeing God's miracles since I was a teen. He's taught me how to discern when it's Him and when it's man

Then why do you object to my trying to discern whether it's of God or of man? Maybe I don't rely on the same "discernment" as you (because your claim of "spiritual" discernment would be, in and of itself, a supernatural gift, which would have to be tested as much as the supposed miracle you were trying to "discern" the validity of. This is indicative of the circular reasoning you employ.

The "problem" that I have is that you took my testimony of God's healing on my life and tried to say it wasn't God at all

I didn't say it wasn't God at all (in SOME way, a way that you even alluded back when you mentioned the way in which our bodies are made) I said my reaction is I doubt it was a MIRACLE. You still do not understand the nature of what would constitute a true miracle.

Here is a quote which displays, I believe, INVINCIBLE logic. I hope that you will take time to consider how much GOOD sense this really makes...

"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless the testimony be of such a kind that it's falsehood would be MORE MIRACULOUS that the fact it endeavors to establish" (David Hume)

What true servant of God would try and take the credit away from God for His mighty acts?

Maybe the "acts" you prepose are not "mighty" ENOUGH for me to believe they are "GOD'S mighty acts". Perhaps it is the ones who claim that God is sprinkling gold dust and changing dental fillings to gold in their meetings that are doing a disservice to God by making the whole thing a "laughing stock" to the rest of the world?

1 Peter 4:11 - Are you called to be a speaker? Then speak as though God himself were speaking through you. Are you called to help others? Do it with all the strength and energy that God supplies. Then God will be given glory in everything through Jesus Christ. All glory and power belong to him forever and ever. Amen.

Not sure what that verse has to do with anything?

Then, you asked me why I started this thread, so I told you the truth, that it was for me to understand where my position is in relationship to others. And what did you do with that? Same thing. Launched an all-out attack to show how wrong or fake I am and how right you are, or what ever it is you think you must prove

If someone told you your "fly was open", would you consider that an "all-out attack" on you personally? Apparently. I think you have a persecution complex and/or delusion. All I did was point out that your particular choice of answer in the poll is a gullible position. It cannot be otherwise, for simply to accept WITHOUT QUESTION, anyone who makes any miraculous claim is foolish.

Metaphorically speaking, your "fly IS still open".

I don't always claim to be right, in fact, I freely admit there are many things I haven't even formed an opinion on yet because I am learning to question more and be open. It was when I was more of a fundamental Christian that I thought I was "always right". I'd give you "chapter and verse" and also assumed that my (and/or my group's) interpretation of that chapter and verse was right. And this is what I see, in general, among bible-thumpers of every denomination and persuasion - they believe they have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They are much more inflexible than the skeptic, because the skeptic, as a matter of course, doesn't necessarily believe he has all the answers. It's the people who think they know it all that irk me - that's why I like to challenge their claims when I find one I believe is disprovable or has no evidence in it's favor. I think we all need to RETHINK some things we may have been taught and take for granted.

Revelation 12:10 - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Sounds to me like you enjoy doing Satan's job for him, being his spokesperson, prophet.

Way back you claimed that just because someone disagreed with you didn't mean you thought they were "of Satan" - but I think that since then you have proven otherwise. It seems to me you are so deeply entrenched in what you might term the "spiritual realm" you cannot tell what is real and what isn't. I've met people like this before. They are "prophets" and everyone who doubts what they say "has a demon". You're loosing touch with reality, Kwag.

Everyone you named disagree with EACH OTHER on some things. Debate/disagreement/argumentation is what discussion forums are all about. Do you think any forum would survive if everyone just agreed with each other? BOOORING...

So you're here seeking to be entertained? In a theology forum, no less. That's the funniest thing I've heard all week. I'm not here to entertain you, I'm hear to further my study in theology. Unfortunately, you offer little regarding the scriptures, while you attempt to prove your point about humanism

But you ARE entertaining me - at least you WERE...now I'm beginning to worry about you.

