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Moral Nihilism and what it truly means.

modernnihilst said:
However Greece shared no such revulsions, most of the population owned slaves and those that didnt couldnt(not land owners). AND THIS TIME I CHECKED.
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I was disputing your claim that America (as a nation) saw nothing wrong with slavery. You might have a point about slavery in ancient Greece, but I don't know, because I HAVEN'T CHECKED. :)

It could be that slavery isn't an "absolute morality", on the basis that there have been different models of slavery throughout history. During the time of Christ, slavery existed, and He didn't Speak out against it, because it was much different than slavery as we know it. They were "debtors" to their owners, working off what they owed until they settled their debt and were freed. They were permitted to own land, come & go, have families and even outside jobs. So "slavery" in its broad sense wouldn't be inherently wrong. Slavery as it existed in the early 1800's was.
 
Mike said:
I was disputing your claim that America (as a nation) saw nothing wrong with slavery. You might have a point about slavery in ancient Greece, but I don't know, because I HAVEN'T CHECKED. :)

It could be that slavery isn't an "absolute morality", on the basis that there have been different models of slavery throughout history. During the time of Christ, slavery existed, and He didn't Speak out against it, because it was much different than slavery as we know it. They were "debtors" to their owners, working off what they owed until they settled their debt and were freed. They were permitted to own land, come & go, have families and even outside jobs. So "slavery" in its broad sense wouldn't be inherently wrong. Slavery as it existed in the early 1800's was.
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You do know in the colonial years "debt slavery" was a common thing right? And I wasnt using slavery as a morality(I gave up on that my head hurts) it was an example of right and wrong changing with society. However one could argue that slavery is slavery.


Wait I had to read that line "So "slavery" in its broad sense wouldn't be inherently wrong" again. Does this mean that the inherentness might be leaving your vocabularity? :)
 
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jasoncran said:
so you assign value to them friends when they have no real value if theres no real moral abirter reason besides your feelings

so by that reason war is good and the loss of the weak and poor for the benefit of man cant be really denied by thinkers such as yourself. you wouldnt say that but your position to deny that fact is weak if said fact was to be allowed to be the fact.
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I never clamed(nor will I) to be a decider of anothers perspective on what constitutes value of life. MY perspective of those lost is that they gave thier lives for something. Yet still is war a good thing....... depends on what you look at. If you look at the cost of life, one will probably find that no war is not good. However if one only looks at the advances made in science, medicine, and the like then yes war does have an up side. If looked at over all is the cost too high for the advances made..... I dont claim to have an answer.
 
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the difference with my jaded side i let god deal with that and dont ponder on it, until i want to or have a bad day.

if i let it take its course i would end my life as ultimately there is nor rhyme or reason to live for me if there is no God who is able to give meaning to this vanity.

and that is what i see coming from you. you say you arent a existantialist and yet your base of morality is based on what?

because of pain? if pain and that worked the death penalty would stop murders and also drug abuse as the addict dies from that and yet it doesnt.

i mean no offense but in reality what if we are honest as vets when these wars end have been accomplished you fought in iraq and i respect that and i in afghanistan but with a whip of the pen and a vote all that we did is gone.

we have left in iraq and look what has become of it? are we safer? cant say. cant say if we did stay.

hard questions that i have asked my self. i think of all that has gone on in afghanistan and what has happened and it seems it went way south since i left and alot of men died for that.

some of that is beyond our presidents control but well like the nam vets we honor them but i know from asking them they often feel that war is in vain.


i wonder if that will be the case with will be with us.

that is what im alluding to do, whats the point of this and im curious as a moral nilihist a how you deal with that.
 
its is hard,im being honest i have struggled with that and my question to god is why do men die for this vanity?

but GOD SUPPLIED WITH ME THIS answer, his peace has settle the matter.

i deny what i say earlier to my chain as i dont feel like hugging the secular shrink as they say find my own way.

only god can give me this answer.i have given it too him.
 
jasoncran said:
the difference with my jaded side i let god deal with that and dont ponder on it, until i want to or have a bad day.

if i let it take its course i would end my life as ultimately there is nor rhyme or reason to live for me if there is no God who is able to give meaning to this vanity.

and that is what i see coming from you. you say you arent a existantialist and yet your base of morality is based on what?

because of pain? if pain and that worked the death penalty would stop murders and also drug abuse as the addict dies from that and yet it doesnt.

i mean no offense but in reality what if we are honest as vets when these wars end have been accomplished you fought in iraq and i respect that and i in afghanistan but with a whip of the pen and a vote all that we did is gone.

we have left in iraq and look what has become of it? are we safer? cant say. cant say if we did stay.

hard questions that i have asked my self. i think of all that has gone on in afghanistan and what has happened and it seems it went way south since i left and alot of men died for that.

some of that is beyond our presidents control but well like the nam vets we honor them but i know from asking them they often feel that war is in vain.


i wonder if that will be the case with will be with us.

that is what im alluding to do, whats the point of this and im curious as a moral nilihist a how you deal with that.
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You are under the impression that I have morals. I dont.

