Must we suffer?

[jasoncran]

why does he mention that where there's gnashing of teeth and wailing and such like, if its done and overwith, in gehanna?

i' m curious you seem to be worried more about hell. odd not even bick has that.

 

[ORwarriOR]

why does he mention that where there's gnashing of teeth and wailing and such like, if its done and overwith, in gehanna?

i' m curious you seem to be worried more about hell. odd not even bick has that.

I didn't say it would be quick and painless. Not once, I said it would be a punishment anyone would want to avoid. Of course there would be crying and gnashing of the teeth. Who wants to die by burning to death? I'm not worried about hell. I believe I'm saved, and I'll live like Christ to make sure I pass my judgment on judgment day. But again like I said, I'm worried about EVERYONE ELSE, who I believe to be good people that just haven't come into the faith. Living like Christ includes loving non-believers and believers alike, friends and enemies, and since I love EVERYONE, I couldn't bear to see anyone suffer eternally. Take Ghandi for example. He was more like Christ than I'd say 99% of christians are today. I would HATE to see him suffer for an eternity. I wouldn't be able to enjoy heaven, if that one person suffered for an eternity, let alone the millions upon millions of others. If they have to have their souls snuffed out because they didn't believe in Christ then so be it, but at least that's fair and just, because they didn't want eternal life.

Like I said if Hell was eternal, I would GLADLY sacrifice my own eternity in paradise in exchange that nobody suffered for an eternity and simply had their souls put out. An eternity of happiness would equal an eternity of suffering (for everyone) since both couldn't be measured right?

 

[jasoncran]

again, will it make a difference to you if they arent there in heaven,. its still the same.

they choose an eternity without christ, and you didnt.

i dont like it, but i dont overconcern myself others fate upon death. as i dont really know who's in heaven or not. but i need to more concerned with my soul and its fate as that i can assured where it will be if i die.

 

[ORwarriOR]

again, will it make a difference to you if they arent there in heaven,. its still the same.

they choose an eternity without christ, and you didnt.

i dont like it, but i dont overconcern myself others fate upon death. as i dont really know who's in heaven or not. but i need to more concerned with my soul and its fate as that i can assured where it will be if i die.

I don't want to be rude but that's a very selfish outlook and it goes against the very nature of Christianity. I am not saying you're a selfish person, but your opinion on this matter is very selfish. Yes it will make a difference to me if they aren't in heaven and I knew they were suffering, how could it not make a difference?

Say for example you're eating breakfast and you see someone get hit by a car outside your window, do you think "well it's not in my house so it doesn't matter, I'm enjoying my breakfast he chose to walk across the street when the car was coming, I can't be bothered" or do you go outside and help them?

 

[jasoncran]

we cant do anything about them once they die! does our worrying change the facts.

we cant pray them into heaven, thus the need to warn them BEFORE death so that they have the oppurtunity to REPENT while alive.

that is what i mean. i have friends that may not have made to heaven, and its saddens me, but i'm not going to be down forever over that, do i miss them ,yes, but life goes on and i let god decide were they go.

if i tell you about the lord, and you die and refuse, you cant say the to lord i never knew. you made the choice. i did what i could to get you to heaven and eternal life.

i have prayed for the lost relatives i have my uncle died and grandpa died, and i dont know if they were saved , it saddens me to think they may not be in heaven, but theres nothing i can do to get them in heaven.

that said i am sensitive enough to realize that some are reeling from a loss, as i myself am. is this the case?

 

[ORwarriOR]

It doesn't matter if there's nothing you can do about it once it's done or not, but the concept of eternal hell is one that would haunt me for an eternity. It's something I could never get over. If we are supposed to be like Christ and the law is written in our hearts and in our minds, than I pray that you search deep within yourself, consider everything you've ever learned about God from scripture and ask yourself and the holy spirit if you think he would seriously torture someone for an eternity. And take into consideration all the evidence I've provided for you. Please. I beg you. I don't want this image of God to continue, it hurts his good name, and non-believers are less likely to come to the faith if they think we believe in a God who would torture people endlessly for all eternity. I was even almost reluctant to repent because that's what I had been taught before i had repented; and then I prayed to the holy spirit to grant me truth and wisdom, and I feel like I've been getting it.

