Miracles, do you believe?

[BradtheImpaler]

Why?

Because it is fallacious

Okay - you just stated your position but that doesn't tell us "why".

Don't think I'd recognize one if I saw it?

[quote:a3e74]It is not a matter of you recognizing one or not. Your skepticism will always lead you to believe that a miracle has not occured. Your problem is that you dismiss miracles before you even investigate

No, I'm afraid you're very mixed up :-? I am not "dismissing miracles before investigation" - I am ADVOCATING INVESTIGATION, Kwag is against investigation, because he feels that would display a lack of faith. My skepticism only leads me to believe that we should not CLAIM a miracle has occured until all attempts to DISPROVE it have failed. If you are not skeptical in the least, you have NO DEFENSE against being scammed or otherwise mistaken.

Or are you afraid of what honest investigation might uncover?

Not at all. Rather, I am afraid that your investigation isn't really honest.

[/quote:a3e74]

How do you know this? Please give an example.

 

[kwag_myers]

You mean the 10 votes cast (so far) in a poll on a Christian forum? How on earth could anyone think this poll is likely to be a representative and reliable indicator of opinion?

Well, it's easy for me. Which part are you having trouble with? Do polls involve everyone, or a small segment of people?

According to Webster's, a poll is, "a questioning or canvassing of persons selected at random or by quota to obtain information or opinions to be analyzed". I chose this forum for my "random selection".

Actually, I'm a bit surprised at the results (so far). I was under the impression that there was a great deal more unbelief in the church than what this poll shows.

Anyone, from any religion, can appeal to "God inspired" spiritual intuition.

Hebrews 2:4, "and God verified the message by signs and wonders and various miracles and by giving gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose to do so."

 

[kwag_myers]

I believe my position is not only NOT contrary to scripture, but MANDATED by it...

"Prove all things, hold fast to what is good" (1Thess.5:21)

Let's have a look at the word "prove"...

(dokimazo#1381)
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not) as metals.
2) To recognize as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.

Ironic that this definition includes the example of proving "metal", since we were talking about the "gold dust" thing. Your friend shouldn't have "repented" for checking the air conditioning duct - if anything, he should have repented for NOT checking everyone's hair and pockets ALSO.

FINALLY, a scripture to support your position. What did it take, three pages of fruitless babble?

Now maybe we can have a theological discussion. O.k., God tells us to prove all things, on this there is no debate ('cause the Work says so). The next question is, how do we prove all things? Does God ever give us a command without telling us how to accomplish it? No. So, what does the Bible say about proving?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I believe my position is not only NOT contrary to scripture, but MANDATED by it...

"Prove all things, hold fast to what is good" (1Thess.5:21)

Let's have a look at the word "prove"...

(dokimazo#1381)
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not) as metals.
2) To recognize as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.

Ironic that this definition includes the example of proving "metal", since we were talking about the "gold dust" thing. Your friend shouldn't have "repented" for checking the air conditioning duct - if anything, he should have repented for NOT checking everyone's hair and pockets ALSO.

FINALLY, a scripture to support your position

I mentioned this one earlier - perhaps on another thread?

[quote:a9e80]What did it take, three pages of fruitless babble?

I don't feel our discussion has been "fruitless", as, by now, it should be quite evident to any unbiased observer that your position is based on assumption and circular reasoning.

"It is the last gasp of a discredited and disproven position to deny that the tools of evidence and reason have a role to play" (Chris Ho-Stuart)

Now maybe we can have a theological discussion

Is the reason you desire a more "theological" type debate because you think you can discreetly BEGIN with the assumption that since the bible says "signs and wonders will follow", ANYONE who claims genuine signs and wonders today should be believed without question? If so, that is a false assumption.

O.k., God tells us to prove all things, on this there is no debate ('cause the Work says so). The next question is, how do we prove all things? Does God ever give us a command without telling us how to accomplish it? No. So, what does the Bible say about proving?

