My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

[Guest]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

It's ALL about what Christ has done, and what he did on the cross for you. Questioning that is your first mistake.

I'm afraid you are wrong, urk.

I say this with love, I want to point to you the biblical truth - that we participate in our salvation. This is why some people are at different levels in their holiness/sanctification. This is why ALL men are not saved, despite this being God's will, according to Paul. This is why some people fall away from the faith, as Paul and Jesus both state.

And this is why YOU and I are judged upon our deaths, not Jesus Christ. We ALL will stand before Christ and be judged. US. Not Him. For if it were "all Jesus", then NO ONE would go to hell and there is no point in judgment. One of the clearest and most prominent themes in the NT is final judgment based upon what we do here and how we cooperate/participate in His grace. Not what Jesus does.

Regards

First of all, I know all men are not saved. I'm not sure why you think I think that. Secondly, when I say it is about what Jesus did, I'm talking about coming to salvation. After salvation, it's our responsibility to stay close to God. All I'm saying is that if we make mistakes or drift away, we cannot lose our salvation. God will draw us back.

 

[gr8grace]

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

 

[gr8grace]

Re: How secure are we in Christ?
The Family of God Rationale

Every believer becomes a part of God’s family as a son of God at salvation and therefore becomes a member of God’s royal family in the Church Age as in Galatians 3:26.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)


The verb “are” in the Greek is eime which is an absolute status quo verb and means it will always be this way. The verb’s mood in the Greek is a mood of reality and means you always keep on being sons of God (i.e., eternal security). The Greek word here for “sons” is huios and means sons of God. This means both male and female persons are sons of God. This came from the Roman custom of adopting a son into their family. This was true of Nero. He was adopted into a Roman family.

In application to our spiritual way of life, when we expressed faith alone in Christ alone, we were brought into God’s relationship sphere for eternity which is the family of God. We are adults positionally at the moment of salvation through faith only in Him and apart from any merit or works on our part. This is placing our complete reliance in God. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior to be saved. This is the family of God approach. We are born through regeneration into the royal family of God and we cannot be unborn out of it any more than we can be physically unborn.

Every one of us has a father and a mother. Once we are born into that family, we remain in that family no matter what we say or do in our life. Therefore, once we become part of the family of God, we forever remain in the family of God. Some believers or sons of God will turn out to be spiritually mature, but most will not due to their own decisions not to consistently follow God’s plan for their lives. All are given equal opportunity, but not all take God up on it. No matter what we do, however, none of us can leave God’s family. This is eternal security.

As members of God’s royal family, we all are joint heirs with Jesus Christ in that we share His destiny as in Romans 8:16-17, Titus 3:7, and Galatians 4:7. We will always be an heir of God no matter how we succeed or how we may fail.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. (Romans 8:16-17)

that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. (Galatians 4:7)

 

[Brother Mike]

Grappler:

I disagree. You just don't want to accept John 6:37 do you? "ALL that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." This one little verse kills your arguement.

Jesus said once they come to him he will never cast them out. That is why i love that verse so much...it supports the sovereignty of God over salvation and it supports eternal security.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Your breaking a rule of interpretation the Holy Spirit gave us. This causes a lot of error when reading the Word without light of other scriptures. As much as you "LOVE" this one verse there are other verses.

1) you missed that God provided salvation to the "WHOLE" world as a gift for whosoever believes (Many scriptures backing that). He wishes NOBODY perishes but ALL come to repentance.
2) You missed that the Word was God, and where the Word is heard is God calling. If you don't believe in "TRINITY" fine but God and His Word are the same for who will hear and believe.
3) You missed the above scripture and beat up your "FAVORITE" scripture.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

He that will come. Whosoever will believe. Who receives the grace of God by faith. He that responds will never thirst.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me (Read above and compare) I will in no wise cast out.

All the father has specifically given to me and those that just respond and come to me by faith in the free grace provided, I will not cast out. Jesus is speaking about those he mentioned above, not in chapter in verse.

Nothing in the scripture denotes that one can not on their own leave. It says one that no matter how unbalanced, imperfect that still believes on him will not be cast out.