Please just think about it. Do you think your God would have said he is a merciful God if he planned to torture people for an eternity if they didn't believe in him? No he holds everyone accountable for their sin and punishes them accordingly. Please, just pray about it, and ask for answers, and think about it with total honestly (everything I've said) and with disregard for everything you've been taught about it by the church.

From exodus 34
"The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty"

He won't clear the guilty, but he wont' torture them for an eternity either. That's not mercy.

Think about all the people in the world that died right after the death of Christ that never got a chance to hear the gospel. Did they get condemned too?

 

[jasoncran]

i disagree. odd since those that dont accept hell have been in the minority.

why is it that we assume that mens tradition have corrupted the bible?
is the trinity listed in the bible? by name, no


a person that doenst want to serve the lord wont. and will find any reason not to.
some churches never preach judgment, that to me is far worse then the doctrine of eternal damnation if its wrong.

again to where do you claim hell comes from the pagan roots, if so then maybe the trinity does as well.
the three in one idea is also in the some other ancient pagan religions.

people arent coming to christ mainly because of the fact that we christians dont live up the godly values.


in your posts you claim that light always prevails over darkness. that is a new age concept.

 

[ORwarriOR]

i disagree. odd since those that dont accept hell have been in the minority.

why is it that we assume that mens tradition have corrupted the bible?
is the trinity listed in the bible? by name, no


a person that doenst want to serve the lord wont. and will find any reason not to.
some churches never preach judgment, that to me is far worse then the doctrine of eternal damnation if its wrong.

again to where do you claim hell comes from the pagan roots, if so then maybe the trinity does as well.
the three in one idea is also in the some other ancient pagan religions.

people arent coming to christ mainly because of the fact that we christians dont live up the godly values.


in your posts you claim that light always prevails over darkness. that is a new age concept.

Light does always prevail. That's not a new age concept. You turn a light on in the darkness and it's not going to be dark anymore. Darkness cannot win over the light. Christ was the light this world needed, It's just not enough Christians are letting their light fully shine, and I believe a BIG part of that is because of this false doctrine. You simply say you disagree but you take no effort to prove yourself wrong. Whenever I don't fully understand something, or something doesn't seem right I take every effort to find out the truth, and I do so by praying and doing extensive research. By preaching about eternal fire we're just spreading flames of darkness.

Hell wasn't even a concept in the church until second century. Why is that early churches didn't hold this belief? Because we let it become corrupt.

By the second century, however, the church leaders, in their zeal to convert people to become followers of Yeshua, read references to fire and judgment in the Bible to mean that people who did not convert to their version of Yeshua's theology would not simply die--they would be thrown into a fire that would burn eternally. They based this belief on the pagan descriptions of a hell at the time.

http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm

You say you disagree but you don't even want to agree, you won't even take this point of view into consideration and ask the holy spirit what his opinion on the matter is with total honesty and consideration of my point of view. I've consider your point of view before and I've believed it. But after doing A LOT of research on the matter, my mind is at ease. What good is it doing believing in eternal hell? Even if you're wrong, how is it going to hurt the faith if it's still la place of torture nobody wants to go to?

 

[jasoncran]

because i dont buy that its men tradition. men that have spoken greek and hebrew have reaserched that

you say that light thing like the new age idea.

jesus is the light of the world, that we agree but in another post(other thread) you mention that its better to help others then to preach to them.i think both is needed when the season is needed.



heaven is also close the idea lysian fields , so is heaven false as well?

 

[ORwarriOR]

because i dont buy that its men tradition. men that have spoken greek and hebrew have reaserched that

you say that light thing like the new age idea.

jesus is the light of the world, that we agree but in another post(other thread) you mention that its better to help others then to preach to them.i think both is needed when the season is needed.



heaven is also close the idea lysian fields , so is heaven false as well?

Read that article I posted. Please. For all our sakes. Like I said the holy spirit pulled me to him because I was a very lost sheep. And I've been praying for wisdom and truths to be revealed because I've submitted myself to his will totally. And this is the message I feel he wants me to help get out.

You don't buy that it's created by man because you've been brainwashed by man. I let the holy spirit dictate my thoughts and feelings about certain things. I am in no way influenced by other men, unless they speak truths that I can recognize through proof and the holy spirit.

Christs #1 goal was showing kindness. Preaching comes after kindness.

 

[ORwarriOR]

You're right men who have spoken hebrew and greek have researched it. A long time ago and came to it's conclusions well before me, it's just nobody wants to accept it. Because nobody trusts the power of the light. Meaning nobody trusts God to do God's work.