[/quote:a9e80]

"Test, examine, prove, SCRUTINIZE"

Scrutinize: To examine or observe with great care, INSPECT CRITICALLY (dictionary.com)

 

[kwag_myers]

I don't feel our discussion has been "fruitless", as, by now, it should be quite evident to any unbiased observer that your position is based on assumption and circular reasoning.

My only assumption is that I believe God's true to His Word. There is also the assumption that any doctrine that is not supported by (or founded upon) scripture is of the devil.

"It is the last gasp of a discredited and disproven position to deny that the tools of evidence and reason have a role to play" (Chris Ho-Stuart)

Was he talking about theology, software (http://sky.fit.qut.edu.au/~hostuart/), or the evolution of the Bombardier Beetle (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/feb00.html)? I'm sure we could find numerous sources for both sides of the issue. But then, my understanding of God's Word comes from the Holy Spirit. What does Ho-Stuart have to say about that?

It bothers me that you would rely on an evolutionist to support your position in a Christian Theological forum. This shows just how far from God's Word that you have strayed.

Is the reason you desire a more "theological" type debate because you think you can discreetly BEGIN with the assumption that since the bible says "signs and wonders will follow", ANYONE who claims genuine signs and wonders today should be believed without question? If so, that is a false assumption.

I desire a theological type debate because this is a theological forum. Common sense tells me that a theological forum is for theological discussion. I guess I was wrong to rely on common sense.

O.k., God tells us to prove all things, on this there is no debate ('cause the Work says so). The next question is, how do we prove all things? Does God ever give us a command without telling us how to accomplish it? No. So, what does the Bible say about proving?

"Test, examine, prove, SCRUTINIZE"

Scrutinize: To examine or observe with great care, INSPECT CRITICALLY (dictionary.com)

How quickly you abandon God's Word for worldly wisdom.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:21, the word prove is dokimazo in the original Greek (as you have already posted). Dokimazo is used 23 times in the New Testament and is translated to prove 10 times, try four times, approve three times, discern twice, allow twice, like once and examine once.

Verses for prove: Luke 14: 19; Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 8:8; 22; 13:5; Galatians 6:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 Timothy 3:10; and Hebrews 3:9. The only verse of these that gives us any direction as to how to prove all things is Romans 12:2,

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

So it's by the renewing of our minds that we prove all things. How are our minds renewed? By the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:23; Titus 3:5).

Verses for try: 1 Corinthians 3:13 (our works are tried by fire); 1 John 4:1 (try every spirit).

So, the Holy Spirit renews our minds that we may prove or try every spirit (I'm not seeing anything about man's wisdom yet).

Verses for approve: Romans 2:18; 1 Corinthians 16:3; and Philippians 1:10. All tell us what to approve, but not how.

Verses for discern: Actually, dokimazo is translated to discern twice in Luke 12:56. Still talking about what and not how.

Verses for allow: Romans 14:22 and 1 Thessalonians 2:4, which says that it is God who allows or proves someone for a ministry.

Verse for like: Romans 1:28, the consequences of not acknowledging God in your reasoning.

Verse for examine: 1 Corinthians 11:28, examine yourself, not others.

Now, have I overlooked anything in scripture pertaining to how we are to prove all things?

 

[DivineNames]

Well, it's easy for me. Which part are you having trouble with? Do polls involve everyone, or a small segment of people?

A small segment of people. That doesn't mean a poll of 10 people is sound. Pollsters tend to use a sample size of about 1000 people.

According to Webster's, a poll is, "a questioning or canvassing of persons selected at random or by quota to obtain information or opinions to be analyzed". I chose this forum for my "random selection".

Second problem. How do you know it's a random selection? What grounds do you have to be sure that the Christians in this forum are representative of Christians in general?

 

[DivineNames]

Anyone, from any religion, can appeal to "God inspired" spiritual intuition.

Hebrews 2:4, "and God verified the message by signs and wonders and various miracles and by giving gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose to do so."

