All true, but irrelevant. The couch is still playing a role in destruction, yes?
And what if a live person is grabbed and thrown? Is he playing a role in his own getting thrown?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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More potential arguments vs the Bible
- Thread starter KV-44-v1
- Start date
And what if a live person is grabbed and thrown? Is he playing a role in his own getting thrown?
I wouldn't say we can grant ourselves salvation, but salvation is conditional, yes.
So you admit that "playing a role in our salvation" does not mean that we save ourselves - Jesus does.
You can have arguments about the Bible, but you can't have arguments about God. He exists either way. What we argue or don't has Zero impact on who God is.
The atheists are so lost.
The big picture is, it's shown in the story of Eden that Adem fell due to 1) lack of faith in God, and 2) lack obedience. Obedience is assessed by means of Law, which humans are doomed to fail. Faith is required by humans to live with God because relatively humans are made to be with low ability and low intelligent. They don't fully understand God's creation, such as why the 2 Trees in the garden of Eden. That's why we need faith in God as we lack the ability to fully understand the design and purposes of God's creations. Angels on the other hand, are creatures of high ability and high intelligence as their very existence is to participate in God's works of various creations, perhaps that's why the fallen angels are specialized in exploiting God's creations.
If by the judgment of Law one is dead, there wouldn't be forgiveness. Forgiveness is a grace outside of Law, it belongs the scope of covenants and only applicable to humans. To simply put, forgiveness doesn't belong to Law but as a grace which can only be found in covenants, while covenants are only applicable to humans. Good deeds are also a comparison against Law. A good deed is a work of Law, and subsequently a reflection of one's obedience (i.e., you choose to do what Law defines as good). Accepting forgiveness or repenting belongs to the scope of covenant and grace, instead of Law. It won't be considered as a "work of Law". To put it another way, repentance as a pre-requisite for forgiveness belongs to faith (grace) instead of Law/good deeds. Conceptually speaking, there's no forgiveness granted if one refuses to repent.
Our salvation is already the "best way", or else you may ask atheists to offer a way they think that it is better. There's no better way out there. The core of salvation is basiscally a faith in the testimony of human kind about God. God has a direct contact with His chosen eyewitnesses and for them to write down a testimony for the rest of human kind to believe with faith. That's the core of salvation. Humans on the other hand are with low capability and low intelligence, a testimony is valid when it's made the best human capability and effort. There's no anther human book is with better human effort and resources put forward. It's already the best humans (basically the Jews for OT and Christians for NT) can do, and is conveyed in the best human way. In the end, it's a human account of testimony and not a God's account of testimony. It's validity is finally determined by the court of Heaven on the Judgment Day. To make is simpler for the atheists, if they think that the Bible is not the best, they can provide a human history book written 2000 ago which can be deemed better in terms of human effort and capability, especially from a comparable ethnicity as small and unimportant as Israel.
As for the number of humans saved, it's mathematical. It follows mathematical laws to work. God won't work against mathematical laws for "more humans" to be saved. The atheists better learn what Statistics and Probabilites is, especially on what Expected Outcome and Normal Distribution are. The mathematical expected outcome with the assumption of a normal distribution will point to a salvation through the narrow gate! "Wishing all be saved" represents a shear probability in terms of a human behavior distribution. God speaks in mathematics when it is said that "humans are saved through the narrow gate" and "wish all humans are saved"!
The big picture is, it's shown in the story of Eden that Adem fell due to 1) lack of faith in God, and 2) lack obedience. Obedience is assessed by means of Law, which humans are doomed to fail. Faith is required by humans to live with God because relatively humans are made to be with low ability and low intelligent. They don't fully understand God's creation, such as why the 2 Trees in the garden of Eden. That's why we need faith in God as we lack the ability to fully understand the design and purposes of God's creations. Angels on the other hand, are creatures of high ability and high intelligence as their very existence is to participate in God's works of various creations, perhaps that's why the fallen angels are specialized in exploiting God's creations.