Now you may think I'm patting myself on the back (I'm not) but people like me are GOOD for forums like these. I tend to get the "juices flowing". I'm spicing things up a little here and, to tell you the truth, I think this forum could use it. I'm not here to try and "entertain" first and foremost, but if we think that discussion forums that have NO entertainment value are gonna draw and sustain interest we're kidding ourselves.

Romans 1:28-32 - And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

You condition seems to be getting worse post by post? I'm having difficulty fitting that last quote into the context of out discussion? (Unless you just are taking another shot at me by claiming I have all the preceeding characteristics? That's okay - you accuse me all you want if it helps you feel better. I won't lose my temper - I realize you may have a problem)

You brought this guy up like "Chris Chandler says THIS..." so I question why you think what Chris Chandler says is something we should all react to like the voice out of heaven at Jesus' baptism? He's just another preacher. He "prophesies" that we are going to have the greatest outpouring ever in the church. I told you, preacher's who believe in "outpourings" have ALWAYS and will always predict this. He gives no specifics that one can hold him to.

No, I told you that this word had been judged by a group of prophets whom I've come to trust. It just so happens that God chose Chris Chandler to speak it. Why? I don't know, that's why I'm not God. Like I said, even a donkey can speak the Word of God. Common sense says that donkeys can't speak. So, I guess that you don't believe this portion of the Bible. Let's not forget the talking serpent who tempted Adam and Eve. Should we dismiss that one, too? Maybe this time Chandler got it right. Common sense says no way. But what is the Spirit saying?

I don't know - I guess we'll have to wait till the "big outpouring" of miracles like in the bible happens? (When did he say that was going to start?)

Let's talk about what the Bible says. Explain to me this verses: John 14:12.

Why you'd bring this one up is a little puzzling since it is a skeptic's "dream verse" if anything. Are YOU doing "mightier works than Jesus"? You need to do an awful lot of rationalizing to answer this one. But I will give you a straight answer since I'm hoping to get one from you

Either that verse only applies to the (original) disciples, or it is a later interpolation, or the vast majority of believers today really AREN'T, (because they're not doing greater works than Jesus, or even equal) or it's simply not true to begin with.

The reason I give a number of possible explanations is because, like I said, I don't claim to know everything. But, in any case, this verse is a major problem for any reasonable person.

But doesn't John 14:12 go along with Mark 16:17-20? You call it a "dream verse" but Mark tells use that God uses signs and wonders to confirm His Word. I see this being fulfilled, but instead of praising God with me, you seek to discredit my report. As for me doing mightier works than Jesus, you're still on your high horse about me saying that I see these same miracles every day. You didn't believe that claim, why should I subject myself to more of your spiteful accusations? Again, I don't feel the need to prove what God is doing in my life. It's your unbelief, you deal with it.

"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless the testimony be of such a kind that it's falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact it endeavors to establish"

It would certainly not require a miracle that your testimony be incorrect for some reason - therefore, I cannot accept your testimony by itself.

(also, I think you need to take a deep breath and get your bearings. You claim to see the same miracles as in the gospels everyday, and/or to be involved in "GREATER works than Jesus did" and you accuse ME of being on a "high horse"? How does that work?)

You keep appealing to "doctrine" as if that is what our dispute is about and it really isn't. Your essay on prophets was very nice but it again it's mainly doctrinal. Most of the people on this forum could qualify as prophets from your list of qualifications. But I don't think prophets are a "dime a dozen" do you? Elijah was a prophet. He called down fire from heaven. Give me something to work with.

You mean, give you something you can argue against. What if I told you that I had a simular experience as Elijah on Mount Carmel? No, I didn't have a show-down against the prophets of Baal. But I did see someone call down fire from heaven (and they weren't even trying). Now here's where you start with, "Oh, that old parlor trick. People have been doing that one for years...". Well, several young people gave their hearts to Jesus that night. How many have you led to repentance with your skepticism? Luke 6:44, "A tree is identified by the kind of fruit it produces. Figs never grow on thornbushes or grapes on bramble bushes." Well, give me some numbers. How many?

Are we going to get the details of this incident or are we just going to have to use our imagination?

