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More potential arguments vs the Bible

There is no such a way, you don't accept God,
Is God limited by what there is "none of"? He's omnipotent, so He can easily make such a way.

Why didn't God use a way where we "get saved" with no force but also no need for willful acceptance of the Gift?

Hawkins has a much more fulfilling answer and not nonsequiturs. I'm interested on how you as an individual would answer.

you automatically accept the devil,
Why wouldn't God "rig it up" so that we get saved with no force but also no need for willful acceptance of the Gift?
and the enemy would be resisted more, salvation would be easier ?
 
Is God limited by what there is "none of"? He's omnipotent, so He can easily make such a way.

Why didn't God use a way where we "get saved" with no force but also no need for willful acceptance of the Gift?
Yes, but unlike Satan, he didn't wanna force, trick, manipulate or lure anybody into salvation. He sure can make such a way, but he didn't. I wonder what's your opinion on infant baptism, that sure looks like receiving of the "gift without willful acceptance", so according to you every baby should be saved, but most people agree that it's just a ritual.
Why wouldn't God "rig it up" so that we get saved with no force but also no need for willful acceptance of the Gift?
and the enemy would be resisted more, salvation would be easier ?
God is not man, don't think of him as a man. He doesn't rig his own game as he doesn't stoop to Satan's level. The only nonsequitur is your ridiculous "scenario".
 
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Yes, but unlike Satan, he didn't wanna force, trick, manipulate or lure anybody into salvation. He sure can make such a way, but he didn't.
No, none of that stuff.

You are assuming there's only two options.

But why don't you just get the Gospel, with no decisions made, but you aren't forced to either?

How it is: You have to accept the gift.
Force: God mindcontrols you to accept it or makes you with only the ability to accept it.

My scenario: God "drops" the Gift "in your lap" and you get saved.

Or like as if a door opens underneath someone and they fall a short distance onto a cloud below, and get saved.


I wonder what's your opinion on infant baptism, that sure looks receiving of the "gift without willful acceptance", so according to you every baby should be saved, but most people agree that it's just a ritual.
I don't think infant baptism works, from the framework the Bible outlines.

But why doesn't God have it be like that, either? Baby baptism = saved?

God is not man, don't think of him as a man. He doesn't rig his own game as a doesn't stoop to Satan's level.
The way I'm using it is a neutral way.
More like "set up", "implement", nothing malicious or anywhat sinful or sinister at all.
  1. To provide with a harness or equipment; fit out.
  2. To equip (a ship) with sails, shrouds, and yards.
  3. To fit (sails or shrouds, for example) to masts and yards.
  4. To dress, clothe, or adorn
 
No, none of that stuff.
Your scenario is fictional, it's your wishful thinking.
I don't think infant baptism works, from the framework the Bible outlines.

But why doesn't God have it be like that, either? Baby baptism = saved?
Since you agree that infant baptism doesn't work, you've already busted your own silly scenario where one can be saved accidentally and surprisingly without consent.
The way I'm using it is a neutral way.
More like "set up", "implement", nothing malicious or anywhat sinful or sinister at all.
Why would you need salvation if there's nothing malicious or sinister at all? Don't you know that the healthy don't need a physician, but the sick do? Jesus didn't die for neutrality, he died for our sins, 1 Cor. 15:3.
 
Your scenario is fictional, it's your wishful thinking.
So you as an individual cannot answer, you don't know why, you simply state it is fictional.

Yes, I agree, it is, but that does not provide an anywhat decent answer to why God didn't make a different way.

Since you agree that infant baptism doesn't work, you've already busted your own silly scenario where one can be saved accidentally and surprisingly without consent.
I'm not busting anything because I'm not claiming it's real. The scenario is a scenario and....

it does not assume the current 'framework' for Salvation to be true.
Mabye you missed this part.

Why would you need salvation if there's nothing malicious or sinister at all? Don't you know that the healthy don't need a physician, but the sick do? Jesus didn't die for neutrality, he died for our sins, 1 Cor. 15:3.
You misunderstand. I'm saying that I'm not using "rig up" in malicious or sinister sense.

accidentally and surprisingly without consent.


Accidental: Occurring unexpectedly/unintentionally.
 
So you as an individual cannot answer, you don't know why, you simply state it is fictional.