I suggest before making a belief out of one scripture, you take the time to check other scriptures. It will help in understanding things.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

... there is not one single scripture in the entire New Testament that show any particular named believer as 'eternally lost and then went or are headed to the Lake of Fire.' Not a one.

Heb 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,
and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:29-31
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 12:14
Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord ...
Side note: Paul says BACs are holy, but here he encourages people to pursue it.

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

2 Pet 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb:
“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Rev 21:7-8
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8)
Jesus says we must be overcomers like He overcame ...
Rev 3:21 ... To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I'm getting tired, plus I prefer to do stuff in "7"s ...
... may I stop now, or should I list another group of 7?

My comment stands. There is not one named believer in any of the above provided as an example of what such view as a certainty of falling away. Not a one.

Can a believer become blinded/captive again by the 'god of this world?'

of course. happens all the time.

Does that mean God in Christ ever left them?

No.

s

 

[Guest]

OSAS is truth. Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

Smaller:

Can a believer become blinded/captive again by the 'god of this world?'

of course. happens all the time.

Does that mean God in Christ ever left them?

I don't question that once a child of God, then always a child of God. Even if you don't do a ounce of what God told you to do, your works are tried by fire and are burnt up, yet still saved and most likely handed a push broom with no rewards once in heaven.

The question is in Hebrews 6 and 10 where people were leaving God, denouncing him to practice Judaism again. They did so once they knew what they were doing. Even John said there is a sin unto death and don't pray for that one (Idol's) Would not a person have a choice to not want to be saved and find another god or religion such as Tao, or Muslim? If you believe in election then skip the question no point in bothering.

Mike.

 

[dadof10]

How many times can i be born-again?

Once, at water baptism.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3)

This is initial salvation and it is by Grace alone. Through sin, you can lose this salvation, which is NOT the same thing as becoming "un-born". Again, Jesus doesn't stretch the analogy to the point of being ridiculous.

You are wrong about water baptisim but that is another discussion....hey...that would be good topic for you to start. I do agree with you that one can only be born-again once though. The difference is i believe that once you are born-again you stay that way and you do not.

No. We do "stay that way". Once we are baptized, we are a new creation CAPABLE of entering Heaven. The difference between us is that you think "born-again" means OSAS and I don't. There are plenty of baptized (born again) people in Hell. Nowhere does Scripture teach that "born-again" means that a person will go directly to Heaven, no matter what.

My question now would be if i can lose my salvation through sin just how much sin does it take for God to say 'ok grappler...no salvation for you anymore'? Could you answer that so that i know just how much sin i can commit?

It depends upon the state of your soul at death. There are certain sins (mortal sins) that break communion with God immediately because they are so heinous and because it puts the soul in rebellion to God. Notice how I'm actually taking your question seriously even though it was written to be snarky?

Also if I do get my salvation taken from me as you say is possible....can i get it back?? Remember you said that one can only be born-again one time so it seems if i lose my salvation then it is over....no repentance...is that how it works?

Show me where being "born again" is a ticket to Heaven. Show me where "born-again" are guaranteed Heaven no matter what. "Saved" and "justified" mean going to Heaven, "born-again" does not. Paul makes it clear that EVERYONE will be judged by their deeds, even the "born-again believer".

"For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." (Rom 2)

Notice, no exceptions for "born again believers".

 

[francisdesales]

Your text twisting has destroyed the intent of the actual Scripture.

Just because a person is following Jesus does NOT mean that they were called by the Father. ALL who were called by the Father follow Jesus. All the elect follow Him. But it is poor logic to state that "because I follow Him" means that you are one of the elect. The Scripture just doesn't say that, it is simple logic. John 6:66 CLEARLY (to those who do not ignore the Scriptures) states that not EVERYONE who followed Jesus were of the elect. Now, apply that to yourself. Just because you follow Him NOW does not mean that verse 66 will not later be applied to you...

You have no Scriptural warrant to make the claim that SOME Scripture applies to you personally, while others cannot apply to you.