As to doctrine, humanism is by definition a doctrine. Tell me if this isn't what you've been saying with your "common sense" approach to miracles:

Websters - "a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially: a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason."

Now, I glad that most people in this forum qualify as prophets. But how many qualify as false prophets? That is the point of the thread. And it must be pretty solid doctrine if no one has added to it, or shown it to be incorrect.

Are you saying that most people on this forum qualify as prophets? That wasn't clear.

You are afflicted with "tunnel vision" logic. You have to step out of that "subjective straitjacket" you're in. I don't know how else to explain this but I'll try again. What you're saying might carry weight IF EVERYONE WHO CLAIMS GOD IS TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO OR SAY WAS DOING AND SAYING THE SAME THING - but that is not the case. It may be the case within your particular fellowship, but that's just your group. Contemporary groups where everyone and his brother claimed to be prophets (like Vineyard, Toronto Fellowship, Kansas City Metro, etc) have split and split again because they couldn't agree. They do the same thing the earlier denominations did, and having "prophets" didn't help them all "see" the same thing.

I don't care what other groups are doing. I only care about what God is doing and knowing His direction for my own life. Those others have to work out their own salvation. I'm busy with the log in my eye, thank you very much.

The one that has you seeing miracles daily? Impaired vision could account for many things.

But at least they are working on it instead of sitting back and telling everyone they are doing it all wrong and offering no Biblically based alternative. What's worse, those who try and fail or you pointing your finger and criticizing them?

It is not my intention to CRITICIZE individuals (though I may have been goaded into it) I just DOUBT most of these claims. The reason I doubt is a combination of personal experience, research, and that "dreadful affliction" called common sense. There was a time when I believed almost every miraculous claim I came across. I found out I was being deceived. "Doubt" is a good thing if the thing you doubt turns out to be not true.

You keep appealing to "unity" as some sort of proof of something. There is NO unity, in general, among these movements. The reason that new churches or movements START is because they LOST any unity they had when they were part of the same movement.

It does prove something. It proves that people truly are listening to one source, the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:3 & 13.

Helloooo? Is any one home? The fact that there is a lack of unity in the churches proves people are listening to one source? Take 2 aspirins (unless you have something stronger) and post me in the morning.

The context of this statement refers back to v.30 -

"If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace"

It is an exhortation for SELF-CONTROL among the individuals. What has this to do with circular-reasoning?

I don't know, you brought it up. I explained how God judges and then communicates to His prophets, and you responded with "circulation". The fact that you cannot apply this verse to your own life shows spiritual immaturity. Perhaps you should pay attention to the "hold his peace" portion.

Well, since you are a prophet I guess that you are able to make the "secrets of my heart manifest" (1Cor.14:25) so how can I argue with that? ( *sarcasm alert* )

Why don't I just claim to be a prophet and judge YOUR heart? Would I need any more evidence to claim to be a prophet than you have given? I'll just swear to be scriptural and if I make a prophecy that doesn't come to pass I can write it off and just say "sorry, I was speaking from myself not the Lord" (All else I need to do is get a bunch of guys to also claim to be prophets and we'll all just make sure we agree with one another)

"Just claiming" to be a prophet again shows your spiritual immaturity. To be a prophet requires the gifting, Ephesians 4:11 and the anointing, Isaiah 61:1-6. You have yet to show evidence of either.

[/quote:d79e0]

Gee, you sound a lot like ME there. I need EVIDENCE to prove I am a prophet? There's hope for you yet, Kwag!! :P

 

[BradtheImpaler]

A miracle is an event which counteracts and defies the normal laws of nature or physics or anything which we would ordinarily regard as lying within the boundaries of "reality". Whether a miracle has occured or not is an OBJECTIVE REALITY which can be measured, analyzed, and proven one way or the other as to whether it really happened or not. That is, if the circumstances and hard evidence of the event and/or persons involved are available to be tested.