Wasn't this about the Spirit discerning true miracles? this discernment can hardly be verified by mircale.

 

[kwag_myers]

A small segment of people. That doesn't mean a poll of 10 people is sound. Pollsters tend to use a sample size of about 1000 people.

So, why do we have polls in this forum if they don't mean anything?

Second problem. How do you know it's a random selection?

Because I chose it at random.

What grounds do you have to be sure that the Christians in this forum are representative of Christians in general?

Once again let me state that one of my reasons for this poll is for me to understand how my position relates to other Christians. This is not market research, or political projections. It's for me. So back off with the, "...you gotta have this, and that, and you really should...".

Wasn't this about the Spirit discerning true miracles? this discernment can hardly be verified by mircale.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Sure, anyone can claim spiritual discernment. But that doesn't change scripture, or excuse or use of human reasoning in spiritual matters. Yeah, if a guy is using a radio transmitter to con people into thinking it's a word of knowledge, there's no need to pray about it. But what if there is no obvious evidence? Jesus rebuked His disciples for not believing the testimony of others. So how do we know when to believe and when to investigate?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I don't feel our discussion has been "fruitless", as, by now, it should be quite evident to any unbiased observer that your position is based on assumption and circular reasoning.

My only assumption is that I believe God's true to His Word. There is also the assumption that any doctrine that is not supported by (or founded upon) scripture is of the devil

For the "eleventy - million'th" time, I'm not espousing a "doctrine". Determining whether something REALLY HAPPENED or not (i.e. "miracles") is not a doctrine - it's appeal to sanity. Miracles (biblically) are supposed to be the PROOF of God's involvment in something. A "sign" (as in "signs and wonders) is NOT a sign, if the sign does not, or will not, lend itself to investigation.

"It is the last gasp of a discredited and disproven position to deny that the tools of evidence and reason have a role to play" (Chris Ho-Stuart)

[quote:47443]Was he talking about theology, software (http://sky.fit.qut.edu.au/~hostuart/), or the evolution of the Bombardier Beetle (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/feb00.html)? I'm sure we could find numerous sources for both sides of the issue. But then, my understanding of God's Word comes from the Holy Spirit. What does Ho-Stuart have to say about that?

Probably (in accordance with the inherent logic of his quote) "where is the evidence that your understanding comes from the Holy Spirit, when there are many others who do not agree with you and they also claim their understanding comes from the Holy Spirit?"

It bothers me that you would rely on an evolutionist to support your position in a Christian Theological forum. This shows just how far from God's Word that you have strayed

I don't even know who he is - I just know the quote is pretty brilliant. I have seen many Christians in debate with evolutionists (for example) on Christian Forums who will point out that there is NO EVIDENCE, in many areas, to prove that evolution has occurred. Whether or not they are correct, are they (the Christians) wrong or foolish for pointing out what they believe is a lack of evidence for something?

Is the reason you desire a more "theological" type debate because you think you can discreetly BEGIN with the assumption that since the bible says "signs and wonders will follow", ANYONE who claims genuine signs and wonders today should be believed without question? If so, that is a false assumption.

I desire a theological type debate because this is a theological forum. Common sense tells me that a theological forum is for theological discussion. I guess I was wrong to rely on common sense

You're not using common sense, you're trying to get me to agree to a premise whereby, because a topic is religious, it's claims should not be put to the same test as everything else that claims to be real. I don't accept the premise. If something as extraordinary as a miracle has occurred, there should be evidence - otherwise anyone can claim anything. (which, remarkably enough, you don't seem to have a problem with, per your choice in the poll)

O.k., God tells us to prove all things, on this there is no debate ('cause the Work says so). The next question is, how do we prove all things? Does God ever give us a command without telling us how to accomplish it? No. So, what does the Bible say about proving?