Yes, I agree, it is, but that does not provide an anywhat decent answer to why God didn't make a different way.
If there's no such answer from the bible, neither can I provide any. The only way to God is Jesus, there ain't no any other way.
I'm not busting anything because I'm not claiming it's real. The scenario is a scenario and....

it does not assume the current 'framework' for Salvation to be true.
Mabye you missed this part.
Trust me, man, I've been fantasizing everyday, I even organized some of those into a few stories full of fictional scenarios, but reality always pulls me back to the ground.
You misunderstand. I'm saying that I'm not using "rig up" in malicious or sinister sense.
This phrase itself is laden with malicious or sinister intent, if you're not speaking in that sense, don't use it in the first place.
Accidental: Occurring unexpectedly/unintentionally.
Salvation doesn't work in that way. Every saved person has their name written in God's book of life, there's no such accidents. God does have a habit of choosing the most unlikely persons to speak and work for him such as Saul of Tarsus, that may seem like a surprise to us, but not to him.
 
if you're not speaking in that sense, don't use it in the first place.
Ok, good advice


Salvation doesn't work in that way. Every saved person has their name written in God's book of life, there's no such accidents. God does have a habit of choosing the most unlikely persons to speak and work for him such as Saul of Tarsus, that may seem like a surprise to us, but not to him.
The scenario does not assume the current 'framework' for Salvation to be true.

I even organized some of those into a few stories full of fictional scenarios, but reality always pulls me back to the ground.
So you will always miss that, in the scenario, the current framework would not apply?

In reality it applies.
In scenario it doesn't.


You cannot do what is described here?:
I think being able to stand back and examine your worldview is a good trait to have. And look at one's core assumptions, and be able to go, "What if <a belief i hold> wasn't this way?".
Simply asking.
 
Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"

I'm not sure in what way accepting a gift could be construed as "work"? If I accept, say, the work of my dentist in fixing my teeth, am I working to fix my teeth? No. I just lie in the dentist's chair and receive his teeth-fixing work. In the same way, by faith, I just receive the benefit of Christ's perfect, atoning work on the cross of Calvary to which I can contribute nothing. The saving work has all been done by Christ on my behalf. Accepting this work, then, doesn't save me, it doesn't do the work of salvation any more than having faith in my dentist and sitting in his dentist's chair will fix my teeth. If my dentist doesn't do his work on my teeth, no amount of believing he can and sitting in his chair will repair my molars, right?

"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "

What is the context of Paul's words? What difference, if any, does this context make to the conclusion that God has contradicted Himself in Scripture? I think the immediate context of Paul's words makes a very big difference, revealing that the above is merely an apparent contradiction rather than an actual one.

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"

Concerning Pharaoh, God merely encouraged a stubborn will in the direction it was already going, using that will to achieve His own ends. Long before he was hardened by God, Pharaoh had enslaved and abused the Hebrews for many years, killing their newborns, even, in a perverse attempt at population control. He wasn't some poor fellow God forced into a state of hardness that he would otherwise have never chosen for himself. Far from it.

God wants a love-relationship with us; coercing folks into becoming His children confounds such a relationship, so He doesn't do so. This means, however, that although God desires all people to be saved, He has given them the liberty not to love Him and be saved. It turns out, that many people love themselves more than God and so spurn His offer of redemption, adoption and fellowship with Himself. This isn't any more God's fault than it is the fault of the wood carver who makes a knife capable of carving wood that another person uses to pierce human flesh. There cannot be a knife capable of carving wood that cannot also cut human flesh but this doesn't make the wood carver who made the knife automatically desirous of the use of his tool as a weapon. In the same way, a man's abuse of his free agency to defy God and live evilly, doesn't reflect something about God, only the man.

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"

Being good, if God could have created a world where more people freely chose to know and love Him than have done in our world, He would have created that world. Instead, God created the one in which we exist, which means we occupy the one world out of all possible worlds God could have made, wherein the greatest number of people will freely choose to be saved. This also means that it isn't possible, in a world where people are able to freely choose to know and love God, to have a majority of people do so. If such a world were possible, God, being good, would have created it.

Is God obliged to cater to our ideas about what would, or would not, be better? Why would we think we understand what "better" is more fully than God does? We are finite, fallible and ignorant; God is all-knowing, perfect and timeless. There is no way, given these differences, that we can properly, reasonably prescribe to God what is "better." God is orchestrating events and working toward ends that are utterly obscure to us but that vitally affect what "better" ought to be. It is preposterous hubris, then, for any fallible, ignorant, finite creature to challenge their Creator as to what is "better," attempting to prescribe to Him His priorities and approach.