If you have good evidence that what is understood to be a "law" of nature has been broken, is it proof of a miracle? or is it possible that what happened was merely a rare and inexplicable "natural" event, that our understanding of nature is somehow inadequate in this case?

That would be a further consideration in favor of a skeptical outlook. Good point.

Hey DN -

Am I imagining things or do you always seem to challenge me even though, in general, we are in agreement? You argued with me in favor of the possibility of a Trinity, (even though you are not a Christian and therefore not a Trinitarian), and now you point out my definition of what constitutes a miracle doesn't take into account all considerations, even though you obviously are skeptical as I am. Or am I catching Kwag's "persecution complex"? (is it communicable? :wink

I don't know...

It's just that I have this dream that one day you might actually challenge the guy I am arguing with? You know, the one you DON'T agree with?

 

[DivineNames]

Sorry, its nothing personal. I just respond on what takes my interest. :D perhaps I will look to see if there are any points I can make against Kwag_Myers... I don't want you to feel persecuted now...

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Kwag,

Let me try and address something aside from the many detailed exchanges we are having...

I think that, in general, your position is "extremist" while mine is not. I know you think I am blind, unbelieving, stubborn, etc. but yet my perspective is not as "one-sided" as yours is. I think there are two extreme viewpoints on this issue, one that miracles CANNOT and DO NOT occur, and the other that miracles do not only occur, but they occur frequently enough that we should not even question anyone who makes a miraculous claim. Your view, the 2nd, is extremist. It is obviously flawed and anyone who adheres to it has no way to sift out the true from the counterfeit because he is swallowing it all. And people who think like this are the reason why there are so may religious-hucksters afoot - their particular "field" is "ripe for the harvest".

My view, however, is, of course, not the 2nd extreme, but NOT the first extreme either. My perspective is that I cannot say miracles CANNOT occur, but only that MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, most alleged miracles turn out to be something else and I am therefore wary of these claims in general.

This being the case, why are you so upset with ME, when my perspective is more open-minded than yours?

 

[Free]

My perspective is that I cannot say miracles CANNOT occur, but only that MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, most alleged miracles turn out to be something else and I am therefore wary of these claims in general.

I am curious on what grounds you can make this claim. A skeptic such as yourself should avoid words like "most" and "more often than not". It would be better for you to claim ignorance and not have an opinion at all about miracles.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

My perspective is that I cannot say miracles CANNOT occur, but only that MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, most alleged miracles turn out to be something else and I am therefore wary of these claims in general.

I am curious on what grounds you can make this claim. A skeptic such as yourself should avoid words like "most" and "more often than not"

Because of my own experience and accounts like this...

"I investigated for my book ("The Faith Healers") 104 cases of people who said they had been healed...and I found out that those 104 people belonged to 3 classes: 1st class is people who never had the disease they thought they did...2nd class...were people who still had the diseases of which they said they'd been healed...the 3rd class of people was even sadder. They were people who were already dead by the time I got around to interview them" ("James Randi and the Faith Healers" http://www.abc.net.au/science/correx/ar ... randi2.htm)

[quote:df780]It would be better for you to claim ignorance and not have an opinion at all about miracles.

[/quote:df780]

Why? Don't think I'd recognize one if I saw it? Or are you afraid of what honest investigation might uncover?

 

[kwag_myers]

Kwag,

Let me try and address something aside from the many detailed exchanges we are having...

I think that, in general, your position is "extremist" while mine is not.

This is the reason we are having this lengthy debate. Right here is the very cause of this whole conflict. You state that your position is not extremist which is exactly contrary to the results of this poll. You want evidence but you refuse to look at it.

I know you think I am blind, unbelieving, stubborn, etc. but yet my perspective is not as "one-sided" as yours is.

Actually, I believe that I've offered enough scripture to prove my opinion of you. Your position is contrary to scripture.

I think there are two extreme viewpoints on this issue, one that miracles CANNOT and DO NOT occur, and the other that miracles do not only occur, but they occur frequently enough that we should not even question anyone who makes a miraculous claim. Your view, the 2nd, is extremist.

You still don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning. You rely solely on your human understanding. That's not the way things are done in the Kingdom of God.