If by the judgment of Law one is dead, there wouldn't be forgiveness. Forgiveness is a grace outside of Law, it belongs the scope of covenants and only applicable to humans. To simply put, forgiveness doesn't belong to Law but as a grace which can only be found in covenants, while covenants are only applicable to humans. Good deeds are also a comparison against Law. A good deed is a work of Law, and subsequently a reflection of one's obedience (i.e., you choose to do what Law defines as good). Accepting forgiveness or repenting belongs to the scope of covenant and grace, instead of Law. It won't be considered as a "work of Law". To put it another way, repentance as a pre-requisite for forgiveness belongs to faith (grace) instead of Law/good deeds. Conceptually speaking, there's no forgiveness granted if one refuses to repent.
Our salvation is already the "best way", or else you may ask atheists to offer a way they think that it is better. There's no better way out there. The core of salvation is basiscally a faith in the testimony of human kind about God. God has a direct contact with His chosen eyewitnesses and for them to write down a testimony for the rest of human kind to believe with faith. That's the core of salvation. Humans on the other hand are with low capability and low intelligence, a testimony is valid when it's made the best human capability and effort. There's no anther human book is with better human effort and resources put forward. It's already the best humans (basically the Jews for OT and Christians for NT) can do, and is conveyed in the best human way. In the end, it's a human account of testimony and not a God's account of testimony. It's validity is finally determined by the court of Heaven on the Judgment Day. To make is simpler for the atheists, if they think that the Bible is not the best, they can provide a human history book written 2000 ago which can be deemed better in terms of human effort and capability, especially from a comparable ethnicity as small and unimportant as Israel.
As for the number of humans saved, it's mathematical. It follows mathematical laws to work. God won't work against mathematical laws for "more humans" to be saved. The atheists better learn what Statistics and Probabilites is, especially on what Expected Outcome and Normal Distribution are. The mathematical expected outcome with the assumption of a normal distribution will point to a salvation through the narrow gate! "Wishing all be saved" represents a shear probability in terms of a human behavior distribution. God speaks in mathematics when it is said that "humans are saved through the narrow gate" and "wish all humans are saved"!
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Enlightenedtruth
Member
I know very little about atheists.....but believe most simply want "proof" that God does exist.....
The Bible as we know it today wasn't actually written 2000 years ago......Luke did not live in the time of Jesus as one example......
What if the Bible is flawed....from what men have done with it? I asked a question in another thread.....and I would like to ask it of you....
Do you believe God is smart enough to get His Message across....without the need to repeat Himself over and over again? If God said what He needed to say in the Book of Matthew......then why would He instruct the "Holy Spirit" to guide Luke, Mark and John to write of the same material/events again.....specifically the prophecy of what is to come?
There is truth in that Bible....but there are also changes that were made by men.....men who simply wanted to control the people.....whatever names they gave to the various Books of the Bible
Most people could not read, write or speak Latin when that Bible was first assembled....only those with wealth and power could afford to hire a scribe to write.....and during the time of the Romans, those men simply wanted more power.....obey the Church, or burn in Hell for all eternity
2,000 is an estimate.
Nope. God protects His Word. Details and facts are preserved. The most error we have in Bibles like NASB 1995 is punctuation, wording, and other 'minor' stuff. No facts or messages have been altered.
To believe that a great portion of Bibles throughout the world are significantly deviant from what God wanted us to know - is basically believing that humans are more powerful than God's Word! Or cast doubt on His Character!
Beliving "the Bible been changed!!!" is a hallmark of CULTS (jw, mormon for ex.) and is remniscient of the SERPENT "Has God said?" lie. Genesis 3:1
Satan wants us to BELIEEEEVE that the Bible has been "changed" so he can offer his replacement "truth" which is not truth but deception.
Do you REALLY believe God is so weak He can't preserve His Word? Do you believe God is so apathetic that He won't? He suffered on a Cross out of love for us so why would He suddenly let His Word be significantly altered?
WHAT "changes", specifically? and how do you know they were "placed there by men"?? You just made that up.
