Must we suffer?

[ORwarriOR]

if the aeon, doenst mean eternal,then how can heavean for the saved be eternal?

What if it's not? And what if the power of letting this darkness spread can kill that dream? But trust me, light always wins over darkness

Also aeon refers to an indefinte period of time. Not eternity anyway. I'm sure spending any time in gaheena would seem like an aeon, but aeon simply means a very long time.

really, lets define what light means to you.

first, then we can continue.

No you wanted to define an Aeon, and an Aeon is a very long period of time, it never refers to an eternity.

Sorry I edited it in late.

Like they said, it is from the Greek ????, and refers to a long period of time (frequently described metaphorically as 1000 years). It was used by the Greeks in different ways. The most common use was as a description of the ages of human history, usually with the understanding that each age began and ended with a significant divine event.

Each aeon begins and ends with a significant divine event. Who's to say the aeons for heaven and gaheena are the same? Is that ever hinted at? Light to me means love, and total disregard for darkness. Eternal hell is a very dark thought.

 

[ORwarriOR]

Here
1. an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time ;

If you every one is punished according to their own sins, how can you measure the punishment for each?

 

[jasoncran]

so love will win over hate.

hmm not totally biblical.

For god is love, yes, but at the same time holy and full of wrath.

if you doubt, i doubt death by the flood, fires, and war is very gentile way to do away with the wicked.

the lord said about the judgement of isreal that he wouldnt pity them in their deaths.

meaning that he wouldnt change his mind after the last call to repent.

 

[jasoncran]

doesnt it not say that in revalation that the wicked choose death rather then face the wrath of the lamb.
they ask that the mountains fall on them, and if i recall that death itself runs from them.

rather simply repent,they choose death, and they dont find it.

hmm odd. if that isnt a means of judgement.

 

[ORwarriOR]

so love will win over hate.

hmm not totally biblical.

For god is love, yes, but at the same time holy and full of wrath.

if you doubt, i doubt death by the flood, fires, and war is very gentile way to do away with the wicked.

the lord said about the judgement of isreal that he wouldnt pity them in their deaths.

meaning that he wouldnt change his mind after the last call to repent.

God's wrath punishes the wicked. And he did so with mercy. He didn't torture them to death endlessly now did he? Did those wicked people suffer completely disproportionately to their behavior? I know the Isrealites suffered as long as they kept disobeying God, that much is true, but they were constantly rebellions, and they didn't always suffer either.

An eternity implies something that can't be measured and is completely unjust according to all justice of punishment God indicates that he carries out. An eternity cannot be measured whatsoever. An Aeon can be measured after it ends. And that makes sense. Because God is merciful, just, and fair. He punishes people in accordance to their wicked deeds against them. He doesn't torture endlessly whether he has reason to or not. God loves justice, and mercy, and sometimes his justice does include wrath, but it's still justice

 

[jasoncran]

so then why does the lord talk about sodom and gommorah still waiting judgement, when he compares the cities of capernahum, corazin to them.
he did even mention that if he came to the cities of sodom and gommorah, that they would have repented.odd.

so the later will have the greater condemnation then the former.

 

[ORwarriOR]

so then why does the lord talk about sodom and gommorah still waiting judgement, when he compares the cities of capernahum, corazin to them.
he did even mention that if he came to the cities of sodom and gommorah, that they would have repented.odd.

so the later will have the greater condemnation then the former.

Because they were very wicked and will be punished according to their deeds. The bible clearly indicates the nature of those cities. And when you compare to things are they always exactly the same? They would have repented because I'm sure they would have liked the gift of everlasting life. But instead they chose death, and because they haven't been judged yet they haven't been thrown into the fires of Gaheena. I'm not saying Gaheena isn't bad, but I'm saying it goes against the very nature of the Lord and his endless mercy to assume it's going to be eternal, and to assume everyone has to endure the exact same duration in gaheena regardless of their sins.

 

[jasoncran]

all sin leads to death does it not.

romans 3:23 for the wages of sin is death.

so a lie that is unrepented of is the same to the lord as a murder that is unrepented of. both demand justice

look for any verse that says that he will judge and condemn men differently for thier sins.

what faith are you, some of your thinking is either catholic or universalism.

 

[ORwarriOR]

all sin leads to death does it not.

romans 3:23 for the wages of sin is death.

so a lie that is unrepented of is the same to the lord as a murder that is unrepented of. both demand justice

look for any verse that says that he will judge and condemn men differently for thier sins.

what faith are you, some of your thinking is either catholic or universalism.

All unrepented sins lead to death; where does it say endless torture? And where does it indicate in that verse what happens after death?