It is obviously flawed and anyone who adheres to it has no way to sift out the true from the counterfeit because he is swallowing it all. And people who think like this are the reason why there are so may religious-hucksters afoot - their particular "field" is "ripe for the harvest".

Actually, people are gullible by nature. How many times have you received an urban legend email from someone who actually believed that Bill Gates would pay some money every time this note was forwarded, etc?

My point is, the reason you see factions and people being duped is because they don't rely on the Holy Spirit to discern for them. And then you try and use that against my position, when if fact, it's proof of what I'm saying.

I know that I'm setting myself up with this, but this is my last attempt to show you how the Spirit brings unity. In the church that I attend, the spiritual leadership comes from four people (elders). Now, everyone has been telling us for years that plurality of elders doesn't work. But the fact is, it's been working for over eight years. Why? These are people who know the Word, and humble themselves to it. If they disagree on something, they pray about it until they are in unity. No debate, no vote and revote. None of that.

If you listen to the Spirit, you get the same message as everyone else who listens to the Spirit.

My view, however, is, of course, not the 2nd extreme, but NOT the first extreme either. My perspective is that I cannot say miracles CANNOT occur, but only that MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, most alleged miracles turn out to be something else and I am therefore wary of these claims in general.

This being the case, why are you so upset with ME, when my perspective is more open-minded than yours?

Because it's not scriptural, it's humanism. You cannot walk by the Spirit and rely on your own human wisdom at the same time. There is going to be a conflict, and because the Holy Spirit doesn't force us to do anything that we are not willing to do, He backs off. This is known as grieving the Spirit.

 

[Free]

Why?

Because it is fallacious.

Don't think I'd recognize one if I saw it?

It is not a matter of you recognizing one or not. Your skepticism will always lead you to believe that a miracle has not occured. Your problem is that you dismiss miracles before you even investigate.

Or are you afraid of what honest investigation might uncover?

Not at all. Rather, I am afraid that your investigation isn't really honest.

 

[DivineNames]

Kwag,

Let me try and address something aside from the many detailed exchanges we are having...

I think that, in general, your position is "extremist" while mine is not.

This is the reason we are having this lengthy debate. Right here is the very cause of this whole conflict. You state that your position is not extremist which is exactly contrary to the results of this poll. You want evidence but you refuse to look at it.

You mean the 10 votes cast (so far) in a poll on a Christian forum? How on earth could anyone think this poll is likely to be a representative and reliable indicator of opinion?


(Setting aside whether or not BradtheImpaler was even basing his claim to a non-extremist view on the grounds of popular opinion.)

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Kwag,

Let me try and address something aside from the many detailed exchanges we are having...

I think that, in general, your position is "extremist" while mine is not.

This is the reason we are having this lengthy debate. Right here is the very cause of this whole conflict. You state that your position is not extremist which is exactly contrary to the results of this poll. You want evidence but you refuse to look at it

You're kidding right? Aside from our vote, 5 out of 7 people agree with you and this is EVIDENCE that my view is extreme? If this poll were taken among ALL Christians everywhere, I'll bet the outcome would be different.

But, in any case, polls don't mean much except in elections. The more believers that pick #1 in this poll, the more believers are EASILY DUPED. That's all it would indicate.

I know you think I am blind, unbelieving, stubborn, etc. but yet my perspective is not as "one-sided" as yours is.

[quote:39f4c]Actually, I believe that I've offered enough scripture to prove my opinion of you. Your position is contrary to scripture

I believe my position is not only NOT contrary to scripture, but MANDATED by it...

"Prove all things, hold fast to what is good" (1Thess.5:21)

Let's have a look at the word "prove"...

(dokimazo#1381)
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not) as metals.
2) To recognize as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.

Ironic that this definition includes the example of proving "metal", since we were talking about the "gold dust" thing. Your friend shouldn't have "repented" for checking the air conditioning duct - if anything, he should have repented for NOT checking everyone's hair and pockets ALSO.