I'm afraid not. The separation of the sheep from the goats (yea, goats make the same sound...) occurs at the last judgment. NOWHERE does the Bible state that self-proclaimed sheep will escape this separation. Interestingly, the Scripture notes that there will be surprises, and it will be based upon what we did in life, our acts of love. NOWHERE does Matthew 25 speak of a OSAS paradigm, where Jesus says "Oh, well, you said you are sheep, so come on in, don't worry about what you did"...



Personally, if you want to "paraphrase" that Jesus is not God or that Jesus didn't die on the cross, Judas did, that is your perogative. Doesn't make it right. And I will continue to comment on your mistaken text-twisting.

Nowhere does the Bible state that an individual will not be cast out. It states that the ELECT will not be cast out.

Quite simply, you don't know you are of the elect to heaven. People follow Christ. Doesn't make them "elect". God knows whether they will fall away, and thus, they were not elect. Simply stating "I'm elect and cannot be cast out" is not biblically backed-up, and stating it over and over isn't making it true.

Sorry, but that "baaa" might be the sound of a goat. I hope it is not. But to state NOW that it is a sheep is to take away the Divine Sovereignty of God, Who ALONE judges men. We don't judge ourselves, Paul states.

I was wondering if you are nervous? You know....since you are waiting until the last judgment in order to find out if you are a sheep or a goat?

As long as I remain in Christ, I have confidence that I will be judged positively. 1 John 5:12.

I think what you are having a hard time grasping is that many who follow Jesus never were His to begin with. That is they were not saved to begin with. Judas Iscariot for example. Matthew 7:22,23 Jesus says that many who call me Lord...i will tell depart from me i never knew you. Just because someone follows Jesus does not make them his. It is only those who the Father gives Jesus are the ones that are truly of the flock and will never be told to depart from me. I know that i am one of the elect because of my relationship with my heavenly Father through Jesus and as i said before you dishonor me when you say that i can not know that i am one of the elect. But i forgive you. You see francis you look at salvation as depending on YOUR works my salvation depends on nothing i did or will do.

Whatever. Go back to your algebra homework...

 

[dadof10]

instead if getting indignant and angry

I'm not indignant or angery. But thanks for telling me how I feel.

So, is this it? Will you be answering my questions so I will know what you really think? You made a big deal out of my "misrepresenting your position". Now is your chance to set the record straight.

I thought your overreaction was a little dubious, maybe just a distraction. If you can't answer the questions, simply say so.

 

[MarkT]

The problem with your argument is Jesus never said once saved always saved. In fact he said many would fall away. Jesus said he would not lose any of his sheep, his sheep being his followers, that his sheep follow him and no one else. That's how we know who they are. They only follow Jesus. So since Jesus never said once saved always saved - it's not his teaching - you must be following the wrong man.

So here we have a situation where people are picking and choosing what they want to believe, ignoring the warnings, trampling the pasture which is intended for the sheep.

 

[chessman]

instead if getting indignant and angry

I'm not indignant or angery. But thanks for telling me how I feel.

So, is this it? Will you be answering my questions so I will know what you really think? You made a big deal out of my "misrepresenting your position". Now is your chance to set the record straight.

I thought your overreaction was a little dubious, maybe just a distraction. If you can't answer the questions, simply say so.

No, not until you agree never to tell me what i think, feel or misrepresent my exegesis. Call it overreaction if that's what you think. I think it's perfectly normal.

You didn't answer that question of mine.

 

[chessman]

The problem with your argument is Jesus never said once saved always saved. In fact he said many would fall away. Jesus said he would not lose any of his sheep, his sheep being his followers, that his sheep follow him and no one else. That's how we know who they are. They only follow Jesus. So since Jesus never said once saved always saved - it's not his teaching - you must be following the wrong man.

So here we have a situation where people are picking and choosing what they want to believe, ignoring the warnings, trampling the pasture which is intended for the sheep.

The Bible never says "trinity" either. We exegete that doctrine from Scripture.

 

[smaller]

Smaller:

Can a believer become blinded/captive again by the 'god of this world?'

of course. happens all the time.