"Test, examine, prove, SCRUTINIZE"

Scrutinize: To examine or observe with great care, INSPECT CRITICALLY (dictionary.com)

How quickly you abandon God's Word for worldly wisdom.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:21, the word prove is dokimazo in the original Greek (as you have already posted). Dokimazo is used 23 times in the New Testament and is translated to prove 10 times, try four times, approve three times, discern twice, allow twice, like once and examine once.

Verses for prove: Luke 14: 19; Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 8:8; 22; 13:5; Galatians 6:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 Timothy 3:10; and Hebrews 3:9. The only verse of these that gives us any direction as to how to prove all things is Romans 12:2,

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

So it's by the renewing of our minds that we prove all things. How are our minds renewed? By the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:23; Titus 3:5).

This doesn't have to do with determining whether or not a MIRACLE has occurred.

Verses for try: 1 Corinthians 3:13 (our works are tried by fire); 1 John 4:1 (try every spirit).

So, the Holy Spirit renews our minds that we may prove or try every spirit (I'm not seeing anything about man's wisdom yet).

Verses for approve: Romans 2:18; 1 Corinthians 16:3; and Philippians 1:10. All tell us what to approve, but not how.

Verses for discern: Actually, dokimazo is translated to discern twice in Luke 12:56. Still talking about what and not how.

Verses for allow: Romans 14:22 and 1 Thessalonians 2:4, which says that it is God who allows or proves someone for a ministry.

Verse for like: Romans 1:28, the consequences of not acknowledging God in your reasoning.

Verse for examine: 1 Corinthians 11:28, examine yourself, not others.

Now, have I overlooked anything in scripture pertaining to how we are to prove all things?

[/quote:47443]

Yes you have - none of this applies to evaluating the occurence of miracles. The Pharisees (CORRECTLY) had to admit that Jesus was doing real miracles, right? What kind of "spiritual discernment" did THEY have? The discernment you appeal to would only apply to determining the SOURCE of a miracle, not whether something supernatural HAPPENED OR NOT. That is a matter of cold, hard facts (evidence) or the lack of.

Why do you have a hard time understanding so simple a point?

FACTS have nothing to fear from honest investigation - "falsehoods" DO.

 

[DivineNames]

So, why do we have polls in this forum if they don't mean anything?

Is that supposed to be an argument that the poll is reliable?

 

[DivineNames]

Once again let me state that one of my reasons for this poll is for me to understand how my position relates to other Christians. This is not market research, or political projections. It's for me. So back off with the, "...you gotta have this, and that, and you really should...".

In fact, your not telling the truth here. Let me quote you-

"You state that your position is not extremist which is exactly contrary to the results of this poll. You want evidence but you refuse to look at it."

You cited the poll as evidence. Its for this very reason that I picked you up on the point. If you are now admitting that it isn't evidence, then fine.

 

[DivineNames]

Second problem. How do you know it's a random selection?

Because I chose it at random.

:roll:

 

[kwag_myers]

In fact, your not telling the truth here. Let me quote you-

"You state that your position is not extremist which is exactly contrary to the results of this poll. You want evidence but you refuse to look at it."

You cited the poll as evidence. Its for this very reason that I picked you up on the point. If you are now admitting that it isn't evidence, then fine.

You didn't answer my question. Why do we have polls in this forum?

 

[kwag_myers]

none of this applies to evaluating the occurence of miracles.

So 1 Thessalonians 5:21 has nothing to do with determining if a miracle really was a miracle. Then why did you post it?

You and DivineNames are two of a kind.

Give me evidence!

Kwag, "Here, how about this?"

No, that doesn't count. Give me evidence!

Kwag, "There, how about that?"

No, that doesn't count. Give me evidence!

Kwag, "Here's what the Bible says."

No, that doesn't count. Who cares about the Bible, it has nothing to do with this discussion. Give me evidence!

The fact that you won't accept what the Bible says tells me that this is a fruitless discussion. You put your faith in worldly things and then you say, "I'm not espousing a doctrine". Blinded by unbelief, and too proud to give it to the Lord.