I think there are two extreme viewpoints on this issue, one that miracles CANNOT and DO NOT occur, and the other that miracles do not only occur, but they occur frequently enough that we should not even question anyone who makes a miraculous claim. Your view, the 2nd, is extremist.

You still don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning. You rely solely on your human understanding. That's not the way things are done in the Kingdom of God

You rely on your human understanding also - your human understanding of what you THINK the Spirit is telling you.

It is obviously flawed and anyone who adheres to it has no way to sift out the true from the counterfeit because he is swallowing it all. And people who think like this are the reason why there are so may religious-hucksters afoot - their particular "field" is "ripe for the harvest".

Actually, people are gullible by nature. How many times have you received an urban legend email from someone who actually believed that Bill Gates would pay some money every time this note was forwarded, etc?

Exactly!

My point is, the reason you see factions and people being duped is because they don't rely on the Holy Spirit to discern for them. And then you try and use that against my position, when if fact, it's proof of what I'm saying

Why do you need to appeal to "spiritual discernment" (which, in and of ITSELF is extremely subjective also) in these cases, when you can find out what's really going on with "real world" objective investigation?

For example, how did James Randi expose Peter Popoff's "word of knowledge" ear-phone scam?

(http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-39-17Mhz.htm)

Randi is not a Christian. He does not utilize "spritual discernment". As a former magician, he has a knowledge of how "the hand is faster than the eye" and how easily people can be deceived by simple scams. How come none of the who knows how many believers that had been attending Popoff's meetings were able to discover this "con"? Were none of them relying on the Holy Spirit?

Now before you get all wound up - I'm not implying that I think something as overt as the Popoff scam goes on in your fellowship. I'm using this as an example. We SHOULD be skeptical of what appears to be supernatural unless and until all attempts to uncover how it MAY have occured naturally ( or deceptively) have been exhausted. If it's a true miracle - it (and we) have nothing to fear from it's investigation. And it it ISN'T a true miracle - wouldn't you want to know that before you made public claims?

(quote]I know that I'm setting myself up with this, but this is my last attempt to show you how the Spirit brings unity. In the church that I attend, the spiritual leadership comes from four people (elders). Now, everyone has been telling us for years that plurality of elders doesn't work. But the fact is, it's been working for over eight years. Why? These are people who know the Word, and humble themselves to it. If they disagree on something, they pray about it until they are in unity. No debate, no vote and revote. None of that[/quote:39f4c]

Vety good. I believe a plurality of elders is the NT pattern. We actually agree on something! (Should we stop now? :D)

If you listen to the Spirit, you get the same message as everyone else who listens to the Spirit

But your frame of reference is too small. What about ALL the churches - they are obviously not all hearing the same Spirit. Or just take the Charismatics and "newer wave" (whatever) Charismatics where each church claims elders and prophets. They should all agree also, but obviously they don't, and the constant splintering among these groups is as frequent as any other church movements past or present.

So HOW do you know that your group is hearing from God and others that may disagree with you AREN'T? Again, it ends up in a subjective maelstrom.

My view, however, is, of course, not the 2nd extreme, but NOT the first extreme either. My perspective is that I cannot say miracles CANNOT occur, but only that MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, most alleged miracles turn out to be something else and I am therefore wary of these claims in general.

This being the case, why are you so upset with ME, when my perspective is more open-minded than yours?

Because it's not scriptural, it's humanism. You cannot walk by the Spirit and rely on your own human wisdom at the same time. There is going to be a conflict, and because the Holy Spirit doesn't force us to do anything that we are not willing to do, He backs off. This is known as grieving the Spirit.

Believing anyone who makes any claim is not scriptural - it's just plain DUMB, in the church or outside of it. Now you respond by saying that you DO test it "by the Spirit", but that's not what the first choice on your poll indicates. That first choice was just to "believe them", PERIOD.

 

[DivineNames]

You still don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit in discerning. You rely solely on your human understanding. That's not the way things are done in the Kingdom of God.

Anyone, from any religion, can appeal to "God inspired" spiritual intuition.