Satan loves to control the info. That's why he wants us to not trust the Bible and trust some made up "from memory" source. Please do not fall for his lies Enlightenedtruth .
Why does following/applying the Bible result in a Godly, good life, in this one and the next?? If men changed it that would not happen.
So? God is not limited by man's capabilities. See, there you go implying either God is so limited or that He is apathetic to us.
Follow the logical conclusion of your fake "Bible change" theology and see where it leads. Hint: Nowhere good.
The Bible says to obey God. Not "obey Christians".
Are you implying sinners' destiny isn't the lake of fire?
verse? why not?
Humans have freewill because of a soul. Souls are not physical, so we can conclude our choosing isn't tightly bound by math like the physical world/universe is.
Trying to apply physical constraints to how many will be saved is an absolute NON SEQUITUR.
Enlightenedtruth
Member
I do not want to "nit pick" the Bible.....But one thing I will say for absolute certain is what is "written" about the antiChrist is false......that man is the Instrument of God's Wrath upon this earth......and he is going to wake up angry......I can say this for certain, because I was there in 1971 when as a child he was "prepared" to Serve God's Purpose......the antiChrist will destroy the armies that stand before him, he has no interest or need of "followers"......those who bear his Mark, are Marked for Death.....and he hath come
Satan has absolutely no power, unless God gives it to him......but any Christian who wants to believe there is more than one God, has the "God given right" to do so (free will)......why would God ever release any "creature" upon this earth who had "power" equal to His own? Do you believe there is any living thing that God Created....that could challenge Him, interfere with His Work's or in any way hinder what He is up to here on this earth?
God allowed man to tamper with 'His Word" in that Bible....because it does serve His Purpose......God gave each and everyone one of us a "mind" with the ability to think and reason.....but the Bible tells you, that you must not think for yourself.....is it possible when Satan led his revolt, that he told those who followed him they must not think for themselves?
That would be like God saying, "I give you hands, but you must not use them to make anything".....really?
We must think, and know we will be held responsible for every decision......and every individual who makes a bad decision will not be able to blame it on anything or anyone else.....God will not accept any more excuses
What is "written" in that Bible is not the whole story
So trust your own authority over the Bible's. Riiight. Trust your new "they changed the Bible" authroity over "Not one jot or tittle shall pass".
If we cannot solidly trust the Bible then what do we believe? Whatever anyone says? If there is no sure foundation, there are only unsure foundations. Your doctrine results in chaos, confusion, and endless uncertainly.
What you believe is indefensible. The Truth is defensible. Therefore, what you believe is not true.
Exactly what the antiChrist or his minions would say. What a big surprise. NOT.
Please tell me why i should think what the Bible says about the AC is false. Besides the stuff you've already asserted, that is.
There's more ways that man can do that role. Absolutely no need to believe the Serpent's Lie. How do you know for sure that you aren't one of those very instruments yourself?
Did He ever sleep? or is this metaphor
Say what? God 'waking up angry', or.... ??
He who?
But you said what was written about the AC was false.
So which is it, person who trusts a random madeup belief instead of the Bible, the Book which is always proven right??
You belieeeve the Bible was changed. How do you know that man didnt rewrite it to control people to only worship one God??
"Let's be unbound by God's Word, let us question God's Word and rely on our
That's literally what your "Bible change" idea amounts to. Please please please show me how it isn't.
Verse? May as well say "Jesus said that an angel ate 5,000 frogs for dinner, men just edited that out" and that claim would have the same weight as yours.
Please do tell me what the "original" was and the "edit" was. If you forgot it musta not been important enough for you to remember.... or it's simply false!!
Every "the Bible changed" person I ever met has completely failed to show that belief to be true. Same with you.
You'd expect the truth to be strong and defensible. Do you really think truth is so weak?
Again, verse needed. What would that 'purpose' be? To entertain Himself? God is not the cruel tyrant your idea implies He is.
No verse given, plus that is WRONG. You are the one blindly beliving the Bible Change serpent lie, "Has God said".