Does that mean God in Christ ever left them?

I don't question that once a child of God, then always a child of God. Even if you don't do a ounce of what God told you to do, your works are tried by fire and are burnt up, yet still saved and most likely handed a push broom with no rewards once in heaven.

The question is in Hebrews 6 and 10 where people were leaving God, denouncing him to practice Judaism again. They did so once they knew what they were doing. Even John said there is a sin unto death and don't pray for that one (Idol's) Would not a person have a choice to not want to be saved and find another god or religion such as Tao, or Muslim? If you believe in election then skip the question no point in bothering.

Mike.

Hi Mike. I have come to understand this matter as follows, and it's quite simple.

If any of us understand that we can fall in this life to the deceptions of Satan and that our enemy is 'internal' i.e. through the avenue of temptation, when we see another fall, we should be cognizant that it is not just them there in their own head.

In this way I have continual sympathy for them and continual wariness for myself.

Paul exemplified this approach here for our examples:

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Timothy 2:
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Nothing makes me more sick than warriors in faith trying to eternally annihilate or heap burning alive forever upon fallen brethren. IN that effort such do their own hearts a dire ill.

No good soldier would ever ever seek such a thing, ever.

s

 

[smaller]

Believers who haven't sat down with the proof texts for the OSAS position would do themselves a favor and read them.

I made the observation earlier in this thread that the question itself is too simplistic anyway.

Paul gives us a very honest look at his own construction, here:

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If anyone can't see that there was Paul and also a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh what can I say?

Paul prevailed over that other working. That is what an overcomer does.

Was Paul OSAS? Uh, yes. Was that all that was going on, even within Paul? NO!

Only ONE of the parties was saved, Paul.

In believers who fall it is the OTHER PARTY who prevails over and upon them in this present life. Does that mean God in Christ is going to burn them alive forever? Assuredly not. Such that are fallen in this present life in DIVINE REALITY are doing their part in bringing DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the DEVIL AND his MESSENGERS. In this way every believer serves God and our enemies HANG at the cross in our own dead flesh.

Yes, we 'all' have a CROSS to bear and bear it we do whether we see it, perceive it or NOT.

s

 

[Brother Mike]

smaller

Such that are fallen in this present life in DIVINE REALITY are doing their part in bringing DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the DEVIL AND his MESSENGERS. In this way every believer serves God and our enemies HANG at the cross in our own dead flesh.

I was following along pretty well until this. One has to assume that we no longer have our own lust that Satan pulls on. Something we are told to put away. Then we are told not to give place to the devil. Resist the devil and submit to God. Jesus said I give you authority over the devil, and in Peter we are told to stand fast in faith against the devil.

So, what your saying is that we can safely (Not on earth but for eternal security sake.) ignore the Word of God in those areas, follow Satan, Leave God, and God likes that because He might not have enough cannon fodder to convict the devil without our disobedience to the Word, though the devil is cooked anyway.

Thank you for clearing that all up. I guess.

Mike.

 

[dadof10]

You didn't answer that question of mine.

Which one?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Grappler]

Your text twisting has destroyed the intent of the actual Scripture.

Just because a person is following Jesus does NOT mean that they were called by the Father. ALL who were called by the Father follow Jesus. All the elect follow Him. But it is poor logic to state that "because I follow Him" means that you are one of the elect. The Scripture just doesn't say that, it is simple logic. John 6:66 CLEARLY (to those who do not ignore the Scriptures) states that not EVERYONE who followed Jesus were of the elect. Now, apply that to yourself. Just because you follow Him NOW does not mean that verse 66 will not later be applied to you...

You have no Scriptural warrant to make the claim that SOME Scripture applies to you personally, while others cannot apply to you.




I'm afraid not. The separation of the sheep from the goats (yea, goats make the same sound...) occurs at the last judgment. NOWHERE does the Bible state that self-proclaimed sheep will escape this separation. Interestingly, the Scripture notes that there will be surprises, and it will be based upon what we did in life, our acts of love. NOWHERE does Matthew 25 speak of a OSAS paradigm, where Jesus says "Oh, well, you said you are sheep, so come on in, don't worry about what you did"...



