Must we suffer?

[watchman F]

You are living in a fog people are getting worse not better.

They were getting better for a long time, until people started putting more faith in science than the Lord, due to our ever increasing knowledge. Most people don't have a reason to fear the Lord now a days because they just simply don't believe in hell. And by going around trying to FORCE them to believe by trying to scare them into an eternity of torment, we're doing more harm than the good we would be doing if we simply acted like Christ.

Hell exist whether you or the outright sinner believes in it or not.

God's words says we need to save some by fear, and others by kindness. What is needful is to have discernment to know with whom to do what, and to remember to do both or either in love.

Jude
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[watchman F]

Sometimes I wish I was aborted before I ever had to enter this terrible world. Because then I would have died completely free of sin.

And I thought you said the world was a wonderful place, not like times past when believers actually suffered for their faith.

 

[jasoncran]

Since then I've read through the whole bible minus about 100 pages in the new testament. I go to a baptist church every sunday but I don't agree with all their teachings. I have total faith in the Holy spirit and I consider him my #1 teacher. I don't have a "Denomination" because I don't believe in the teachings of man, since man can be corrupted.
odd, was the writers of hebrew wrong when he said let us not forsake the assembling of together as some have. let me ask you this, that very bible you read was put together by men that after research and prayer put it together. the bible itself doenst call itseld the bible now does it.
i was a jw, odd since i was too shown much by the hs to change my pov. i didnt believe in the trinity,hell, and also the idea of heaven for all. nor did i believe that isreal was to return as a nation. and have an end time purpose or the idea that the lord died on the cross etc.

Your neighbors include non-believers too, and anyone that I love I couldn't bear see suffer for an eternity. So again I ask you, are you more concerned with eternal paradise? Or would you trade it too to save suffering souls? no, they commit the crime and sadly dont accept the blood of the lord, they must pay the price, they choose to go to hell by that.

Also revelation speaks of them being thrown into the lake of fire. It only says satan and his minions would be tortured endlessly. It says that's the second death. It doesn't say satan would experience the second death. If the first death means that people would remain unconscious until the day of judgement, wouldn't the second death snuff their souls out and thus make them unconscious after that?
now that is the are that jesus talks bout the gnashing of death and outer darkness, hell is meant for satan orginally and was enlarged for men

 

[jasoncran]

i never said that we shouldnt try to change the culture,

but we should be teaching the teens proper biblical pov on what sex is not how to do it like the likes of ppl does.

i believe in a balenced approach and not just teach hell but how to live for the lord and also how to avoid the pitfall of sins

hmm nowhere did i even mention that we are to take action in our hands and kill the abortion providers that is sin as well, and if a christian thinks that is ok, and acts on that he hasnt the love of the lord in his heart and needs to repent

i used to deliver a paper to the very ppl clinic in my hometown. it wasnt easy for me,but my job is to throw papers first and not preach the gospel, do that after the job is done.

 

[elijah23]

Excellent question, although I do not share your conclusion.

I think that the Scriptures teach that our lives must "echo the cross". On the cross, Jesus took the path of suffering to substantively defeat sin and death. We are called to imitate this, and I suggest that everytime a Christian suffers, we are following the gospel path and winning a small victory over the power of sin and death which, although substantially dealt with on the cross, is still at work in the world.

Jesus accomplished the substantial victory over the enemy, but there is still a "mopping up" operation going on and I think we are, sadly perhaps, called to suffer to that end.

It seems to me the less I sin, the less I suffer.

 

[jasoncran]

jesus had no sin , still he suffered.

no christian is gauranteed a suffer free life for living the bible out , only that he will be rewarded in heaven for his walk.

 

[elijah23]

jesus had no sin , still he suffered.

no christian is gauranteed a suffer free life for living the bible out , only that he will be rewarded in heaven for his walk.

In what ways did Jesus suffer?

 

[jasoncran]

jesus had no sin , still he suffered.

no christian is gauranteed a suffer free life for living the bible out , only that he will be rewarded in heaven for his walk.

In what ways did Jesus suffer?

surely you know,

the 39 lashes with the cat of nine tails
the crown of thorns, and also the carrying of the cross, and the cross itself
and being struck before hand all of that.

all for sins that he never commited.

 

[ORwarriOR]

I'll ask you one more time, could you truly enjoy heaven if people were all suffering the same punishment JUST for not sharing your beliefs? Even if these people never lied for self gain, stole, committed murder, or adultery. And if so how can you say you love your neighbor? That's not justice that's just sadistic. The greek words used in the bible originally never indicated any sort of place of eternal torment, when it was translated to English hell took it's own meaning and that's where all these false doctrines come from.

Saying it's their fault not yours completely takes mercy out of the picture. How can you say you love mercy when you say it's their fault so who cares
He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

And do you believe in hell because that's what the holy spirit told you? Or because that's what someone else taught you, and then you put blind faith in it and strengthened that belief? Do you put more faith in the English translation, or do you put more faith in the original meaning of the words it was translated from?

The word Aeon means indefinite. It can be measured after it's been completed. When Jesus was talking about the place, do you think he would have been able to use any other word to describe it so broadly, and yet still be able to used to indicate it for everyone sent there? While still maintaining the justice and the mercy of our God? How can you call your God merciful as he's described himself, when he would endlessly torture someone without mercy? He said he'd punish someone sevenfold for the sin he committed, he has never said he would punish someone endlessly and unfairly.

