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Moral beliefs

Do moral values exist solely because of God?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 83.3%

  • No

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • Total voters
    18
ObjMoVa - I have yet to be shown compelling evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

That is another discussion. I will just add that the very same evidence, data, and facts one uses to interpret a naturalistic conclusion, can support a Biblical conclusion.

I'm often told to prove that God does not exist..

In the same way that it is not possible to prove that God does exist however we are capable of reasoning from the evidence. People simply come to various conclusions...
 
Well we can test the red sky theory. Sailors saw a red sky in the morning. On days with red skies, storms often followed. This didn't just happen once, it happens over and over and the results are consistent. (somewhat, this is a very dated meteorological technique). This is falsifiable as well, we could wait for a day with a red sky in the morning and check if it rains.

I have a theory that if i drop a ball it will fall from the ground. I can test this by dropping the ball to see if it falls.

You can't provide a testable, falsifiable experiment to prove the supernatural. At least not currently, who knows what science will teach us in the future?
 
Can't falsify the bible, many have tried and many have failed and many have gone into the next world unprepared to receive their reward..

tob
 
I'm just asking for a claim that has the possibility to be falsified, like my ball dropping example. Falsifiable doesn't mean that it will be proven wrong, just that there is the potential to do so. The claim the ball will fall when it is dropped is falsifiable because you can drop it and see if it falls. If it doesn't fall then the theory is falsified.

This is getting away from the topic however. I will make a more appropriate thread for a stand alone discussion on evidence of the supernatural.
 
ObjMoVa said:
Falsifiable claims showing empirical evidence. I feel that there is no more evidence, real testable evidence not just anecdotes, for the existence of God [Yahweh] as there is for many many other gods.

I'm often told to prove that God does not exist, but this is trying to prove a negative which is impossible. The burden of proof in on those parties making the claims.
Click to expand...


You're right, there isn't. There's also nothing to prove His nonexistence.

So now what?
.
 
Here's an example from one that went to the next world unprepared..

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

tob
 
ObjMoVa said:
Falsifiable claims showing empirical evidence. I feel that there is no more evidence, real testable evidence not just anecdotes, for the existence of God [Yahweh] as there is for many many other gods.

I'm often told to prove that God does not exist, but this is trying to prove a negative which is impossible. The burden of proof in on those parties making the claims.
Click to expand...

Actually, you are wrong. It is not our job to prove anything. Where did you get that idea from? Whoever told you that is mighty confused and has little to no understanding of scripture. We don't control the Holy Spirit or you. That's between you and Him.
Our job is just to present the Gospel of Christ and do our best to answer questions. Only God can prove His exists to you but you have to seriously determine that it just might be true and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. It's all on you, not us.
 
Deborah13, those making the claim have to provide proof of that claim. If you want to believe in God that's fine, but when people of faith say that they know what is best for other people because they know the will of God, I feel that warrants some proof.

If my homosexual friend is told by a religious person that he cannot act or be that way because God said so, some proof has to be given. If it was entirely between God and the individual there wouldn't be homophobia, gay people could just come to their own conclusion. But Christians (and those of other faiths) often decide that other people come to the wrong conclusion based on nothing but their personal dogma.

When a Christian murders a Doctor who was going to perform an abortion, was that between the doctor and God individually?
 
If one does not believe the Christian way the beliefs of the Christians have no bearing on their thoughts.
The circle word games are nothing new they started in the Garden a long time ago.. If one does not believe in Heaven or hell my saying s/he will go there has zero value. Yes many things are sin, adultery is sin... My belief has no bearing on any person committing adultery... I am not compelled to prove my belief.
 
Reba, what about the example of the doctor I gave? This is not word play. Many gay people's lives are deeply, and irrevocably in some cases, affected because other people believe in a certain dogma. The fact that they cannot prove the reason behind this dogma, but still apply it to the lives of others, is why we nonbelievers are so concerned with these issues.
 
ObjMoVa said:
Reba, what about the example of the doctor I gave? This is not word play. Many gay people's lives are deeply, and irrevocably in some cases, affected because other people believe in a certain dogma. The fact that they cannot prove the reason behind this dogma, but still apply it to the lives of others, is why we nonbelievers are so concerned with these issues.
Click to expand...

Affected how? And what is the dogma you're referring to?
.
 
We really get into trouble when we reject God and his Son, the bible was given to us as an owners manual if you don't read it you'll lose your way, folks don't understand how things are supposed to work, and it ends up people start outsmarting themselves as we see in the book of Romans..

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

tob
 
All people live by the choices they make including gay people. Just as some people don't agree with such activity the same way some people don't like heavy metal music blasting at 3 in the morning. When we try to push our boundaries into other people space that mostly what causes trouble on all sides.

Digging
 
Hey guys when one member has been asked to drop the homosexual talk that means the rest of us also... ADMIN
 
That's fine everybody, the example of the abortion doctor works fine too. On May 31, 2009 an american physician named George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder because "preborn children's lives were in imminent danger" said Roeder.

Was the decision to believe in life at conception (a christian ideal) between George and God? No, people who believed religious ideals made the choice for George. I feel that actions such as these require some proof behind them.
 
ObjMoVa said:
when people of faith say that they know what is best for other people because they know the will of God, I feel that warrants some proof.
Click to expand...

A reasonable request. In fact God addresses that so as not to be confused with zeus,odin, etc:

"You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." Deut 18:22


There are scrolls dating back 300 years before Jesus was born. That read:

You have laid me in the dust and left me for dead.
16 My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs;
an evil gang closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and feet. Psalm 22

"it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins." Isaiah 53

There are 20,000 + documents from christian, jewish, and roman history that testify to Jesus crucifixion.


ObjMoVa said:
When a Christian murders a Doctor who was going to perform an abortion, was that between the doctor and God individually?
Click to expand...

That person was acting on their own accord, not in accord with the bible.
 
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