Personally, if you want to "paraphrase" that Jesus is not God or that Jesus didn't die on the cross, Judas did, that is your perogative. Doesn't make it right. And I will continue to comment on your mistaken text-twisting.

Nowhere does the Bible state that an individual will not be cast out. It states that the ELECT will not be cast out.

Quite simply, you don't know you are of the elect to heaven. People follow Christ. Doesn't make them "elect". God knows whether they will fall away, and thus, they were not elect. Simply stating "I'm elect and cannot be cast out" is not biblically backed-up, and stating it over and over isn't making it true.

Sorry, but that "baaa" might be the sound of a goat. I hope it is not. But to state NOW that it is a sheep is to take away the Divine Sovereignty of God, Who ALONE judges men. We don't judge ourselves, Paul states.

I was wondering if you are nervous? You know....since you are waiting until the last judgment in order to find out if you are a sheep or a goat?

As long as I remain in Christ, I have confidence that I will be judged positively. 1 John 5:12.

I think what you are having a hard time grasping is that many who follow Jesus never were His to begin with. That is they were not saved to begin with. Judas Iscariot for example. Matthew 7:22,23 Jesus says that many who call me Lord...i will tell depart from me i never knew you. Just because someone follows Jesus does not make them his. It is only those who the Father gives Jesus are the ones that are truly of the flock and will never be told to depart from me. I know that i am one of the elect because of my relationship with my heavenly Father through Jesus and as i said before you dishonor me when you say that i can not know that i am one of the elect. But i forgive you. You see francis you look at salvation as depending on YOUR works my salvation depends on nothing i did or will do.

Whatever. Go back to your algebra homework...

Lol...with your immature insults you must be very young yourself. Is that all you got??

 

[Grappler]

No. We do "stay that way". Once we are baptized, we are a new creation CAPABLE of entering Heaven. The difference between us is that you think "born-again" means OSAS and I don't. There are plenty of baptized (born again) people in Hell. Nowhere does Scripture teach that "born-again" means that a person will go directly to Heaven, no matter what.

My question now would be if i can lose my salvation through sin just how much sin does it take for God to say 'ok grappler...no salvation for you anymore'? Could you answer that so that i know just how much sin i can commit?

It depends upon the state of your soul at death. There are certain sins (mortal sins) that break communion with God immediately because they are so heinous and because it puts the soul in rebellion to God. Notice how I'm actually taking your question seriously even though it was written to be snarky?

Also if I do get my salvation taken from me as you say is possible....can i get it back?? Remember you said that one can only be born-again one time so it seems if i lose my salvation then it is over....no repentance...is that how it works?

Show me where being "born again" is a ticket to Heaven. Show me where "born-again" are guaranteed Heaven no matter what. "Saved" and "justified" mean going to Heaven, "born-again" does not. Paul makes it clear that EVERYONE will be judged by their deeds, even the "born-again believer".

"For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." (Rom 2)

Notice, no exceptions for "born again believers".

To be born-again is to become a new creature in Christ. To be born-again is the same as having eternal life. Baptism has NOTHING to do with being born-again.

 

[francisdesales]

The problem with your argument is Jesus never said once saved always saved. In fact he said many would fall away. Jesus said he would not lose any of his sheep, his sheep being his followers, that his sheep follow him and no one else. That's how we know who they are. They only follow Jesus. So since Jesus never said once saved always saved - it's not his teaching - you must be following the wrong man.

So here we have a situation where people are picking and choosing what they want to believe, ignoring the warnings, trampling the pasture which is intended for the sheep.

Jesus never said anything about OSAS. He said people would fall away, people who even THOUGHT they were His disciples. He told people that they must love like HE did to be considered His disciples, not just claim to be His disciples.

But there's nothing to see here. Ignore all that. Ignore the words of the Word of God...

OSAS is true because the self-proclaimed sheep said so. They FEEL it. (sarcasm turned off)

Regards