You are correct about a whip of a pen and a vote. I cant argue that(nor will I). Man, and by extension thier actions, is only temporary.

The only thing I am certian of in the future is that you and I will eventually die and our bodies will decay, most likely before we get a satisfactory answer to the soldiers question of "Why?" Sometimes I wonder if humans killing each other is another constant in the universe.
 
:chin ok. hmm well then i will let the other deal with the i dont have morals statement.

hmm , i am curious how you will find purpose as ptsd isnt so easily ignored. i am over that but i dare not think that i havent been changed by war.
 
jasoncran said:
:chin ok. hmm well then i will let the other deal with the i dont have morals statement.

hmm , i am curious how you will find purpose as ptsd isnt so easily ignored. i am over that but i dare not think that i havent been changed by war.
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Purpose of war? For those that fight in them I would venture that there isnt one. At least there wasnt for me, I just did what I was ordered. For society? One could use the tired line of "bringing freedom to the downtroden". But even back then that failed to answer the question of why.

Who knows, cause I for one sure dont.
 
i meant purpose in life after the fact. given what we you have told me in private we can if you wish move on.

yes at times i do wonder whats the point in afghanistan and why we are there and what are we doing this for.

we have taken out osama and weakened al-queda.
 
jasoncran said:
i meant purpose in life after the fact. given what we you have told me in private we can if you wish move on.

yes at times i do wonder whats the point in afghanistan and why we are there and what are we doing this for.

we have taken out osama and weakened al-queda.
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After the fact as in afterlife? Or after the war?
 
how you deal with the nightmares, the anger, the feeling out of place. the depression and also the flashbacks and when that fades you often wonder where your buddies that didnt make it would be( with all senstivity)

most of my unit made it the first time we lost more from suicides then i care to imagine. five with the last five years.
 
jasoncran said:
how you deal with the nightmares, the anger, the feeling out of place. the depression and also the flashbacks and when that fades you often wonder where your buddies that didnt make it would be( with all senstivity)

most of my unit made it the first time we lost more from suicides then i care to imagine. five with the last five years.
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My way was probably not the best way, in fact I'd bet on it. I got drunk and stayed that way for a while. Then I did what all soldiers must do at one time or another I picked myself up by the boot straps and got on with it, became a fighter got out all my rage and keep in touch with the only other survivor in my unit. 5 died in country, some transfered to another unit in Afigan and died there 2 suicides now its just me and the sniper(who is oddly enough becomming a priest).
I didnt have nightmares, But I'd assume that will fade over time. I still dont fit in at times to society, but thats thier problem not mine:thumbsup. Havent had a flashback so I dunno bout that.
 
hmm well i know beer wouldnt take that away

the first flashback i had was in a ww2 reenactment and it was the full deal and the longest and worst. all others after that pale in comparison.

i used to shake and quiver with the fireworks the first years after the fact.

the nightmares werent really that bad just reliving past missions or daily events in country.
 
jasoncran said:
hmm well i know beer wouldnt take that away

the first flashback i had was in a ww2 reenactment and it was the full deal and the longest and worst. all others after that pale in comparison.

i used to shake and quiver with the fireworks the first years after the fact.

the nightmares werent really that bad just reliving past missions or daily events in country.
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For me what helped was taking out the destructive urges out on something(why I dont drink so hard anymore). To this day I still have a heavy bag out in my shed(also sound proofed) I can swing and yell all I want and just leave it all in there. I dont need to use that shed for the same reasons anymore, just when I get too frustrated at the world.
 
So, I guess our conversation is over, MN. I guess I'll let you two talk about PTSD.

Thanks for a good discussion!
 
modernnihilst said:
You are, I beleive life does not AUTOMATICALLY have value. One must do something with it. Using my crystal ball I see the next question going to be asked, "who determines the value?" The answer is anyone can determine value for themselves. It's not my job(nor is it my place) to tell people what they must do for thier life to be worth while.
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Objective as in, life absolutely is sacred. There is nothing subjective that "determines" it's value.

I'm going to reuse an example I've previously used(because its a really good one). My fiance's engagement ring used to belong to my grandmother. To me its value far exceeds just its worth as a ring. Would you automatically pay what I believe the ring to be worth or would you want to pay the price as determined by fair market value?
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Human beings are not mere objects, such as sentimental jewelry.

You still haven't answered my question: How can you objectively say that anything the Nazi's did was "good" or "bad", if morality is subjective.
 
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