Mark 12:28-29
28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’
COMMAND. FOREMOST. ALL YOUR MIND. That implies using your fullest mental capabilities. That implies thinking for self!
Please do tell me why humans would oh so conveniently leave these verses out. I bet you didn't read the whole Bible, only a few portions. Ask yourself, do you spend more time on your beliefs or reading the Bible??? Hmmmmmm??
Just because we can't do a lot of things doesn't mean we can't do anything at all. I can use your silly argument to ""prove"" that we can be Omnipotent, too.
Christian: "Humans arent omnipotent!"
Athiest: "So you mean humans can't do anything?"
That is a serious claim. Got any serious backup? What is it?
Accept the challenge, and the truth will stand tall in the end. Refuse it, and show everyone that your belief is lacking, in courage & ability, and not just in truth value.
Enlightenedtruth
Member
Wow....and wow......I'm sorry I cannot give you the proof that you demand......and when the proof does come, I do hope you can see it for what it is......
I in no way meant to imply anyone should abandon that Bible......there is truth in it......it's just not the whole truth.....and if you want to believe Satan or some "demon" is making me remember things that are false, I'm ok with that......but there is no such thing as "demons" and Satan has no power......again, the proof is coming soon....all you have to do is watch what happens here in America with this election nonsense, and pay attention to what Israel is up to......the stock market will crash, the dollar bill will become worthless.....then the 7 heads will make their move.....and it will be on
I do apologize for offending you, that was not my intent
Enlightened you are obviously in the dark.
Jesus dealt with demons.
Demons are the earth bound spirits of the drowned Nephilim and hybrids from before the flood.
My favorite argument from atheists is this one: "How can I believe, when there are people in remote parts of the world who might never hear the Gospel? God is going to send them to hell for not believing when they never had a chance? I simply cannot believe in a God like that. That is evil."
My favorite answer: "Have YOU had a chance to hear the Gospel?" Reply: "Well, yes I have but...." Me: "It appears that God is not being evil towards you right? He is giving you the chance to be saved. Why are you USING the argument that others MIGHT NOT be saved as an excuse for YOU not to believe the Gospel and be saved yourself?"
There are people who won't/don't/can't/haven't heard or know of a nonbeliver's idea(s), but does that make their ideas false? Hmmm.
The proof that the Bible is preserved unlike any other Book, that it has not been 'changed by men' will come! Well, Actually it's all around NOW. TODAY. Why be "wishy washy"?
So why should we blindly wait? God's Word says to "give a defense". Oh wait, you probably believe that was put in by men. LOL.
You have no idea what parts of the Bible to trust because you operate on your "Bible change" teaching that comes from I don't know where. For all I know your parents passed it down to you and you blindly believe it, even though all the facts are stacked against that teaching.
Whatever happened to 'think for urself'????
There's proof that the Bible has been amazingly preserved. The evidence that God's Word is something to doubt and disbelieve will never come because the Bible has been proven true time and again. No claim can contradict God's Word and succeed. That proves men made zero corruptions to the Bible, unlike you think.
So please do tell me why we should wait in vain for an imaginary "proof" to stumble upon us. It's like a scammer saying "Oh, trust us, you'll get 10x money you gave to us. Just keep giving to us for 50 more years!" And then you either die before the scammer's timeline elapses - and so he keeps your money- or he pulls the scam early and laughs at you. Either way he has the money as long as you believe the scam.
But if you report his scam, call the police, he will stop taking your money. You can get it back.
If you trust God's Word fully like God wants you to, then the Serpent Lie will no longer work on you. You'll finally have wisdom, answers, logic. You'll have a working relationship with God if you follow the Bible's commands and wisdom, accept God's Gifts of faith and salvation , submit to God, instead of being baselessly scared of made up "corruptions".
I hope you can see that you have been scammed.
The Bible says that the truth will set you free. Or do you also doubt that?
Nope.
If it is not wholly Truth then how can it be the Word of God? How can anyone know for sure which parts are true and which are not? Why do you assume God would leave His people in the dark scrounging for answers? Indeed, the Bible has all we need. Man is not more powerful than God.