My faith lies in God, the holy scripture, and personal and objective research to confirm or rebuke any theories I have about my faith. I go to a baptist church but I don't consider myself part of any denomination because Christianity is supposed to be about unity under Christ. I'm not a universalist, I'm more inclined to call myself an Annihilationist because I think wicket souls are simply snuffed out. If I'm wrong on that then I'm wrong, and I'd gladly accept universalism if that's the case, but I won't know until I've died and passed my judgment.

What I do know is that there is enough scriptural evidence, and moral evidence to suggest that God would never torture anyone for an eternity, because he punishes people according to their sins. And like I said I could never enjoy heaven if it meant other people had to suffer for an eternity. And if ultimately it is the case (which I know it isn't) then I would trade my eternity in paradise and have my soul snuffed out in exchange for all the souls eternally damned because there would be millions upon millions of people suffering according to your beliefs. I care more about justice and mercy then I do endless happiness. Would you trade the same thing? Or would you be more concerned about your own happiness?

Now again I ask you, could you truly say you could be happy in heaven if you knew there were millions upon millions of people suffering the exact same fate just because they didn't share your belief? Even if these people never stole, lied deceitfully, murdered, or committed adultery? That's not justice, that's just sadistic.

Are you saying Ghandi deserves the same fate as hitler?

 

[jasoncran]

they sent themselves there, not me. take it up with the lord.

so this verse what does it mean,

and revalation 21:8 "but the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable . and murders and the whoremongers.. shall have thier part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:which is the second death.

what is also there, satan and and his unholy trinity, and and all demons.

so when we die according to you that satan shares the same fate.poof nothing

odd when that is described, and what the lord talked more about that then heaven, and what of the parable of the rich man and lazarus.

i dont want no person to go to hell, but if they fail to repent then that is by thier decision

you never answered my question of which demonation are you?

 

[Drew]

I would say yes, but only because we sin. If we stop sinning, as Jesus commanded, then we stop suffering.

Excellent question, although I do not share your conclusion.

I think that the Scriptures teach that our lives must "echo the cross". On the cross, Jesus took the path of suffering to substantively defeat sin and death. We are called to imitate this, and I suggest that everytime a Christian suffers, we are following the gospel path and winning a small victory over the power of sin and death which, although substantially dealt with on the cross, is still at work in the world.

Jesus accomplished the substantial victory over the enemy, but there is still a "mopping up" operation going on and I think we are, sadly perhaps, called to suffer to that end.

 

[ORwarriOR]

they sent themselves there, not me. take it up with the lord.

so this verse what does it mean,

and revalation 21:8 "but the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable . and murders and the whoremongers.. shall have thier part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:which is the second death.

what is also there, satan and and his unholy trinity, and and all demons.

so when we die according to you that satan shares the same fate.poof nothing

odd when that is described, and what the lord talked more about that then heaven, and what of the parable of the rich man and lazarus.

i dont want no person to go to hell, but if they fail to repent then that is by thier decision

you never answered my question of which demonation are you?

I don't have a denomination. I heard the call to repent directly from the holy spirit, I was a very lost sheep and he saved me I thought I was talking to myself in the car, but it didn't feel like it was me talking. You can call me crazy but I know a lot of people have attested to the fact that sometimes the holy spirit will talk through them and it doesn't even feel like it's them.And I haven't had any more anxiety attacks, suffered depression, or any weird episodes since so *shrug*. Since then I've read through the whole bible minus about 100 pages in the new testament. I go to a baptist church every sunday but I don't agree with all their teachings. I have total faith in the Holy spirit and I consider him my #1 teacher. I don't have a "Denomination" because I don't believe in the teachings of man, since man can be corrupted.

For you to say "They sent themselves there so take it up with the lord" assumes that you just stopped caring about them, and would lead me to believe you don't truly love your neighbor as you love yourself. I would hate to make assumptions but I am basing it off the word of the Lord, and I would like to rebuke you for your sins, just as the Lord has taught me. Your neighbors include non-believers too, and anyone that I love I couldn't bear see suffer for an eternity. So again I ask you, are you more concerned with eternal paradise? Or would you trade it too to save suffering souls?

Also revelation speaks of them being thrown into the lake of fire. It only says satan and his minions would be tortured endlessly. It says that's the second death. It doesn't say satan would experience the second death. If the first death means that people would remain unconscious until the day of judgement, wouldn't the second death snuff their souls out and thus make them unconscious after that?

 

[jasoncran]

drew i agree with that for the most part.

 

[watchman F]

Peter and Paul and the rest of the apostles suffered because they lived during very dark times. Think about what kind of world they lived in. They lived in a world of immorality, sin and darkness. Their main purpose was to bring light to the world through the teachings of Jesus Christ. That light has spread so much throughout the world and our way of living has changed dramatically since then. We don't NEED to suffer anymore, but we still need to put Christ's teachings into action. If you sin it hurts yourself, and it hurts the people around you. Odds are if you're suffering it's a result of sin or the sin of someone else. We have light in the world now, it's just our duty to keep it together

Is this a joke???? The times we live in now are just as immoral, sinful and dark as any time in Earth History. ORwarriOR, you can be being serious.