In God's economy of things, quality is more important than quantity. He wants us to interact with Him on the basis of love but this necessarily means that not all will choose to do so (see above). God simply cannot pursue both quality (love) and quantity (universal salvation). God's holiness and justice also preclude allowing the unrepentant, rebellious wicked into His holy kingdom and presence. They would not want to be with Him in any case. Certainly not for forever. Anyway, being the Creator and Sustainer of All, God is entirely within His rights to assert His priorities as He wishes, putting quality above quantity.
 
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I'm not sure in what way accepting a gift could be construed as "work"? If I accept, say, the work of my dentist in fixing my teeth, am I working to fix my teeth? No. I just lie in the dentist's chair and receive his teeth-fixing work. In the same way, by faith, I just receive the benefit of Christ's perfect, atoning work on the cross of Calvary to which I can contribute nothing. The saving work has all been done by Christ on my behalf. Accepting this work, then, doesn't save me, it doesn't do the work of salvation any more than having faith in my dentist and sitting in his dentist's chair will fix my teeth. If my dentist doesn't do his work on my teeth, no amount of believing he can and sitting in his chair will repair my molars, right?



What is the context of Paul's words? What difference, if any, does this context make to the conclusion that God has contradicted Himself in Scripture? I think the immediate context of Paul's words makes a very big difference, revealing that the above is merely an apparent contradiction rather than an actual one.



Concerning Pharaoh, God merely encouraged a stubborn will in the direction it was already going, using that will to achieve His own ends. Long before he was hardened by God, Pharaoh had enslaved and abused the Hebrews for many years, killing their newborns, even, in a perverse attempt at population control. He wasn't some poor fellow God forced into a state of hardness that he would otherwise have never chosen for himself. Far from it.

God wants a love-relationship with us; coercing folks into becoming His children confounds such a relationship, so He doesn't do so. This means, however, that although God desires all people to be saved, He has given them the liberty not to love Him and be saved. It turns out, that many people love themselves more than God and so spurn His offer of redemption, adoption and fellowship with Himself. This isn't any more God's fault than it is the fault of the wood carver who makes a knife capable of carving wood that another person uses to pierce human flesh. There cannot be a knife capable of carving wood that cannot also cut human flesh but this doesn't make the wood carver who made the knife automatically desirous of the use of his tool as a weapon. In the same way, a man's abuse of his free agency to defy God and live evilly, doesn't reflect something about God, only the man.



Being good, if God could have created a world where more people freely chose to know and love Him than have done in our world, He would have created that world. Instead, God created the one in which we exist, which means we occupy the one world out of all possible worlds God could have made, wherein the greatest number of people will freely choose to be saved. This also means that it isn't possible, in a world where people are able to freely choose to know and love God, to have a majority of people do so. If such a world were possible, God, being good, would have created it.

Is God obliged to cater to our ideas about what would, or would not, be better? Why would we think we understand what "better" is more fully than God does? We are finite, fallible and ignorant; God is all-knowing, perfect and timeless. There is no way, given these differences, that we can properly, reasonably prescribe to God what is "better." God is orchestrating events and working toward ends that are utterly obscure to us but that vitally affect what "better" ought to be. It is preposterous hubris, then, for any fallible, ignorant, finite creature to challenge their Creator as to what is "better," attempting to prescribe to Him His priorities and approach.

In God's economy of things, quality is more important than quantity. He wants us to interact with Him on the basis of love but this necessarily means that not all will choose to do so (see above). God simply cannot pursue both quality (love) and quantity (universal salvation). God's holiness and justice also preclude allowing the unrepentant, rebellious wicked into His holy kingdom and presence. They would not want to be with Him in any case. Certainly not for forever. Anyway, being the Creator and Sustainer of All, God is entirely within His rights to assert His priorities as He wishes, putting quality above quantity.
Awsome comment! Thanx :biggrin
 
You are now missing the fact the scenario I posited earlier was just that, a scenario. So you don't know how to sufficiently or relevantly answer it.
You don’t even know how to string a coherent statement, do you. If it’s “just a scenario”, it’s a hypothesis, then it’s not really a fact. Once again you’re contradicting yourself.
 
Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"
The Work of Faith is not the kind of "Work" that Paul spoke against. Paul spoke against Work that operated independent of God's Word. Faith is, by definition, operating according to God's Word, or in response to God's Word. Works are absolutely required of Faith, not the least of which is the Work of Repentance. Jesus said, "Repent and believe."
"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "
God Himself is not confused and doesn't speak in a confused way. When people try to operate independent of Him, they are trying to create a false picture of who God is. God has determined that only when things operate in His Will will they make clear moral sense. The problem with confusion is that men choose to operate in a way that by definition creates confusion. And yes, God has set the ground rules.
"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"
When men choose to operate outside of God's Word they place themselves in a place where God has to show them that what they're doing is wrong. They may be determined to do as they will, but in doing so, God causes them to pursue a stubborn path that leads to destruction. Opposing God's will leads to pride, and pride leads to destruction.
"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"
You are here creating a logical absurdity. Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it? These logical absurdities are designed to be impossible to solve, like the "Penrose stairs." They aren't real--they're an illusion, or an artificial construct.
 
Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"
Some of these aren't really arguments "against the Bible" but rather possible arguments against a doctrine. There are many doctrines about salvation, but most tend to remove something that was said out of the context and laser focus in on it while ignoring context.

Atheists may be just as confused about what the Bible says as those who are Christian and, when atheists hear bad ideas about what the Bible says, they repeat those things and believe that Christianity is what it is not. I have heard one too many arguments proposed by an atheist that resulted from the bad exegesis of a Christian who told them something or something they heard. Typically, giving them the truth will eventually (often sooner than later) silence the arguments because the truth in Scripture follows sound reason and logic.

For example, your first point seems to be what you would consider to be an argument against the Bible, but it isn't. God does reward the gift of eternal life to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality (Romans 2:7) which sensibly means the one who wants eternal life has to do work. An argument to the contrary will likely result in further alienating someone who won't reject what Romans 2:7 says. Debating with them further will likely cause them to see the Bible as a contradictory book and that gives them the justification in their heart and mind to reject the Bible.

"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "
Just need to dig into the language a bit more. I believe you're referring to 1 Cor. 14:33 and confusion isn't really the right idea. It's about a state of chaos to the point of things being out of control which, in itself, is confusion but our english word isn't as nuanced as this. A lot of Bible replace confusion with "disorder" to better capture the idea being conveyed.

Once that much is understood, the argument is disarmed.

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"
Technically the pharaoh already had a rather hard heart since he was overseeing the enslavement of a people and didn't even try to change it even though he had the legal power to do so. God didn't make pharaoh who he was. I think at this point the pharaoh was already ignoring all of the signs and miracles he was seeing and it seems God already passed judgement on him for his many sins.

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"

The salvation plan hasn't changed much aside from there being a single sin sacrifice. Prior to this, there were only temporary sin sacrifices. This misunderstanding about the single sin sacrifice is that people think that since there is just one sin sacrifice that they can sin as much as they want and the sin sacrifice covers them. The reality is people can lose access to the sin sacrifice. The New Covenant is better and was probably necessary since the temple ended up getting destroyed anyway. The Old Covenant with the temple sacrifices would be difficult to keep anymore.
 
God does reward the gift of eternal life to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality (Romans 2:7) which sensibly means the one who wants eternal life has to do work. An argument to the contrary will likely result in further alienating someone who won't reject what Romans 2:7 says.
So we can save ourselves, like in the pagan religions of old?????

How do you know for sure the perserverance is not a gift from God?

The motivation behind the work is because of the faith God given us.
 
So we can save ourselves, like in the pagan religions of old?????

How do you know for sure the perserverance is not a gift from God?

The motivation behind the work is because of the faith God given us.
You play a roll in your salvation, yes. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling... Phil. 2:12.

And Jesus said so.

John 6 (ESV)
28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
 
Mere techincality.

What if someone destroys a couch? That's like saying a couch plays a role in its destuction by existing.
Imagine a lifeless human body. It's incapable of sinning or not sinning. It is simply as neutral as a couch. It is the soul who sins that dies, but couches do not have a soul, yet we do.
 
You play a roll in your salvation, yes. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling... Phil. 2:12.

And Jesus said so.

John 6 (ESV)
28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
The reason they believed in him who God had sent is because he was the promised Messiah. The one in who Moses and the prophets did write. The anointed one of God. Whom God anointed with His Holy Spirit to be prophet, priest and king.
 
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