(Summary from The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment by Thomas B. Thayer, 1855)

Thomas Thayer explains that some Jews, especially among the common people, had borrowed the concept of Hades from the Pagans, with fires, demons, and torment. However, the Jewish Rabbis and Jesus did not mean to suggest that superstition when they used the words translated as "hell." Clearly, the Old Testament writers did not have that in mind, and Jesus did not either.

Hell has been used by over-zealous Christian preachers for centuries to frighten their flocks into obedience. But it has no basis in scripture.

 

[jasoncran]

really so only you have the entire bible correct. i have learned not to do that.

and no men teach you? really in your own words that you attend a baptist church so they are affecting you, if you listen to something long enough over and over it will affect you, thus the need to guard your heart.

when i read my bible after conversion this is how i know that i was being taught proper doctrine.

what i read was taught upon in regular service or in sunday school and i knew enough to add to the message in sunday school. that is how i know , others that didnt know what book i was reading but he lord knew .

i asked about the rapture before i believed it.

 

[jasoncran]

so tell me how in your hate of the church, have you ever seen us not try to reach them?

so how to tell them? do we not tell them that sin is bad. fyi the hebrews of today dont have an unified concept of the after life, they dont concern themselves with that.

i looked that up on the idea of the purgatory.

so we use fear, really. lets see
i guess the bible must be off

for the FEAR of the lord is the begining of all wisdom

hmm in that case its reverence.

 

[jasoncran]

dantes inferno when was that written?

 

[ORwarriOR]

really so only you have the entire bible correct. i have learned not to do that.

and no men teach you? really in your own words that you attend a baptist church so they are affecting you, if you listen to something long enough over and over it will affect you, thus the need to guard your heart.

when i read my bible after conversion this is how i know that i was being taught proper doctrine.

what i read was taught upon in regular service or in sunday school and i knew enough to add to the message in sunday school. that is how i know , others that didnt know what book i was reading but he lord knew .

i asked about the rapture before i believed it.

I go to a baptist church but I guard my heart and whenever I disagree with something they preach I certainly don't put it in the back of my mind. I dwell on it and prove it wrong if I can, and if not I accept it. I go to church to worship/pay my respects to Christ and God, and visit with my awesome aunt and uncle. How can you assume all Churches teach the correct doctrine when there's so many different denominations? Our churches have become corrupted with darkness. We need to let the light shine again. And that involves in putting all of Christ's teachings into action, every one of us; and stop dwelling on the pagan concept of eternal hell. Fear worked until people just outright stopped believing in it. The gospel is out, we need to teach with love now. Trust God to do God's work.

As far as the inferno goes:

The concept of a hell of torment with these remarkable complexities did not exist before the church added the inferno, purgatory, and the limbos. It simply isn't in the New Testament, written in the decades prior to 110 CE. Detailed explanations of this development of the hell myth follow.

If Gaheena still remains a place of terrible punishment in which people must suffer greatly before dying off completely, why then wouldn't they be afraid of that still?

 

[jasoncran]

so you only hear what you agree with. well that will affect you.

show me a verse that no men is to teach the bible. and that only the hs direclty is the teacher.

its a combo of both, buddy.

 

[ORwarriOR]

Oh even better dantes inferno wasn't written until fourteenth century.

 

[ORwarriOR]

so you only hear what you agree with. well that will affect you.

show me a verse that no men is to teach the bible. and that only the hs direclty is the teacher.

its a combo of both, buddy.

King James Bible
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:11

I hear all things, if I don't agree with something I try to prove it wrong with scripture, and if I can't I accept it.

 

[jasoncran]

because you seem to make a big issue of out it, and that limbo thing and so is based on the catholic idea, not the bible based one.

limbo,purgotory(while the jew believes that) isnt in the nt.

please that is in reference to the ot priests and the ot convenent

 

[jasoncran]

King James Bible
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:11

I hear all things, if I don't agree with something I try to prove it wrong with scripture, and if I can't I accept it.[/quote]
ok,it ok to double check the pastor but this where you err, and

ephesians 4:11 and he gave some apostles.and some,prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors, and some TEACHERS.

so if men arent to be taught by another man then i guess paul statement there is wrong. or added in by men to make poor doctrine.