I'm done posting here if you don't even want to consider the evidence against it. If you want to put blind faith in a concept that has no REAL biblical support then go ahead and do so, but be warned, you're putting your faith in man, and not God. I'm not trying to rule out the concept of Hell. I KNOW Gaheena exists, and I have faith in that. What I don't have faith in, is the blind disregard for the mercy of the Lord. It just doesn't make sense at all. Why is it so hard to accept that you could be wrong based on so much evidence, and that our God is loving merciful and just? And not some sadistic nightmare that tortures people for eternity :/

If people could just accept this, then we COULD change our culture, we could change the face and image of our Churches because we could make our primary focus on acting like Christ and not just "saving people from eternal torment". Do you really think it would be a bad thing, if everyone just acted like Christ?

 

[elijah23]

surely you know,

the 39 lashes with the cat of nine tails
the crown of thorns, and also the carrying of the cross, and the cross itself
and being struck before hand all of that.

all for sins that he never commited.

Also, he suffered because, though he never sinned against anybody, people hated him, forsook him, and caused trouble for him. Right? And this was the worst of it, I would think.

Still, the suffering that comes from physical and emotional abuse doesn’t compare with the suffering we bring on ourselves when we sin, does it?

 

[jasoncran]

so,can you read greek and hebrew on your own?

so by your own experiental you dont accept it. odd when that verse in jude supports hell

so by softening up the idea of hell we would get more followers? then osteen should have the largest chruch and so does rick warren, yet when you look at the others that do preach the need to repent and be saved.and add them up they are larger. to what are we saved from? death. why call it salvation , and how did the lord descend into earth to preach to the dead when theres no place for their souls


i take no joy in the death of sinners but i dont make the rules the lord did.

do you really believe the bible? are you here to preach that we arent the only way. you sound like the athiest in this, how can a loving god exclude all those persons.

we dont change persons the lord does.
what else should we soften up, the idea of what sin is.

 

[jasoncran]

why do you assume that i dont care for the lost by believing in hell?
most ministers that beleive in it want no one to go there. i have seen my paster literally cry for the sins that the church does and also the sinner. he begs the lord for mercy.

my grandma is jewish and i hope that she repents, i shudder her not knowing the lord. my bro has told her about the lord and she has listened, but i havent heard anything else.

when i gave my heart to the lord, i forgot all that i was taught and relearned what the lord showed me while reading my bible and also the pastor at church preached with my bible open. can i be wrong and i have been but i believe hell is very real.

 

[jasoncran]

if hell is only death and nothing to do with satan in the sense that he wants other to join him there.
then why does the lord say upon this rock will i build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against that?

 

[ORwarriOR]

I never said hell wasn't real and only death.I said Gaheena is a place of horrible punishment that nobody would want to go to. But I will forever assert to the fact that it is not eternal based on scriptural evidence and the mercy of the lord.

 

[jasoncran]

I never said hell wasn't real and only death.I said Gaheena is a place of horrible punishment that nobody would want to go to. But I will forever assert to the fact that it is not eternal based on scriptural evidence and the mercy of the lord.

ok so its not eternal? when the word aeon is used? for that as well.

so when the bible speaks of the judgments via the flood. was that a quick death.
in cold water the brain can and does function for 20 minutes after death, you are aware that you are done.
or the fact that the babylonians poked zedekiah eyes out, that was rather tortures and killed his children before his eyes, those were judgments too.

or the fact that the death fire while quick hardly humane. would you allow the federal governemt to execute by fire?

 

[ORwarriOR]

I never said hell wasn't real and only death.I said Gaheena is a place of horrible punishment that nobody would want to go to. But I will forever assert to the fact that it is not eternal based on scriptural evidence and the mercy of the lord.

ok so its not eternal? when the word aeon is used? for that as well.

so when the bible speaks of the judgments via the flood. was that a quick death.
in cold water the brain can and does function for 20 minutes after death, you are aware that you are done.
or the fact that the babylonians poked zedekiah eyes out, that was rather tortures and killed his children before his eyes, those were judgments too.

or the fact that the death fire while quick hardly humane. would you allow the federal governemt to execute by fire?

But things eventually die. If it's punishment then it's punishment. I'm not going to argue with the lords punishment. But he does eventually put things out of their misery. It goes against all logic of mercy that he wouldn't. And if he didn't, like I said, I know for 100% sure that I wouldn't be able to enjoy heaven. I am a Christian (certainly not an atheist like you hinted at), I've accepted Christ as my savior and I know the holy spirit resides in me. And I KNOW I couldn't enjoy heaven if this was the case. It certainly wouldn't be a good place if that was the case...

 

[jasoncran]

the point being that some werent quick death for some. it had a measure of suffering to it.

 

[ORwarriOR]

the point being that some werent quick death for some. it had a measure of suffering to it.

But it could still be measured, and they still died. An aeon can be measured after it's completed. After someone dies in hell you can measure the Aeon.

American King James Version
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

 

[jasoncran]

the point being that some werent quick death for some. it had a measure of suffering to it.

But it could still be measured, and they still died. An aeon can be measured after it's completed. After someone dies in hell you can measure the Aeon.

American King James Version
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

you could say the same about heaven after all that is eternal as well(aeon).

cast him into outer darkness where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.and the worm that dieth not.

i wonder what the worm that dieth not means.

 

[ORwarriOR]

the point being that some werent quick death for some. it had a measure of suffering to it.

But it could still be measured, and they still died. An aeon can be measured after it's completed. After someone dies in hell you can measure the Aeon.

American King James Version
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

you could say the same about heaven after all that is eternal as well(aeon).

cast him into outer darkness where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.and the worm that dieth not.

i wonder what the worm that dieth not means.

It means the fires of Gaheena burn forever. But the souls therein do not. Why would Christ specifically say the soul could be destroyed if he didn't mean it?