 

[ORwarriOR]

Peter and Paul and the rest of the apostles suffered because they lived during very dark times. Think about what kind of world they lived in. They lived in a world of immorality, sin and darkness. Their main purpose was to bring light to the world through the teachings of Jesus Christ. That light has spread so much throughout the world and our way of living has changed dramatically since then. We don't NEED to suffer anymore, but we still need to put Christ's teachings into action. If you sin it hurts yourself, and it hurts the people around you. Odds are if you're suffering it's a result of sin or the sin of someone else. We have light in the world now, it's just our duty to keep it together

Is this a joke???? The times we live in now are just as immoral, sinful and dark as any time in Earth History. ORwarriOR, you can be being serious.

I am serious. Was medicine as effective back then? Wars were more prevalent (and painful mind you, we are much more humane nowadays with the way we fight), rulers got away with being dark and ruthless for much longer. Look at rome, and nero. There was much more suffering in the world back then than there is now. People are generally more humane nowadays, and we have Christ to thank for that. Unless you're saying Christ failed his mission, and all his teachers were good for nothing?

 

[watchman F]

Peter and Paul and the rest of the apostles suffered because they lived during very dark times. Think about what kind of world they lived in. They lived in a world of immorality, sin and darkness. Their main purpose was to bring light to the world through the teachings of Jesus Christ. That light has spread so much throughout the world and our way of living has changed dramatically since then. We don't NEED to suffer anymore, but we still need to put Christ's teachings into action. If you sin it hurts yourself, and it hurts the people around you. Odds are if you're suffering it's a result of sin or the sin of someone else. We have light in the world now, it's just our duty to keep it together

Is this a joke???? The times we live in now are just as immoral, sinful and dark as any time in Earth History. ORwarriOR, you can be being serious.

I am serious. Was medicine as effective back then? Wars were more prevalent (and painful mind you, we are much more humane nowadays with the way we fight), rulers got away with being dark and ruthless for much longer. Look at rome, and nero. There was much more suffering in the world back then than there is now. People are generally more humane nowadays, and we have Christ to thank for that. Unless you're saying Christ failed his mission, and all his teachers were good for nothing?

You are living in a fog people are getting worse not better.

 

[watchman F]

Do you love people, even your enemies, as the Lord taught us to do?

Yes I do

Then I doubt if most people hate you.

Jesus loved His enemies and they hated Him.

 

[jasoncran]

late term abortions
yup thats humane

abortion all together thats humane too
sex trafficing.
this is in western countries

if i went into the tyrannical goverments and the muslims countries let see

killing of gays
murder of the saints
killing of the those that want freedom and are political dissidents
abortion again in some commie countries by force.
lets see more the gassing of certain races by hussien, and hitler, and the mass purges by mao,pol pot and stalin.
slavery
and also the dhalits.
yup we are better!

 

[ORwarriOR]

You are living in a fog people are getting worse not better.

They were getting better for a long time, until people started putting more faith in science than the Lord, due to our ever increasing knowledge. Most people don't have a reason to fear the Lord now a days because they just simply don't believe in hell. And by going around trying to FORCE them to believe by trying to scare them into an eternity of torment, we're doing more harm than the good we would be doing if we simply acted like Christ.

 

[ORwarriOR]

late term abortions
yup thats humane

abortion all together thats humane too
sex trafficing.
this is in western countries

if i went into the tyrannical goverments and the muslims countries let see

killing of gays
murder of the saints
killing of the those that want freedom and are political dissidents
abortion again in some commie countries by force.
lets see more the gassing of certain races by hussien, and hitler, and the mass purges by mao,pol pot and stalin.
slavery
and also the dhalits.
yup we are better!

Sometimes I wish I was aborted before I ever had to enter this terrible world. Because then I would have died completely free of sin. I've made my point clear. If you want to cloud your mind with darkness and man-made doctrines which completely go against the image of our wonderful God, and by doing such soiling his name. Then by all means. But me, I'll go ahead and simply live like Christ instead of trying to justify a belief in total lack of justice.

Don't try to take my words out of context either, I think abortion is wrong, but I also think blowing up abortion clinics is worse, and so is teaching kids to practice safe sex instead of teaching the importance of abstinence. Because teaching safe sex just teaches them to go ahead and do it. If we explained to them how sex blinds true love, and how it can lead to bigger hurts such as pregnancy and broken hearts I think it'd be more effective.