 

[DivineNames]

Sorry, I misunderstood. Sure, anyone can claim spiritual discernment. But that doesn't change scripture, or excuse or use of human reasoning in spiritual matters.

Are you saying that reasoning shouldn't be used in spiritual matters?


You know, in Advaita Vedanta, they believe that the Self is identical with Brahman. The spiritual experience of "oneness" with Brahman is not merely unquestioningly accepted however, they have a philosophy intended to support and prove its truth. I can't see anything wrong with that approach.

 

[DivineNames]

You didn't answer my question. Why do we have polls in this forum?

For fun?

That is really a question for the person who designed the site.

 

[DivineNames]

If it comes down to faith in scripture, then which scripture? the Bible? the Quran? the Veda's?

What do we have faith in?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

none of this applies to evaluating the occurence of miracles.

So 1 Thessalonians 5:21 has nothing to do with determining if a miracle really was a miracle. Then why did you post it?

EXCEPT for that one (which should be understood because that was the one I cited)

[quote:ce7e7]You and DivineNames are two of a kind.

Give me evidence!

Kwag, "Here, how about this?"

No, that doesn't count. Give me evidence!

Kwag, "There, how about that?"

No, that doesn't count. Give me evidence!

Kwag, "Here's what the Bible says."

No, that doesn't count. Who cares about the Bible, it has nothing to do with this discussion. Give me evidence!

The fact that you won't accept what the Bible says tells me that this is a fruitless discussion. You put your faith in worldly things and then you say, "I'm not espousing a doctrine". Blinded by unbelief, and too proud to give it to the Lord.

[/quote:ce7e7]

I really don't think I need to apologize for desiring some evidence when people say they see the "same miracles as in the gospels everyday" or that they do "greater works than Jesus". Why do you find this so unreasonable and/or treacherous? Why don't you pay a visit to a local hospital's "psyche ward" and tell them what you're telling us? I'll bet you'll find dozens of "tenants" there with the same claims. And if you ask them for evidence what do you think you'd get? Probably bible quotes instead of miracles.

 

[kwag_myers]

I really don't think I need to apologize for desiring some evidence when people say they see the "same miracles as in the gospels everyday" or that they do "greater works than Jesus". Why do you find this so unreasonable and/or treacherous? Why don't you pay a visit to a local hospital's "psyche ward" and tell them what you're telling us? I'll bet you'll find dozens of "tenants" there with the same claims. And if you ask them for evidence what do you think you'd get? Probably bible quotes instead of miracles.

Brad, this all started when I shared my testimony and you tried to tell me that it wasn't God. "In all thy ways acknowledge Him..."

And you've been trying to discredit me ever since. Now you suggest that I belong in a psyche ward. That's just plain mean. You really are an evil person. Spiteful, uncaring, argumentative. Who needs you, and why do I need to prove anything to you? You do nothing to promote the Kingdom of God and are, in my opinion, a waste of time.

Titus 3:9-10; "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I really don't think I need to apologize for desiring some evidence when people say they see the "same miracles as in the gospels everyday" or that they do "greater works than Jesus". Why do you find this so unreasonable and/or treacherous? Why don't you pay a visit to a local hospital's "psyche ward" and tell them what you're telling us? I'll bet you'll find dozens of "tenants" there with the same claims. And if you ask them for evidence what do you think you'd get? Probably bible quotes instead of miracles.

Brad, this all started when I shared my testimony and you tried to tell me that it wasn't God. "In all thy ways acknowledge Him..."

And you've been trying to discredit me ever since. Now you suggest that I belong in a psyche ward. That's just plain mean. You really are an evil person. Spiteful, uncaring, argumentative. Who needs you, and why do I need to prove anything to you? You do nothing to promote the Kingdom of God and are, in my opinion, a waste of time.

Titus 3:9-10; "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

Does this mean we're not going to hear about the "calling down fire from heaven" episode?