Hebrews 4:12
Humans would want to edit out the parts that convict them. Humans have a sin nature so human edits would undoubtedly make the Bible be 'less powerful'.
2 Timothy 3:16
"16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness;"
Your new belief obviously makes WAR with this basic fact. Admit it, your teaching inevitably says, "God is suspicious or weak". The only argument you have is "oh it will come", just like the vainly-hoped-for money that the scam victim believes will come.
Enlightenedtruth , if I used the same argument to convince you, how would you react? Please please tell me, WHY is YOUR "just wait" correct and NOT MINE??
Again, you imply that the truth is so weak and that people must wait for it.
Seems like you didn't wait for that belief, you believed it when you got it.
So if we have to wait an undetermined amount of time for the proof, why didn't you wait for proof of your "Bible change" belief?? Bro you didn't even follow your own advice there. Why didn't you wait for proof that we do have to wait? Your Bible-doubt belief has more holes in it than a worm-ridden apple. And I have demonstrated it.
Your claim 'just wait' is like hoping for "eventual proof" that the Moon does not orbit the earth, or that the internet does not exist, or that God "doesn't exist".
Tell me, how will you respond if an athiest tells you "Just wait, in the future, therell be evidence that God does not exist." Please please honestly tell me HOW WILL YOU RESPOND? Will you just shake your head at them and assume your beliefs to be true? Likely, and that is sad. By what standard do we decide whose vain hope is true, yours or the athiest's??
Again, you have cast off the Bible, GOD'S WORD (not mans!!) as your Highest Authority, leaving you with no standard, only vanity and straw-grasping.
How is claiming that ""the Bible is corrupted"" NOT disrespecting God? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
You have demonstrated a LACK of wisdom here, but I? I demonstrated powerful wisdom. Because my Highest Authority is GOD, i boast in GOD.
What a difference of the fruits of our worldviews. Really tells one that the God-trusting side is more powerful and respectful of God.
Not remember, but belive in blind faith.
Mark 12:28-29
28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’
You should, through simply even just logic, see that your "Bible-change" belief is FALSE on so many fronts.
Not using logic, falling on "oh just wait" is NOT using all your mind. It's intellectually lazy. You have never provided a remotely sufficient answer!
Tell me whether you doubt or believe these verses. I will wait.
So you are asserting that you are right and the Bible is wrong.
Tell me, why are there so many testimonies of demons? And so many about the person saying Jesus' Name and they go away??
Why are there stories, fantasies, and religions about demons? Why does the Bible show that they exist? A made up thing does not get this kind of coverage. THINK FOR YOURSELF. Don't let blind faith tell you to doubt the Bible.
Obviously a demon would want you to believe that they are fake. Sad how you fall so easily for unfounded assumptions.
Yes, I'm seeing the fruits (results) of doubting the Bible. People do NOT believe and follow the Bible and use its teaching in their life. So they go serving and doing sin instead.
You have no idea that the source your "Bible change" teaching came from is the same source of all these contra-Christianity contra-Bible beliefs floating around, like islam. The sinful human heart and/or demon doctrines.
So you cherry pick what you wish to believe or disbelieve starting with the unBiblical and wrong ASSUMPTION that "men corrupted it".
"men corrupted it" : one of the same excuses muslims use to try and justify disbelieving the Bible.
You have offended nobody.
If what you say is true, there is no need to apologize.
If you are so confident in your beliefs, why would you back away? Please find the courage to admit you are wrong, it is OK to admit you were wrong.
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Jesus loves you.
Say there are 15 people drowning. They are spread out over a big area. You are one of them. You look up and someone has thrown you a life-saver. But you refuse to use it because you aren't sure everyone else has gotten one too. Some atheists actually use that kind of argument. They refuse salvation themselves because they view God as evil for possibly not saving ALL. Extremely stupid argument.
There are people who won't/don't/can't/haven't heard or know of a nonbeliver's idea(s), but does that make their ideas false? Hmmm.